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1761  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 07, 2014, 03:34:41 PM
What he is giving is the mean of the variance.  Not % of error.  So what he is saying is the variance of his prediction is +/- 1.5% from the mean.

For standard deviation you have to take square root or you might get negative number

No he isn't. The error is purely historic. It has nothing to do with the current prediction.

OK, that's what it sounds like he's saying.  In any case I agree w you that it's misleading
1762  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 07, 2014, 03:32:42 PM
What he is giving is the mean of the variance.  Not % of error.  So what he is saying is the variance of his prediction is +/- 1.5% from the mean.

For standard deviation you have to take square root or you might get negative number
1763  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 07, 2014, 03:25:12 PM
Yes very misleading.  1.5% error sounds like out of 100 predictions only 1.5 are wrong and 98.5% are correct
1764  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 03:36:02 AM
He does seem pretty smart.   But his politics is way different than mine.

1765  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 03:26:18 AM
LOL.   "Fiat world". As if there is any choice.   Grow up child

There's always a choice. The only thing tying us to the fiat world, is our voluntary contribution to it.
Being free is as simple as saying no to those who oppress our ideals, and having the balls to keep walking an unpaved road. Especially now, thanks to the great minds who gave us Bitcoin as an arme-de-resistance.

You realize BTC isn't legal tender?    As a debtor,  you can't force the creditor to accept BTC as debt payment.   That means IRS,  your landlord, the bank that holds your mortgage,  stores where you buy food,  clothes,  etc..

As the creditor, you have to accept legal tender (USD)  for all debts.   If my tennants pay me rent in USD,  I can't refuse and force them to pay me in BTC, bananas,  gold nuggets, blowjobs or anything not legal tender.

This is the real world.   Grow up and accept it.  It not voluntary.   Its a legal obligation.

There is no choice but to use fiat.  You can barter between private parties but thats about it

i have one question, if you dont hold any value in bitcoin and you have no desire in having an alternative to FIAT.. then ... why are you even on this forum??

Im here to educate people about economics.   My very old and retired father got a tip to invest in BTC.  He was told that it was "digital gold".  "Price never can go down cause deflationary design".  "Currency of the future".   This was when BTC was like $1000.  Glad i told him to stay away.   It got me thinking that there are a lot of bitcoin pumpers out there preying on greed of uninformed investors

I don't want to people get suckered in this pump and dump and lose their money.

My stance is that cryptos have a future as a transfer mechanism but not store of value.   Im mostly  intersted in crypto for academics.   Ripple shows most promise to me

I see that banking is broken but I believe solution is more regulation not less.   Not anarchy nor lassiez faire capitalism,  not wild west currencies.  Fiat is not the problem.   BTC is a fiat by definition!   The problem is derivatives
1766  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 03:00:31 AM

Some landlords do accept BTC as payment, as well as lawyers, stores selling food and clothes, and there's a service that allows you to pay bills in bitcoins. Keep in mind that Bitcoin is still very young and people are just beginning to see its potential and to trust it. Adoption is still growing exponentially.

And even if we can never pay taxes in BTC, it does not matter. Bitcoin IS the superior currency. As more and more people realize this, its value will grow, the US dollar will get weaker, so these few things that can't legally be paid with Bitcoins will be trivial expense for those who held the coins for long enough - and its value will continue to grow as long as fiat currencies exist.

All is always voluntary, that's the main characteristic of humanity. And trade between private parties is way more significant than trades with the government.

I already said you can private barter.  

There is no voluntary trade w govt.   It is a legal requirement to pay taxes on income.   Failure to do so can result in fines and/or jail.

Do you guys pay taxes ?  How is it you cannot comprehend this.   Taxes create demand for USD

USD might weaken but not because of BTC.   Even if BTC become the unofficial currency of USA,  at the end of year everyone will need to buy USD to pay taxes.  Whereas nobody needs to buy BTC for anything other than speculation
1767  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Soon to be college grad in need of advice- what's the deal with Bitcoin? on: April 07, 2014, 02:35:00 AM
Bitcoin (which is not a Ponzi) has some amazing similarities to a Ponzi scheme and anyone who says otherwise is obviously wrong.


Like what

People talking about new money needing to come in, is a major similarity between BTC and a real Ponzi scheme.
Having "mega-rich early whales", and others wondering if they got in too late ("I'm left holding the bag") is another.

I have an older post giving at least 4 similarities, those are the 2 which come to mind right now.

Sorry but I'm not buying that argument.  Given your reasoning, I could say the same thing about early adopters of, say Microsoft stock, apple stock, or any speculative investment.  Prices always rise and fall due to supply and demand.  Price is based on the dynamics of the marketplace.  You can call bitcoin a bubble if you want ( although I wouldn't say that's true either), but that's more accurate way to describe the dynamics.  A Ponzi scheme involves a central person literally paying out early adopters from later adopters' funds, and this is NOT the same thing as people trading an financial instrument in the marketplace.



I agree that BTC is not a ponzi.  Its a pyramid or pump and dump

But its nothing like stock.   Stock is equity. 
1768  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 02:28:41 AM

LOL.   "Fiat world". As if there is any choice.   Grow up child

well i get paid in bitcoin, i buy things in bitcoin.. food, car fuel, drink.. pay rent etc etc.. my world is not fiat dominant.

now have a nice day, kid

I doubt you pay taxes in bitcoin
1769  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 02:26:55 AM
LOL.   "Fiat world". As if there is any choice.   Grow up child

There's always a choice. The only thing tying us to the fiat world, is our voluntary contribution to it.
Being free is as simple as saying no to those who oppress our ideals, and having the balls to keep walking an unpaved road. Especially now, thanks to the great minds who gave us Bitcoin as an arme-de-resistance.

You realize BTC isn't legal tender?    As a debtor,  you can't force the creditor to accept BTC as debt payment.   That means IRS,  your landlord, the bank that holds your mortgage,  stores where you buy food,  clothes,  etc..

As the creditor, you have to accept legal tender (USD)  for all debts.   If my tennants pay me rent in USD,  I can't refuse and force them to pay me in BTC, bananas,  gold nuggets, blowjobs or anything not legal tender.

This is the real world.   Grow up and accept it.  It not voluntary.   Its a legal obligation.

There is no choice but to use fiat.  You can barter between private parties but thats about it
1770  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 02:04:57 AM

What you are are trying to say is.   If there is demand there is a market price.

If a $10 gold coin has only $1 worth of gold then the exchange value of that coin is $10 but its intrinsic value is $1.  But that instrinsic value is based on the gold market.   Like electronics makers demanding gold to make electronics.

A better example is stamps. 

A $1 stamp issued by USPS is worth $1 as the exchange value.  But if they don't accept it anymore its worth nothing. I has no intrinsic value.

However,  some stamp collector may pay $1000 for the same stamp if its rare and collectible. Its speculative value is $1000

You're mistaken if you think bitcoin has any properties that make it a store of value.  Its $450 because someone is willing to pay that much.   It could be $10000 or zero.   Same as an ETF share.   Neither is more "real" than the other.   They are both speculative instruments


im just facepalming your failures to understand bitcoin and now your misunderstandings of value..

i am not even going to try teaching you the truth.. so now please just hand over your worthless bitcoins to 'seans outpost' and get on with your life back in the FIAT world. you obviously dont want to be part of bitcoin

LOL.   "Fiat world". As if there is any choice.   Grow up child
1771  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 12:58:17 AM
So why does a newly minted coin silver dollar cost 50 of them to own? Why shouldn't we just pay a buck for it?

Its only worth a buck if you spend it as legal tender.   The seller can sell it at whatever price.   I wouldn't buy it but some collector might
1772  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 07, 2014, 12:50:04 AM
The irony here is that BTC is not "real" value either.   Its a credit someone received for solving a math problem.

as long as there is a need, there is a value


What you are are trying to say is.   If there is demand there is a market price.

If a $10 gold coin has only $1 worth of gold then the exchange value of that coin is $10 but its intrinsic value is $1.  But that instrinsic value is based on the gold market.   Like electronics makers demanding gold to make electronics.

A better example is stamps. 

A $1 stamp issued by USPS is worth $1 as the exchange value.  But if they don't accept it anymore its worth nothing. I has no intrinsic value.

However,  some stamp collector may pay $1000 for the same stamp if its rare and collectible. Its speculative value is $1000

You're mistaken if you think bitcoin has any properties that make it a store of value.  Its $450 because someone is willing to pay that much.   It could be $10000 or zero.   Same as an ETF share.   Neither is more "real" than the other.   They are both speculative instruments

1773  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 06, 2014, 11:57:23 PM
The irony here is that BTC is not "real" value either.   Its a credit someone received for solving a math problem.

You are mistaken, and clearly don't understand how bitcoin works.

So how do bitcoins come into existence?   
1774  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Honey Boo Boo Asks,"WTF Is Bitcoin? Aint It Like Bacon?" on: April 06, 2014, 11:50:33 PM

what you are talking about is not true value.. but fake value.. basicaly making a bet.. its not a store of value.. thus my walkthrogh was talking about actual stores of value. meaning actual gold ownership. not a bet/gamble on a price.

take for example the winklevoss project.
the want people to invest into winklevoss.. not to buy bitcoins directly but to invest into winklevoss, where investers are hoping that winklevoss value will rise because the twins hold X amount (owned by only the twins) and the profits come from the business valuation after a price rise.. not based on investors having bitcoin and the investors own possessions have risen in price.

anyone investing into winklevoss, does not own a single bitcoin. they own a balance amount on a database on a winklevoss server..

do not be tricked into these fake schemes that are not real stores of wealth. they are purely to make more FIAT profits based on gambling. not hoarding rare materials directly.
The irony here is that BTC is not "real" value either.   Its a credit someone received for solving a math problem.

1775  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 11:41:06 PM
No what we think are patterns is actually randomness.   Thats why you trade probality not patterns.   Why are stochastic processes counter to what I say? All I claim is markets can't be predicted.  

Anyone who claims they can predict the future is either lucky or delusional

Have you been reading what I wrote at all? Do you still not understand that there is no randomness? This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. NOTHING IS RANDOM. EVER. Not even the random number generators in computers - it's based off of complicated strings and your cpu clock.

Do you realize that if you can predict whether the price of something is going to move up or down correctly more than 50% of the time, you are successfully predicting future prices? Nobody said they can predict prices perfectly 100% of the time.

I don't understand how you don't understand this -_- It just plain is NOT random. All I'm claiming is that I can predict the price within a reasonable margin of error MOST of the time. And it's not like you can argue against this, because it's objectively true. My software does it on the ENTIRE HISTORY OF BITCOIN DATA every hour and predicts within an average of 1.3% error. You're arguing against something that is just clearly objectively true.

Edit: Read the name of the post!!! I said it's a prediction, that that it WILL be $500! ugh please try to understand...

Maybe you are lucky.   Nothing is random ever?   If I flip a coin tell me if heads or tails.   Put that in your neural network. And predict heads vs tails

Dude,  it wasnt 500.  Not even close.   Your prediction was wrong.   That is the empirical truth



  
1776  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 11:10:38 PM
Markets are random.  

Read "Fooled By Randomness" Nassim Taleb.   Most of professional traders know this

Naïve poster, school thyself.  Random does not mean a coin toss.
In e.g. Taleb's usage it means that the most effective models we know are stochastic process models.  They make predictions. That is why we call them effective.

No what we think are patterns is actually randomness.   Why are stochastic processes counter to what I say? All I claim is markets can't be predicted.  

Theres a difference in saying BTC might be $500 in 24hrs than BTC will be in 24hrs.



1777  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 07:45:03 PM
Markets are random. 

Read "Fooled By Randomness" Nassim Taleb.   Most of professional traders know this

I know how neural networks.   I wanna how YOU come up w these price predictions.

If you think you're so accurate why bitcoins?   Why not study S&P and trade the options on them?

Then move on to SPX  futures?   I know of one lady who turned like $300K into $40M in 3 years. She's a retail trader
1778  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 07:13:55 PM
Describe what you are doing and ill tell you if human is better or not.   HFT does not predict.   HFT front run orders and capture the spread.   It can do this better humans cause it can do it faster.   

But humans program it to do this.

I dont know if a machine can find patterns better than humans.    Give me a real world example

Let's do a test.   We guess the open close price each day of S&P for next 10 days.  If you're right you get a point.   Whoever scores the most point wins.   Just an experiment to see if your algo can guess the price better than me.   

At market close you have to guess the open price.   At open you guess the closing price.  Your allowed to be off by +/- 50c

I'm sorry but I'm not going to bother trying to get my software to predict S&P right now because I have a ton of other work to do. If you want to test accuracy, you should just make your own bitcoin price predictions and test their accuracy compared to my charts on this website.

If you want to know how it works look up artificial neural networks on Google. This isn't some simple process that I can explain to you in one post. It's a very complex computational model that people have been developing and researching since the 1940s. You could teach multiple college courses just on neural networks alone. To be honest, it seems like you are refuting 70 years worth of research based on your gut feeling that humans would be better at this - and if we're going to be realistic, computers are better than humans at nearly all tasks involving any type of computation. They're surpassing us quickly in other realms as well. They have been able to beat us in chess for a long time now, they can beat us in almost any other game, and they can even drive cars better than us now. Is it so hard to believe that they can predict stock prices better than us?

Thats not what I said at all.  I said markets are random so its impossible to predict them. They are by nature unpredictable.   If you think you can predict future prices youd be a billionaire by now. Just put all capital into options and you can double it every day

I was just curious if your software was a good trader.   Thats why I offered the challenge.   Maybe the chaellenge should be human and computer starting w same amount of money and see who makes more after a certain period.

Its a cop out if you can't explain what you are doing to predict these prices.  Telling me to google neural networks doesn't make you know future prices more than me.   I admit don't know future prices.   
1779  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 03:26:58 PM

Human behavior predictable at the extreme.   I agree on that.   Large spikes always follow by selloff.  But without extremes its random.

I trade every day and I watch tick for tick on some stocks I trade.   Yes there are patterns but the pattern presents itself after each candle is drawn.   Theres always a lag that makes it useless as a predictor.

I love trading breakout patterns.   Breakouts occur after consolidation.   But I don't know direction of  breakout or to what price.

Its not that I don't believe you.   I've never met anyone who claim they can predict next days price.

I hope you become filthy rich and teach me your system

You should search Google for studies using neural networks for stock price prediction. You will find plenty of examples of it being done successful.

I will reiterate my main point that I expressed before though: Neural networks can find patterns that humans can't. Just because we can't see patterns or understand them doesn't mean that they aren't there. Neural networks can find complex and extensive patterns that no human could possibly ever understand. I use 60 inputs to predict the 24 prices for the 24 hour prediction. The hidden layer has 200 inputs. This basically is like representing a function with 12,000 variables. Obviously this is extremely complicated, and obviously there is no way a human could understand a function like this.

No matter how often you trade and how much time you spend trying to understand patterns in price fluctuations, you will never come even remotely close to being able to understand these patterns as thoroughly as a properly implemented neural network. It's like trying to beat a calculator at math - you can't do it.

Describe what you are doing and ill tell you if human is better or not.   HFT does not predict.   HFT front run orders and capture the spread.   It can do this better humans cause it can do it faster.   

But humans program it to do this.

I dont know if a machine can find patterns better than humans.    Give me a real world example

Let's do a test.   We guess the open close price each day of S&P for next 10 days.  If you're right you get a point.   Whoever scores the most point wins.   Just an experiment to see if your algo can guess the price better than me.   

At market close you have to guess the open price.   At open you guess the closing price.  Your allowed to be off by +/- 50c
1780  Economy / Speculation / Re: Prediction: Breaking $500 within 24 hours on: April 05, 2014, 05:40:09 AM
I'm saying its impossible to mathematically model markets because they are based on human interactions which are totally unpredictable.

The one thing I find "predictable" is that implied volatility reverts to mean.  Not really a prediction.  Just that statistically speaking, volatility is mean reverting (not prices)

How are you predicting price?  What is your model based on?

The thing that you have to understand is that just because we, as humans, can't see predictable patterns in a set of data doesn't mean that they aren't there. Neural networks are REALLY good at finding patterns that humans cannot see. The first time I ever implemented a neural network was to recognize hand-written digits. It was able to correctly classify some hand written digits that were written so poorly that I, a human, could not tell for sure if they were one digit or another.

Human behavior is not totally unpredictable. Especially given large numbers of humans. This is besides the point though. The actual cause of price fluctuations is completely irrelevant actually. My computational model has no idea what is causing prices to change because it doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that there are repetitive patterns in the data (which there are). The neural network learns these patterns, and is able to use them to accurately predict bitcoin prices.

You can say you don't believe that bitcoin prices can be mathematically modeled, but it is still true - it's exactly what I'm doing (relatively successfully) here.

Human behavior predictable at the extreme.   I agree on that.   Large spikes always follow by selloff.  But without extremes its random.

I trade every day and I watch tick for tick on some stocks I trade.   Yes there are patterns but the pattern presents itself after each candle is drawn.   Theres always a lag that makes it useless as a predictor.

I love trading breakout patterns.   Breakouts occur after consolidation.   But I don't know direction of  breakout or to what price.

Its not that I don't believe you.   I've never met anyone who claim they can predict next days price.

I hope you become filthy rich and teach me your system
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