Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE

[crazy_rabbit]

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.

Blessed be thy blockchain? Church of Satoshi and Latter day coins.

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[MPOE-PR]

How do you know Gox's bank cares? Remember the bank is only seeing the withdrawals and deposits, they not seeing the bitcoins coming in and out, that are used to represent those dollars.

They're not just seeing withdrawals and deposits, they are seeing $20,000,000 a month worth of withdrawals and deposits. With that amount of money they know they are likely under the scrutiny of every regulatory body out there. It's likely why MtGox has had to resort to KYC and AML regulations as well, like a real bank.

And running graph theory analysis on the blockchain. Inputting the now known users-bitcoin-address pairs supplied by Gox, BitPay, Paymium (whoever) as fixed points makes such graph theory analysis much more successful .... just saying, the more data points that go in the better the analysis (i.e. the weaker the privacy of ALL bitcoin transactions become).

This would be why some exchanges correctly implementing Bitcoin do not use individual BTC addresses for users.

For a cookie, name the one from that "some."

[marcus_of_augustus]

How do you know Gox's bank cares? Remember the bank is only seeing the withdrawals and deposits, they not seeing the bitcoins coming in and out, that are used to represent those dollars.

They're not just seeing withdrawals and deposits, they are seeing $20,000,000 a month worth of withdrawals and deposits. With that amount of money they know they are likely under the scrutiny of every regulatory body out there. It's likely why MtGox has had to resort to KYC and AML regulations as well, like a real bank.

And running graph theory analysis on the blockchain. Inputting the now known users-bitcoin-address pairs supplied by Gox, BitPay, Paymium (whoever) as fixed points makes such graph theory analysis much more successful .... just saying, the more data points that go in the better the analysis (i.e. the weaker the privacy of ALL bitcoin transactions become).

This would be why some exchanges correctly implementing Bitcoin do not use individual BTC addresses for users.

For a cookie, name the one from that "some."

Indeed, a subtle yet crucial point.

So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

[Come-from-Beyond]

So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

I'll answer in case these are non-rhetorical questions:

We live in Information Age, more info = more money. Of coz they keep all info they get.

[Rob E]

I've personally attempted to get two of my regular restaurants on Polk street to accept bitcoin.  Apparently sales is not my thing.  I'm hoping this is a way to start using bitcoin without having to evangelize and harass people to accept bitcoin.

That's what I'm worried about guys, don't turn this into a religion, Bitcoin's own virtues will come out by itself when the next recession comes along.

when the " next recession comes a long? Isnt that a bit like saying you'll understand when the Titanic bangs another iceberg.. Another recession.. WE. ARE IN A recession THE recessions OF recessions WORLD wide. How could you have missed this. It doesnt make any sense.

[Boussac]

So davout does Bitcoin-Central require linking users ID to bitcoin addresses?
a) do you (or your regulators) intend to keep records of which users used which bitcoin addresses?
b) since the regulators are only concerned with the 'fiat' side of your business it seems they would not need to know what happens on the bitcoin side of the transaction graph, right?

The only static ID used by bitcoin-central is the BC account number (looking something like BC-U12345).

For convenience, Bitcoin-central provides also a bitcoin address that is renewed after each transaction to protect the user's privacy.

[Come-from-Beyond]

For convenience, Bitcoin-central provides also a bitcoin address that is renewed after each transaction to protect the user's privacy.

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

[Rob E]

Off course not but we'll have to agree to dissagree.. Hey. . Its all cool..

[Rob E]

I can pretty much say with certainty that this new exchange floor will offer a better exchange rate  then all other exchange floors why? Because banks manipulate markets..But hey . lets just agree to disagree.. hey. And if it happens in france whos to say it wont / cant happen in another country and then we can all link up to the system at the request of cavity searches wether legitimate or for something to do we can all be linked up through the bankers exchange floors dealing in bitcoins and we can all have a big partayy..

[Rob E]

and we can aaa  aaa aaalll agree to disagree . hey..

[davout]

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.

Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

[Rassah]

Because banks manipulate markets.

Unless you can provide some specific examples, that statement is about as relevant as "Because banks give you savings accounts." Banks can't manipulate things as deviously as many people think.

[ssaCEO]

I haven't read through this whole thread, but here are my main concerns:

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?

[Rob E]

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.

[/b]
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

Which was kinda the intrisic value of bitcoin itself isn't it. Which you are now trying to enslave through the banking system.

[davout]

1. Having lived a long time in France, I know how difficult it is to open a single Credit Agricole bank account if you do not have French citizenship. To me, it seems impossible that accounts could be opened in the names of your Bitcoin depositors and issued IBAN/SWIFT numbers for international transfer, if you do not have the account holder present with identification and a French tax code to open the bank account. How do you plan to work around these issues, and if you're planning to allow non-French citizens to have access to French banks, each with their own account numbers, what type of license do you have to do that?

We're going to work with Aqoba to do as much as is legally possible. Just because some French banks make it hard does not necessarily mean it legally isn't feasible to open accounts for foreigners. That is one thing.

The other thing is that requirements are different for bank accounts ("comptes de dépôt") and payment accounts ("comptes de paiement").

I honestly don't know what exactly is possible and what isn't. We'll be working with Aqoba, our lawyers and their lawyers to figure out exactly what is possible and what isn't. There is already one thing that is 100% sure : any resident, or corporation from a SEPA-zone country is able to open an account with us.

We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world.

The exact type of license we'll have for this is "IOBSP" ("Intermédiaire en Opérations de Banque et Services de Paiement"), Aqoba has an EP ("Établissement de Paiement") license (PSP).

2. Although I understand you're still growing, the volume on Bitcoin-Central is nowhere near enough to bring in the money to finance the above licensing (or even the overhead that would be required to run such a business). Where are your funds for backing this and when will your customers see documents showing you are sufficiently liquid to trust with deposits -- let alone deposits guaranteed by the French government?

You seem to be slightly confused here, one of the main points of this move is to allow our customers to trust us less. By this, I mean that the customer funds are safe, deposited in their own name (the customer's name), clearly segregated from our corporate funds. These funds are legally not our property. I can only let you imagine the catastrophic consequences of an unlicensed exchange being sued to bankruptcy by a state, a bank or some other party. If such a thing was to happen to us, all our clients would be safe to the very last cent.

The guarantee of the French government doesn't cover our own bankruptcy (as it wouldn't be needed since as I outlined, our funds are legally separated from our customers funds), it covers our customers against a default of the Crédit Mutuel Arkéa which is the backing financial institution. For an unlicensed exchange this guarantee is 100k€ globally for the comined customers balances, for us, the guarantee is 100k€ per customer.

[Technomage]

I don't really want to take sides on the debate since I understand both viewpoints but I do think that I side with davout on this one. Jon Matonis writes like it's the end of Bitcoin if exchanges accept regulation, no it's not. It's going to make Bitcoin grow. Not only that, it just gives us more motivation to support OTC trade, LocalBitcoins and put more effort in developing online p2p exchanges.

There can be different modes of operation within Bitcoin and if it does happen that because of the widespread regulation Bitcoin is difficult to use anonymously, then we will have another cryptocurrency, a less mainstream one, for that purpose. Bitcoin won't necessary be the tool of all trades, it might become inefficient for some use cases. Of course I wish it becomes as universal as possible but it might not work for everything.

[marcus_of_augustus]

We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world. We honestly didn't think there would be this kind of massive interest from Americans and other nationalities all around the world.

Welcome to the new age of fiscal facism ... US citizens will flock to anything that is somehow outside their fiscal prison of a banking system where you don't have to submit to the psychological equivalent of a full cavity search just to manage and transact with your own money.

You come across as being a little naive to the true nature of the battle going on out there ... good luck.

[Rob E]

^ link isn't valid,

[Rob E]

Will this protect user's privacy if BC is forced to give this info to Big Brother?

What do you think? If you want that kind of privacy, better avoid traditional banks altogether.

[/b]
Finally, someone speaking some sense.
Bitcoin is a vibrant ecosystem with lots of possibilities, lots of options. Localbitcoins by Jeremias Kangas is the first that comes to mind.

Bitcoin is not about doing thing one way or another, Bitcoin is about giving people choice to do things the way they wish.

Which was kinda the intrisic value of bitcoin itself isn't it. Which you are now trying to enslave through the banking system.

Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value, only things which we humans need to survive have intrinsic value to us. The sun has intrinsic value to humans. Gold does not have intrinsic value to humans.

Privacy is one of the subjective values of Bitcoin. If you value privacy, you can use Bitcoin in a manner that will preserve your privacy. Yet, this is not a requirement for using Bitcoin. I can link my identity to as many Bitcoin addresses as I please. This is entirely up to the user!

It's impossible to enslave Bitcoin by linking it to the traditional banking system. If you think it's possible, you had better take a deeper look at some of the properties of Bitcoin. Sure, governments can attempt to regulate or even outlaw Bitcoin, but they have no way of enforcing it upon savvy users. If they go so far as to alter the code and fork the chain, users can simply choose to ignore the new code and continue on the original chain. Even obtaining a majority of the hash rate and changing the rules does not force other users to follow those rules. If the traditional banks try to manipulate the system financially, let them! They will soon find that without a central bank acting as a lender of last resort, they will face the same risks as anyone else.

You seem to want everyone to use Bitcoin as you see fit. That's not freedom. If I want to deposit bitcoins into my traditional bank, and that option is available to me, who are you to tell me otherwise? At the same time, I can choose to ignore any links with the traditional banking system and continue to use bitcoin with full anonymity. This is entirely up to the user!

If you don't agree with this service, don't use it! But what are you trying to achieve by telling others what they should or should not do with their money?

 Really if you read the ECB report which basically came down to bitcoing being the enemy of the current money system which THEY proprietor ..Why do you think they want to do buisiness with you. . hm m ? Little too hard to think about too difficult. . don't care?

[Rob E]

well . . you could be  smarter then the ECB.