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901  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What cryptocurrency do you have the most faith in the long term? on: January 18, 2015, 04:00:57 PM

*snip*

Some [altcoins] are very good ...

*snip*

So which one is your favourite?
902  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What cryptocurrency do you have the most faith in the long term? on: January 18, 2015, 03:53:46 PM
It is surprising to see NXT, NEM, XMR getting more votes than BTC.

Have people completely lost faith in Bitcoin?
Anonymous developer has left, account got hacked. Community takeover now, which always fails. Development stalled. Price declining steadily.

You have to ballance risks.

Which crypto are you referring to here?
903  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I'm dumping Nxt and here's why you should too on: January 18, 2015, 03:51:07 PM
In response to that (very sloppy) article:

Today I saw http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/13/Decentralization-of-Nxt-vs-BitShares/ and became interested by the title enough to spend some time on reading. The article is related to http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/07/The-Most-Decentralized-Proof-of-Stake-System/ and the both analyze the same phenomenon (decentralization), so I will treat them as a single article.

I'd like to comment some things mentioned in the articles.


Quote
Today the numbers are in for Nxt with data from their very own block explorer. These numbers show that 60% of all blocks are produced by just 15 people.

I believe "people" means "accounts", we don't know how many people behind these accounts. There can be only 4 of them, or 400 (yes, one of the accounts can be controlled by a company which has its own hierarchy).


Quote
...I found enough block producers that were above 1% and less than 2% that I can safely conclude that after 720 blocks less than 101 unique block signers have confirmed the block.

I see a reference to the 101 delegates. I'd like to point that 101 is not a big number, someone could successfully control 10 such delegates or 20 delegates could collude. I can safely bet that the 101 delegates distribution follows Pareto's Principle that states that "80 delegates are controlled by 20 entities" (numbers may vary). The point of "101 is not a big number" is that order of magnitude of this number (let's write it as 99 + 2) is roughly the same as deviation caused by external factors. When a measured value has the same order of magnitude as errors of measurement scientists trash such measurements. The comparison of number of forgers and number of delegates in a 720-block window doesn't make sense to me because of this very reason.


Quote
What is even more interesting is the overall speed of the network. The Nxt blockchain aims for 1 minute blocks, but on average gets only one block every two minutes. You can see this on their blocks-per-day chart.

It's a long story why we have 2-minute blocks now, it doesn't influence distribution of forgers among forged blocks though and should be discarded.


Quote
Our delegates are far more reliable with near 100% participation compared to Nxt forgers at about 50% participation.

A number would be much better. One could argue that it's not "far more" but rather "a little bit more".


Quote
For Nxt to have a block confirmed by 101 unique individuals would require 7 hours best case.

This is an incorrect statement. Block generation and block confirmation are different things. All nodes confirm every single block indirectly by agreeing to propagate it over the network. All merchants confirm every single block indirectly by accepting money sent to them recently. All users confirm every single block indirectly by including the reference to a block generated 20 minutes back in their transactions.


Quote
If BitShares were to lose 50% of its delegates all at once due to a government crackdown the remaining 50 delegates would still be producing a more secure, decentralized, and distributed ledger with greater decentralization per minute than every other blockchain on the market.

I see a violation of CAP theorem there (if BitShares are decentralized). How do you know that a blockchain generated by remaining 50 delegates is legit while a blockchain generated by other 50 delegates is not?


Quote
For the sake of this article, I am going to define decentralization as the total number of unique individuals participating in the validation process such that no one individual is responsible for a disproportionate amount of blocks.

You have the right to define decentralization in such the way, but practical usefulness of this definition is quite low. It assumes that all individuals are equal in their power and their intentions to save the current state of things. One person who is able to protect blockchain against a reorg is more valuable than 100 others who are unable to do it.


Quote
If you want to have a million users participate in the consensus process then you will require a million computers all connected to the internet and consuming bandwidth.

No, we will not. Imagine that one of the nodes is a computer controlled by 1000 people (a company). In Nxt users without computers take part in the consensus too, via Economic Clustering (though it's almost not used now).


Quote
Each additional validator provides less and less value to the network despite costing the network the same.

It's true only for a system with a bad architecture. O(N) should be replaced by O(log N). I'm almost sure that Bitcoin, BitShares and Nxt networks are all follow O(log N) because nodes send packets to a fixed number of peers.


Quote
To cover operating expenses a crypto currency network must charge transaction fees.

Why? If usage of a cryptocurrency network generates extra profit itself then fees can be as small as it's enough for fighting spam. Hashcash could be used to remove fees completely.


Quote
These early proof of stake systems claim that they have greater decentralization than BitShares.

These systems can claim nothing. Only some of their users can.


I skipped the rest of the article because there are already so much disagreements that the rest of the math from the article is worthless.


PS: It would be great to see comments on comments...



Read through the rest of that thread and you will find these blogs are written by a developer who hasn't implemented solutions to issues that have already been understood and solved (Byantine Generals problem). Right now, Come-from-Beyond's modelling sshows the bloggers crypto is vulnerable to attack from just 22 nodes (he voluntarily admits he doesn't know the theory behind cryptos, another referred to theory as 'ivory tower' development). Bitcoin only needs a handful of pool operators to collude.


While all crypto is bootstrapping, I think it would be wise not to throw stones when we all live in glass houses.
904  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin has reached the tipping point on: January 18, 2015, 03:33:32 PM
I disagree with a lot being said here. Bitcoins are still more useful than other crypto currencies due to its usability and higher price actually. Someone mentioned why use Bitcoin if we can get other cryptos for cheaper and still have the same usability. Well, first off, most other cryptos do not have the same usability on a practical level (forget the anonymity and other shenanigans for a moment). Major corporations are accepting them and the higher price makes it more practical. Unless you call practical using 1,000,000 crypto coins to pay for a can of soda. Also, there you go again, mentioning cheaper. Why does that matter? Everyone just wants to profit, but forget that. Look at it like a currency if you want Bitcoins, or any crypto to move far.

Bitcoins are at a very low point right now, price wise, not necessarily momentum wise if you look at the big picture.

Just because 1 Bitcoin is not worth what it used to be worth is not a bad thing. If it stabilized at $200, that would be fine by me and this consistent price further ensures usability and practicality to the masses whether its for purchasing items, or using it as an investment to store money.

I do not think that all other cryptos are silly, some have good value, and by some, I mean 2-4 of them.

Just my two cents.

Bitcoin is not useful to common folks and that's what counts. Crypto currencies need to find unique use cases to generate demand to be successful. Major corporations accepting them? There are not so many yet and all that serves is to milk the Bitcoin ecosystem for fiat, the price drops as a result. The right approach would be to make it a closed loop where Bitcoins that merchants accept for goods and services are used by them to pay back their suppliers, but no, this is not happening. Bitcoins are swapped for fiat immediately, this fiat leakage needs to be fixed before this ecosystem has a chance to be as dominating the world as some dream it should be.

Bitcoin still has to test below $300 again as mentioned a few posts above, and if that holds, that could be the low in this bear market. It can't go above $500 before it re-tests and doesn't break the below $300 (~$275) target it reached in October.

What is your plan if this bear market is to continue another 12 months?

Seems devphp was right. Bitcoin's tipping point was reach, $275 was tested and destroyed.

I never knew his reasoning for his prediction of a bear market until Oct 15 (I vaguely think it was due to anticipated fiat crisis, problems for a nation rolling over debt perhaps?). Shame devphp isn't around any more really.
905  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Good AltCoin with Android-based Wallet? on: January 18, 2015, 09:47:36 AM
You can use mynxt.info on any platform through a browser.
906  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I'm dumping Nxt and here's why you should too on: January 18, 2015, 12:24:24 AM
...I'm certainly not a PoW ideologue.

I don't believe you  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Would you like some suggestions of other old threads to dig up for tomorrow?  Grin

That is why I have been advocating for a TaPoS security layer added to bitcoin over many threads and creating new
threads questioning 100% PoW in Bitcoin like this:   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=873646.0  Huh

I don't know. Doing what you can to keep POW going?  Wink


There has been some push back because of the increasing amount of trolls attacking this forum with new accounts. There are somethings I like about NxT but I do tend to get annoyed that many alt users have been trolling our sections and attacking Bitcoin. I haven't gone so far as to repaying in kind on their boards but have started to push back here.


I notice you say alt users and not Nxt users...So you have tomorrow's dead thread already lined up for resurrection then?  Cheesy
907  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I'm dumping Nxt and here's why you should too on: January 18, 2015, 12:12:19 AM
Doesn't it seem a bit suspicious that the mass influx of people praising NXT has finally faded away? I don't know what to make of it but I think that it's quite obvious how we went from lots of people praising NXT to this. Did the developers stop paying the shills or something?  Roll Eyes

They faded away in March 2014... when nxtforum.org was launched. And we all went over there after creating the biggest altcoin thread bitcointalk had ever seen.


Whether you like it or not, Nxt is being adopted. And used.


The blockchain data shows ever increasing adoption, I don't think anybody expected Bitcoin levels of transactions after just 1 year. But they are increasing.

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_charts

I am using May 2014 as that was the launch of the first major feature users could use, Asset Exchange.

Transactions per day has gone up more than ten fold.

May 14: 200 - 500 transactions per day
Jan 15: 5500 - 7000 transactions per day

The growing steepness of the curve in Cumulative transactions per day shows how transactions are increasing at a faster and faster rate.


With the  transactions per day increasing, the Average transactions per block per day is also rising, which is good for forgers.

May 14: 0.3 - 0.6 transactions per block per day
Jan 15: 8 - 11 transactions per block per day


No crypto shows signs of wide adoption (even Bitcoin). Nxt does show positive, concrete signs of growing adoption and at an ever increasing rate. Something must be going right  Grin


I have noticed a couple of guys pushing this "Nxt is dying" vibe over the last day or so.  Undecided. The facts are that people like Nxt and people use it. The blockchain data and the standard 100+ people online at nxtforum.org supports this. Open your eyes  Grin
908  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I'm dumping Nxt and here's why you should too on: January 17, 2015, 11:58:47 PM
...I'm certainly not a PoW ideologue.

I don't believe you  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Would you like some suggestions of other old threads to dig up for tomorrow?  Grin
909  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Nothing-at-Stake & Long Range Attack on Proof-of-Stake (Consensus Research) on: January 17, 2015, 11:44:32 PM

That is the article I linked to which indicates you can perform short range N@S attacks with 10% stake. When kushti published it he even admitted such:


- we have formally defined nothing-at-stake attack(again, using Buterin's informal definition) and made initial simulations. We haven't included their results in paper as they are seems to be too raw, but I can reveal them here: N@S attack could happens only in short-range, e.g. for within 20 blocks for 10% stake, so with 30 confirmations we haven't observed the successful attack. Also please note the attack has pretty unpredictable nature for attacker, so he can hardly enforce it, even in theory(in practice it's even harder to get it done properly). The correlation with stake size is still the open question, but it's nearly impossible to attack a proof-of-stake currency with "1% stake even" as stated by Buterin


I believe what is happening now is Nxt Supporters are now suggesting N@S is impossible because they are interpreting "Nothing" literally and indicating only short range attacks are possible. If you want to play word games that is fine, lets call it a bear raid and short range attack combo.


That article isn't the latest information, this post from 14th Jan is..

To summarize the discussion, known claimed attacks on proof-of-stake distributed consensus algorithm(and concrete implementations) at the moment:

*snipped*

3. Nothing-at-stake attack - not possible at the moment! Will be possible when a lot of forgers will use multiple-branch forging  to increase profits. Then attacker can contribute to all the chains(some of them e.g. containing a transaction) then start to contribute to one chain only behind the best(containing no transaction) making it winner.  Previous statements on N@S attack made with assumption it costs nothing to contribute to an each fork possible and that makes N@S attack a disaster. In fact, it's not possible at all to contribute to each fork possible, as number of forks growing exponentially with time. So the only strategy for a multibranch forger is to contribute to N best forks. In such scenario attack is possible only within short-range e.g. with 25 confirmations needed 10% attacker can't make an attack. And attack is pretty random in nature, it's impossible to predict whether 2 forks will be within N best forks(from exponentially growing set) for k confirmations. So from our point of view the importance of the attack is pretty overblown.

*snipped*

When he published the multistrategy paper in Dec, the post indicated that he thought the N@S was overblown and explicitly stated that he hadn't included these results in that paper.

Kushti's research shows that the Nothing @ Stake attacked described by Vitalik (as he was the only one to describe it in any detail) is BS. If you have a different attack, you'll need a different name  Cheesy

910  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Nothing-at-Stake & Long Range Attack on Proof-of-Stake (Consensus Research) on: January 17, 2015, 05:46:22 PM
I like how the Nothing@Stake attack keeps mutating as time passes  Cheesy
911  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What cryptocurrency do you have the most faith in the long term? on: January 17, 2015, 12:51:38 PM
cmon guys!! you're posting in BITCOINtalk....
*snip*

And bitcointalk will allow discussion of all cryptocurrencies in all sections, or it will be replaced by something else...

I think you are right. The mods will say "we need to keep things organised, otherwise those interested in BTC will be over run with altcoin threads." Which is true.

But then why not create a "Crypto - General" sub forum at the top of the page? Then anyone from anywhere can discuss anything. Things stay as organised as they are today and there is the benefit of some mixing between altcoiners and the "All sh!tcoins are sh!t, we can do that with sidechains" cru. (N.B. when I read this I see "I'm unhappy, hopefully we can do what they are doing today in 1-3 years when sidechains are implemented, assuming we are still relevant then"


The reason they don't add a mixed forum so all ideas can slosh around together is because the current separation is protectionism. It intended to keep a majority of bitcoiners and their investors ignorant. There is a lot of good stuff going on in altcoins, it is a hydra and they are afraid they won't be able to keep up.


Here is the best example I have seen for what I am talking about, the ignorance and arrogance competing at higher and higher levels: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=827725.0

You might think this is 18-24 months old but it is from October 2014 It is also one of my most favourite threads  Grin
912  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: More BitShares greed. on: January 17, 2015, 01:05:46 AM
I would rather fly in an aircraft designed by engineer than a theoretician, but that's just me.  Smiley

Why do you think you have to chose one or the other? Sorry, I changed my mind  Cheesy I'm not that interested in the answer.
913  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: More BitShares greed. on: January 17, 2015, 12:12:01 AM



Unless you want run the risk of some seriously p!ssed people later on, it may be wise to inform your investors that this is the approach you take in crypto.

Then they can't say that you didn't warn them.


914  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: More BitShares greed. on: January 16, 2015, 08:44:59 PM
A flase flag isn't needed. You fellas are doing a fine job on your own  Cheesy


An aeronautical engineer of a new airplane design was asked "How do you know it will stay up if one of its three engines starts to malfunction?"

"I don't." came the reply. "When it comes to flight, I prefer to innovate empirically. But if you could work it out, I would be very interested to know. You could be famous.."


I can't imagine Come-from-Beyond will be back until someone has worked it out and it is documented, backed with analysis and not analogies or hand waving. It would be a waste of his time.


I will leave you guys to it.
915  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: January 16, 2015, 03:49:12 PM
Quote
“What is the value of $10?”, the teacher asked his class. “$10, of course”, a student responded quickly...

What is the value of 10 NXTs?
http://nxter.org/the-value-of-10-nxts/


That would be a good subject for its own thread  Grin
916  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: January 16, 2015, 03:38:14 PM
Remember there is the [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree thread too...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=831202.0

...which attempts to keep tabs on what is coming out when in the OP, with some technical Q&A in the body.
917  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: January 16, 2015, 02:52:56 PM
We can still have some fun  Cheesy

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=925961.0
918  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: January 16, 2015, 02:18:24 PM
Lot of people are mining Egold on the monetary system

How many have been mined? I think the difficulty goes up after ~450,000 coins have been mined.


In future you will be able to shuffle Nxt via Monetary System to gain anonymity:

Code:
 Sell Nxt for Coin1 > Shuffle Coin1 > Sell Coin1 for Nxt


You could add as many extra cycles through other MSCoins as you want for extra anonymity:

Code:
 Sell Nxt for Coin1 > Shuffle Coin1 > Sell Coin1 for Coin2 > Shuffle Coins2>  Sell Coin2 for Nxt 


All on a decentralized exchange. Not bad  Grin


I think Coin Shuffling will be v1.7 or 1.8. But don't quote me. Voting and Phasing are planned to be first.
919  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] Nxt - Official Thread on: January 15, 2015, 09:57:37 PM
2 phased transactions... > Phasing.

https://nxtforum.org/general/2-phased-transactions-post-implementation-specification/?PHPSESSID=1k01689br8d63j4hu2ats0ggs0

In a line: "Two-Phased Transactions is multisig transactions implementation in Nxt but much more powerful."
920  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks on: January 15, 2015, 09:34:20 PM
If you have got an attack that isn't listed here (or you think they are wrong)...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.msg10152632#msg10152632

...then comment at the bottom of the thread.
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