[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency

[Vorksholk]

Not sure where at all to find info about this:
1.) What is the current hashrate around?
2.) Is there a block-explorer of some sort?
3.) What is the recommended amount of hashing power to solo?

Thanks

[1714296099]

1714296099

[1714296099]

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[1714296099]

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[1714296099]

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[NothinG]

Not sure where at all to find info about this:
1.) What is the current hashrate around?
2.) Is there a block-explorer of some sort?
3.) What is the recommended amount of hashing power to solo?

Thanks

1) I'd estimate (taking generation, shares and number of miners at my pool) it being around 30-50Gh/s. This is a very generalized guess, so please take it lightly.
2) Not at the moment. Wouldn't be hard to get one setup, any PCCoin client can do it.
3) I'd say about 2-3Gh/s will give you a decent amount of coins over X amount of time.

[FlipPro]

Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

[tacotime]

Actually I think I did a not too shabby job with the difficulty as you can see we went from 256 to 3000 in less than 3 days and block generation adjusted beautifully.

Otherwise you'd been seeing lots of blocks coming in seconds apart.

No, you did a shabby job. You'll understand why later.

May your coin serve as a warning to the community.

That is, if PPCoin hasn't already failed for some other reason at 3 non-coinbase transactions, as the error message may indicate.

this sounds bad

the testnet is your friend guys

[Sunny King]

NothinG PM'ed me asking about cap. So I will also make a public reply here.

There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max I have put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that. Due the nature of the mint rate design it's not possible to predict a final limit as it depends heavily on market participation, as well as the influences between proof-of-stake minting and fee destruction (there may not even be a mathematical limit if proof-of-stake minting continues to outpace fee destruction). One thing I do know is that the proof-of-work generation would slow down exponentially according to Moore's Law. So generally speaking it is still a very low future-inflation design comparable to Bitcoin.

In 0.2 release I am including a 'moneysupply' stat in the getinfo output so everyone can see how many coins are in the market.

[Etlase2]

Why must the code be read to understand the coin distribution system and possibly whatever "proof-of-excellence" is?

There is nothing in the paper nor the wiki detailing these things. At least nowhere near satisfactorily. 16x cuts the reward in half, so does 8x cut it by 25%? Is this increase permanent, even if difficulty lowers? Does the starting difficulty make sense in this scenario?

You talk about "consumed coin age" in the paper, but why is proof-of-stake even necessary with this mechanic? I've talked about it in several other threads, and really all you're accomplishing is giving an incentive for people with wealth to make transactions and consume their coin age to create a proof-of-stake block. But with consumed coin age as you call it, it already does this. What additional protection does the stake really offer? It seems possible that at certain points no one will be able to create proof-of-stake blocks (or choose not to) if no one can consume enough coin age, so proof-of-work will have to take over or everyone will have to wait a potentially long time before a new block. If PoW is your backup anyway, you may as well just stick with consumed coin age and leave it at that.

[Sunny King]

Why must the code be read to understand the coin distribution system and possibly whatever "proof-of-excellence" is?

There is nothing in the paper nor the wiki detailing these things. At least nowhere near satisfactorily. 16x cuts the reward in half, so does 8x cut it by 25%? Is this increase permanent, even if difficulty lowers? Does the starting difficulty make sense in this scenario?

You talk about "consumed coin age" in the paper, but why is proof-of-stake even necessary with this mechanic? I've talked about it in several other threads, and really all you're accomplishing is giving an incentive for people with wealth to make transactions and consume their coin age to create a proof-of-stake block. But with consumed coin age as you call it, it already does this. What additional protection does the stake really offer? It seems possible that at certain points no one will be able to create proof-of-stake blocks (or choose not to) if no one can consume enough coin age, so proof-of-work will have to take over or everyone will have to wait a potentially long time before a new block. If PoW is your backup anyway, you may as well just stick with consumed coin age and leave it at that.

- proof-of-excellence is a system concept we discovered as an alternative to proof-of-stake. but it is not implemented in ppcoin
- proof-of-work mint formula is: difficulty == (9999 / (mint per block)) ** 4
- purpose of proof-of-stake is to replace proof-of-work functions. first it's generation is made hard like proof-of-work, with the hashing scheme, taking the block generation function of proof-of-work. this is core part of the protocol, and it's called kernel for good reasons. target is adjusted similar to proof-of-work so this alleviates your concern about depletion of coin age as proof-of-stake difficulty would be lowered in that situation. then in our v0.2 reorganization is switching to a scoring based on proof-of-stake difficulty which closely resembles Satoshi's formula and providing strong protection to the network. in summary proof-of-stake has completely replaced all functions of proof-of-work except for minting.

[Etlase2]

- proof-of-excellence is a system concept we discovered as an alternative to proof-of-stake. but it is not implemented in ppcoin

Then why mention it in the whitepaper? It only serves to confuse.

- proof-of-work mint formula is: difficulty == (9999 / (mint per block)) ** 4

I thought difficulty determines mint per block? Or what does mint per block mean?

- purpose of proof-of-stake is to replace proof-of-work functions. first it's generation is made hard like proof-of-work, with the hashing scheme, taking the block generation function of proof-of-work. this is core part of the protocol, and it's called kernel for good reasons. target is adjusted similar to proof-of-work so this alleviates your concern about depletion of coin age as proof-of-stake difficulty would be lowered in that situation. then in our v0.2 reorganization is switching to a scoring based on proof-of-stake difficulty which closely resembles Satoshi's formula and providing strong protection to the network. in summary proof-of-stake has completely replaced all functions of proof-of-work except for minting.

I'm sure I don't completely understand it, but again, why is this better than just using coin age consumed? What advantages does it offer? Perhaps there would be less energy consumption than just using coin age consumed, but I don't think that that is a given. And people who wish to participate in stake holding must not spend or transfer their coins. Hard to say how it would work out.

[Sunny King]

Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

Thanks for the compliment. Although we don't plan maintaining our own forum in the foreseeable future. I will point the forum link to bitcointalk alt subforum at least for the first 3 months of ppcoin network, most likely a lot longer.

In the future if we survive and demand is really high I would certainly appreciate users like you maintaining an independent forum but right now I think it's kinda wasting resources. You can certainly help in other ways such as reading more about our design, help answering questions to new users and reporting problems/attacks.

Best Regards,

[FlipPro]

Let me say this publicly.

PPC is an AWESOME idea...

It's what many here have been advocating, for a very long time.

(name could be much better though),

forum on PPC site should also be put up asap... Let me know if you guys need any help hosting a good forum..

Thanks for the compliment. Although we don't plan maintaining our own forum in the foreseeable future. I will point the forum link to bitcointalk alt subforum at least for the first 3 months of ppcoin network, most likely a lot longer.

In the future if we survive and demand is really high I would certainly appreciate users like you maintaining an independent forum but right now I think it's kinda wasting resources. You can certainly help in other ways such as reading more about our design, help answering questions to new users and reporting problems/attacks.

Best Regards,

Have you considered changing the name of this coin? I think it should go up for a vote, because PPC is honestly a terrible name.

I think the site looks awful. Why use a map of San Andres (video game) with the terrible navigation bar?

Shall we setup a bounty for a web designer to build us a respectable site?

Also why have a cap at all? Do you think it has any play in the psychological mindset of people? I think it would be better if we removed the cap all together and let the "coin" (we should get rid of the word coin all together) determine it's appropriate inflationary/deflationary rate at that given point in time, less scamish IMHO. The Bitcoins cap has been it's biggest anchor and it's number one facilitator at the same time.

I for one am tired of the radical swings, and some of the shady people who cling on to these type of economic "ideals", and would love to support a respectable, stable, and decentralized currency. PPC has the potential to be that, but not without going through a couple of hoops first.

[Sunny King]

Have you considered changing the name of this coin? I think it should go up for a vote, because PPC is honestly a terrible name.

I think the site looks awful. Why use a map of San Andres (video game) with the terrible navigation bar?

Shall we setup a bounty for a web designer to build us a respectable site?

Also why have a cap at all? Do you think it has any play in the psychological mindset of people? I think it would be better if we removed the cap all together and let the "coin" (we should get rid of the word coin all together) determine it's appropriate inflationary/deflationary rate at that given point in time, less scamish IMHO. The Bitcoins cap has been it's biggest anchor and it's number one facilitator at the same time.

I for one am tired of the radical swings, and some of the shady people who cling on to these type of economic "ideals", and would love to support a respectable, stable, and decentralized currency. PPC has the potential to be that, but not without going through a couple of hoops first.

- Name is fixed and can no longer be changed. Let's leave it at that. It was meant to mean peer-to-peer, see the coin symbol, two P's connected.
- I made the website myself as I don't have a lot of time for that so maybe some folks don't like it. No I am not a graphic artist lol but I thought it was fairly cute.
- I am not sure what you are getting at about Bitcoin's cap though. If you think that Bitcoin's economic model counts as 'radical' then I cannot help you as PPCoin's inflation model is designed with the same principles behind Bitcoin, as we mentioned in the design paper. Inflation/deflation models are considered sacrosanct and will not be touched.

Best Regards,

[NothinG]

Does anyone know how to determine the transaction size (for the cost of the transaction) before the transaction is sent?
or...does anyone know if the fee for the transaction is included in the transaction itself?

[Sunny King]

Does anyone know how to determine the transaction size (for the cost of the transaction) before the transaction is sent?
or...does anyone know if the fee for the transaction is included in the transaction itself?

Fees are calculated automatically by ppcoind. It's not included in the send amount so if you have no leftover balance to cover the fee then transaction cannot be sent.

Generally speaking sendtoaddress would incur 1 cent fee and sendmany would incur maybe more depending on how many different addresses you are sending to. After transaction is sent you can use listtransactions to see the exact fee paid for the transaction.

[FuzzyBear]

Just wanted to say I am working on a Chat forum specifically for PPCoin and hopefully should have up in a day or two

also RE the transaction fees NothingG, your going to have to have a play with a various send amounts and many address send amounts so... I would rather have a nice lot of data to analyse ro charts and graphs to compare in the future, and i'd be happy to donate 20PPC (should be more than enough for 1000's of transactions right??) from my mining shares for such a purpose if u can record and display the data in nice charts and graphs etc or send me the raw data??

Hope you all have a great weekend

[NothinG]

Just wanted to say I am working on a Chat forum specifically for PPCoin and hopefully should have up in a day or two

also RE the transaction fees NothingG, your going to have to have a play with a various send amounts and many address send amounts so... I would rather have a nice lot of data to analyse ro charts and graphs to compare in the future, and i'd be happy to donate 20PPC (should be more than enough for 1000's of transactions right??) from my mining shares for such a purpose if u can record and display the data in nice charts and graphs etc or send me the raw data??

Hope you all have a great weekend

If you need help with the forum (such as hosting [drop me a pm], forum design...and general mods), let us know.

I'm going to try with sendtoaddress and see how that works for now. After it gets to the point where people are withdrawing a lot and causing transaction fees to skyrocket, I'll start working on a script that does a sendmany. Currently, it's setup that the user sets aside 1 PPC in their account to handle their transaction (done automatically). I can set it up as a percentage donation, they will be listed in the sendmany letting the pool (from donations) pay for the transaction. I'm not really sure how that will work, but it at least helps me figure out where to spend donations.

I'll start logging all the data soon. I've still got a lot more work with the script to detect new blocks, as well as a script that will convert the ppcoind to database for my transactions. I'm getting to the point where transactions are going to be hard to read after ~100. Stack that with the average amount of people on the site at once, and you've got yourself a hell of a server load. Anyways, I'll send as much information as I can to the users (with their API key) letting them decide how they want to make their own graphs.

Code:

    {
        "account" : "",
        "address" : "PX5VvBLP9h6gQZj7n4wSkQwShbcJrdrFoS",
        "category" : "send",
        "amount" : -6482.75326000,
        "fee" : -0.01000000,
        "confirmations" : 0,
        "txid" : "1b4bb34f3b8db49b36e7d2ed4bc828302f6c20d5f1f3561d4f6ca36348e42560",
        "time" : 1345882115
    },
    {
        "account" : "",
        "address" : "PEbZFgW4xUdFoeQAvJuwiCdFuN8X9RLKa3",
        "category" : "receive",
        "amount" : 1.00000000,
        "confirmations" : 0,
        "txid" : "b5d4595cf548926ff50a56382904f162076a6e3a57ee268368493be2946e8b9c",
        "time" : 1345882115
    },
    {
        "account" : "",
        "address" : "PEbZFgW4xUdFoeQAvJuwiCdFuN8X9RLKa3",
        "category" : "send",
        "amount" : -1.00000000,
        "fee" : -0.01000000,
        "confirmations" : 0,
        "txid" : "b5d4595cf548926ff50a56382904f162076a6e3a57ee268368493be2946e8b9c",
        "time" : 1345882115
    }

In these transactions:
1-I've sent myself (from the pool, to my home wallet) 6482.75326 PPC.
2-The pool received the transaction from (3'd TXID).
3-Shows the pool sending 1 PPC to the pool's wallet.

Looks like each transaction cost 0.01 PPC.

[Edit]: Looks like 6482.75326 PPC showed up in my home wallet after 2 confirmations.

[TheSeven]

Does anyone know how to determine the transaction size (for the cost of the transaction) before the transaction is sent?
or...does anyone know if the fee for the transaction is included in the transaction itself?

Fees are calculated automatically by ppcoind. It's not included in the send amount so if you have no leftover balance to cover the fee then transaction cannot be sent.

Generally speaking sendtoaddress would incur 1 cent fee and sendmany would incur maybe more depending on how many different addresses you are sending to. After transaction is sent you can use listtransactions to see the exact fee paid for the transaction.

Hm, sending 50k freshly mined PPC (should be ~20 inputs) already caused 3 cent fee.

[Sunny King]

Hm, sending 50k freshly mined PPC (should be ~20 inputs) already caused 3 cent fee.

Oh right I stand corrected that you may pay more than 1 cent with sendtoaddress. Transaction fee is 1 cent per kilobyte.

[NothinG]

Hm, sending 50k freshly mined PPC (should be ~20 inputs) already caused 3 cent fee.

Oh right I stand corrected that you may pay more than 1 cent with sendtoaddress. Transaction fee is 1 cent per kilobyte.

Would it be possible to add within the next few release a method to determine the price of the transaction?

[Sunny King]

Would it be possible to add within the next few release a method to determine the price of the transaction?

It's tough to get an exact figure in advance as the list of inputs are selected by the client automatically. Although this per-kilobyte fee is actually a Bitcoin legacy. People may think Bitcoin has no fees, but there is only a small area of the block reserved for fee-free transactions in Bitcoin. Once transaction volume is way up and it would cause confusions to Bitcoin users as they do need to pay fee.

[FuzzyBear]

Just wanted to say I am working on a Chat forum specifically for PPCoin and hopefully should have up in a day or two

also RE the transaction fees NothingG, your going to have to have a play with a various send amounts and many address send amounts so... I would rather have a nice lot of data to analyse ro charts and graphs to compare in the future, and i'd be happy to donate 20PPC (should be more than enough for 1000's of transactions right??) from my mining shares for such a purpose if u can record and display the data in nice charts and graphs etc or send me the raw data??

Hope you all have a great weekend

If you need help with the forum (such as hosting [drop me a pm], forum design...and general mods), let us know.

I'm going to try with sendtoaddress and see how that works for now. After it gets to the point where people are withdrawing a lot and causing transaction fees to skyrocket, I'll start working on a script that does a sendmany. Currently, it's setup that the user sets aside 1 PPC in their account to handle their transaction (done automatically). I can set it up as a percentage donation, they will be listed in the sendmany letting the pool (from donations) pay for the transaction. I'm not really sure how that will work, but it at least helps me figure out where to spend donations.

I'll start logging all the data soon. I've still got a lot more work with the script to detect new blocks, as well as a script that will convert the ppcoind to database for my transactions. I'm getting to the point where transactions are going to be hard to read after ~100. Stack that with the average amount of people on the site at once, and you've got yourself a hell of a server load. Anyways, I'll send as much information as I can to the users (with their API key) letting them decide how they want to make their own graphs.


In these transactions:
1-I've sent myself (from the pool, to my home wallet) 6482.75326 PPC.
2-The pool received the transaction from (3'd TXID).
3-Shows the pool sending 1 PPC to the pool's wallet.

Looks like each transaction cost 0.01 PPC.

[Edit]: Looks like 6482.75326 PPC showed up in my home wallet after 2 confirmations.

We now have our own dedicated Forum for PPCoin discussion   http://ppcointalk.org feel free to join and use and give me feedback and tips please .... especially the "forum design...and general mods"