Health and Religion

[CoinCube]

Propaganda?  Did you read the book?  Read the book not what others say about this book.

Hitler would be a socialist, maybe even a communist. He hated what his father did for a living.  He was not a very bright anarchist, a very religious man, and foremost a nationalist; from the get-go....

Calling Hitler a very religious man is oversimplification. Hitler was a pantheist.

Adolf Hitler Was Neither Christian Nor Atheist
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/history-ideas/2017/02/adolf-hitler-was-neither-christian-nor-atheist/

In Hitler’s Religion, Richard Weikart thoroughly examines the evidence of the Nazi leader’s religious beliefs. Gary Scott Smith, calling the book a “fascinating, meticulous study,” summarizes its conclusions:

Hitler repeatedly affirmed the existence of God, but his conception of God differed substantially from the Bible’s. He rejected Christ’s divinity and frequently mocked Christianity. Hitler, Weikart points out, was a baptized, confirmed Catholic raised in Austria, a predominantly Catholic country, and he retained some vestiges of Christianity. Nevertheless, he repeatedly repudiated Christianity (especially privately) as “a Jewish plot to undermine the heroic ideals of the Aryan-dominated Roman Empire.” Hitler denounced Christianity as a poison, outmoded and dying, ridiculed its teachings, and persecuted Protestant and Catholic churches alike during the Third Reich [in cases when they refused to do his bidding]. Nor was Hitler an occultist, [as some have claimed], since he explicitly repudiated key occult convictions and mystical practices.

Weikart argues that Hitler is best understood as a pantheist, one who believes that nature is God and that the cosmos provides principles to guide human conduct. He frequently deified nature, referring to it as eternal and all powerful. . . . While presenting God as the creator and sustainer of the Volk—the German people—Hitler and the Nazis used religious symbols, terms, and passion in their speeches, rallies, and ceremonies to create an alternative faith. Hitler fully expected the Nazi worldview to replace Christianity in Germany and transform its culture and life. Moreover, Nazi propaganda depicted Hitler [himself] as a messianic figure, a savior chosen by God to liberate Germany from the punitive Versailles Treaty and restore its power and place in the world.

Most people do not realize how fortunate humanity was that WWII ended as quickly as it did and that the Nazi ideology was crushed. The ideal timing of the US entry into the war. The fortuitous and and worst recorded winter in modern history and the fact that Nazi foreign intelligence service the Abwehr was led by Wilhelm Canaris actively worked against a Nazi victory were all critical. The tremendous role played by Canaris in ensuring Nazi defeat cannot be understated and to the day is largely shrouded in mystery and not publicly released. Despite that the Nazi were very close to an early victory as the following video demonstrates in stark terms.

Eastern Front of WWII animated: 1941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu3p7dxrhl8

[CoinCube]

Not really. You just arbitrarily decided it is so.  If I showed you both pig and human fertilized eggs, you would not know the difference.

That does not change anything. Yes you cannot visually distinguish a human embryo from an animal one but so what one is a human at the beginning of its life the other is an animal. Why do you seek to dehumanize a substantial portion of your fellow human beings?

Earlier you stated this was your moral code?

- if the action causes harm, it is immoral

I am curious how you decided that killing someone does not count as harming them? Or is your stated moral code only for show something that rolls easily off of the tongue but is designed to be casually set aside when it becomes inconvenient?

[BADecker]

What evil is there in stem cell research?  I fail to see any.

You are equivocating fertilizing eggs and then disposing of them with murder.  Murdering a human being and not implanting a fertilized egg is not the same thing, IMHO.

You got carried away with your moral superiority complex.

Stem cell research is far from evil.  It solves many medical conditions.  If you believe in God as I am sure you do, you have to admit that this technology solves many issues that God created.  Inborn blindness and deafness come to mind.

How can you say that finding new cures is evil is beyond me?  Forbidding this technology is evil, IMHO.

We are not talking about rounding up children and killing them.  That is what you are implying.

A fertilized egg is simply the first stage of a new human life. Killing it, allowing it to die, or not preparing for it to live before fertilization, is murder.

Stem cell research from stem cells extracted from bone marrow is totally acceptable. Killing an embryo from day one on out to adulthood is murder, even to get the stem cells and the good they might do.

Stem cell research isn't evil. Killing people is evil, even if it's less than a second from when they were conceived that they are murdered.

Not really. You just arbitrarily decided it is so.  If I showed you both pig and human fertilized eggs, you would not know the difference.

http://www.fofweb.com/Electronic_Images/onfiles/SciAniAnat1-14c.gif

Here is an article about what is coming down the pipe.  It is not as simple as you (and CoinCube) think.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/opinion-should-human-animal-chimeras-be-granted-personhood-36664

Just hold out your hand and show me "pig and human fertilized eggs" therein. Ah, hold it in the light a little more. Ah, move your hand to the right... no, to the left. You almost had me there. There isn't really anything in your hand, is there?

If science is too ignorant or weak to see the epigenetic markers that make the distinctions between the various eggs of the creatures, AND the way the epigenetic markers get there, what do we do? Kill the human because we can't tell that it is human? Or raise the pig for bacon?

And you talk about God weeding out wicked people. You show that you are one of the wicked people. Repent while you have time.

[CoinCube]

PS. Working with fertilized eggs and extracting stem cells in the process is not causing harm, it is helping people.

I see so if I kill you before you have developed enough to know you are being killed it’s all good as long as I use your parts to help others?

You have fully embraced the modern narrative of death.

It is sad that you cannot understand that knowledge gained at such a price is a Faustian bargain.

[BADecker]

What evil is there in stem cell research?  I fail to see any.

You are equivocating fertilizing eggs and then disposing of them with murder.  Murdering a human being and not implanting a fertilized egg is not the same thing, IMHO.

You got carried away with your moral superiority complex.

Stem cell research is far from evil.  It solves many medical conditions.  If you believe in God as I am sure you do, you have to admit that this technology solves many issues that God created.  Inborn blindness and deafness come to mind.

How can you say that finding new cures is evil is beyond me?  Forbidding this technology is evil, IMHO.

We are not talking about rounding up children and killing them.  That is what you are implying.

A fertilized egg is simply the first stage of a new human life. Killing it, allowing it to die, or not preparing for it to live before fertilization, is murder.

Stem cell research from stem cells extracted from bone marrow is totally acceptable. Killing an embryo from day one on out to adulthood is murder, even to get the stem cells and the good they might do.

Stem cell research isn't evil. Killing people is evil, even if it's less than a second from when they were conceived that they are murdered.

Not really. You just arbitrarily decided it is so.  If I showed you both pig and human fertilized eggs, you would not know the difference.

http://www.fofweb.com/Electronic_Images/onfiles/SciAniAnat1-14c.gif

Here is an article about what is coming down the pipe.  It is not as simple as you (and CoinCube) think.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/opinion-should-human-animal-chimeras-be-granted-personhood-36664

Just hold out your hand and show me "pig and human fertilized eggs" therein. Ah, hold it in the light a little more. Ah, move your hand to the right... no, to the left. You almost had me there. There isn't really anything in your hand, is there?

If science is too ignorant or weak to see the epigenetic markers that make the distinctions between the various eggs of the creatures, AND the way the epigenetic markers get there, what do we do? Kill the human because we can't tell that it is human? Or raise the pig for bacon?

And you talk about God weeding out wicked people. You show that you are one of the wicked people. Repent while you have time.

Just wait until someone in your family gets a genetic disorder causing them to lose eyesight or hearing. You will sing to a different tune.

Wicked ones?  You are a joke.  Are babies born with open spines the wicked ones?  How about kids who are blind at birth?

Some weeding out.  Sentencing these people to lifelong suffering is evil.  Blocking research that can help them is evil.

No, the wicked ones are the murderers, who would use any excuse to do their murdering, even the excuse that murdering several over here will save several over there.

You don't seem to realize that the murderers are doing their murdering so that they can make money. Your unwillingness to recognize this simple fact leads me to believe that you just might be an abortion doctor. But even if you are not, since you agree with them - the abortion doctors - you are a murder by implication... self-implication.

[IadixDev]

The nazi model infiltrated our society more than we can think, lot of nazi have been recruted in scientific position after ww2.

The only parallel I see between Nazi Germany and Western democracies is patriotism, fervent nationalism, "Make XXX Great Again", etc.
This does not bode well for humanity.

Most scientists are not nationalists, most support internationalism.

Name one scientist who is a nationalist.

Read "Mein Kampf" before you open your mouth on the "nazi model".  Whatever that means.

Hitler was a German nationalist, first and foremost.

Its much deeper than that, the nationalism is just a media to reel people in, mein kempf is propaganda , the Real ideology is Henry Ford, productivism and profits over human values. No sacrifice is too high to get an industrial one up over other nation etc

After ww2, the nazi went CIA, swarmed to south america, middle east, Afganistan etc to concoct civil wars and coup to promote "industrial développement" by exploiting ressources and people to build their Ford topia global.

Now its to the point most people think being scientist is building the next cellphone Who will make the next top company, originally science is studying things and building axiomatic reasoning.

A person who thinks scientists are building cell phones does not understand what scientists do.

And that is the crux of the problem.  Lack of education.

You are reading too much into Huxley's "Brave New World".  Although, I admit it is a good book.  It does make you think about the society we live in.

Its not from brave new world, even if this story is also about that. Mein kempf is propaganda, the persons who write propaganda know its a lie , a forgery and a fraud. If you read the propaganda and think its what the people who write it think, you dont understand how propaganda works. Even the nationalist leagues were funded by the big industrials, To reel the working class in, but its not the essence of the ideology.

Propaganda?  Did you read the book?  Read the book not what others say about this book.

Hitler would be a socialist, maybe even a communist. He hated what his father did for a living.  He was not a very bright anarchist, a very religious man, and foremost a nationalist; from the get-go.  Failed at anything he tried academically.  His parents died early on in his life, he was uprooted from his bourgeois social standing. It is an autobiography, written between 1923-1925, in the same genre as Trotsky's My Life.

BTW, if Hitler would only listen to his father, study in school and get a government job like the rest of his bourgeois friends, we would not have WWII and atrocities that came with it.

Read both books.

Nationalism, religious or social class supremacy is evil.  The worse form of tribalism there is.  Most wars start because of one of them.

I have read mein kempf, what i remind of it is mostly the style of writing, very sentimental, its there you see Hitler was very sentimental and an artist he was also a painter before, and mein kempf show him being sad with the state of the country and essentially playing violin, which is what is called a charismatic leader. From the tantric way its obvious he practice black tantra, instilling despair and focusing on the pain and bad feelings, with the result that we know. But its mostly emotional manipulation, in order To inspire a certain behavior and suggest certains solutions. But when manipulators write a pièce To manipulate people, you can say there is nothing genuine in it. Its manipulation, propaganda.

But mein kempf didnt influence high rank nazi all that much, compared To Henry Ford who was more the model for the new world, with the international jew, or evola, even theosophy in some part.

The superiority feeling i also rooted in wasp culture, that some people mostly White are genetically superior and the other are inferior races and it has very little To do with nationalism at core. Taking a swatika from the other side of the world as a flag show it has more in common with evola, aryanism, and certain theory about lost tradition with the hyper borean, than with meinkempf or nationalism.

[CoinCube]

Your assumption that a fertilized egg is a human being is ridiculous. Who told you that a fertilized egg is a human being?  Whoever did that, knew squat about human biology.  And you think you are a medical doctor?

As for your poetic reference to the Faustian bargain, well, I don't know what soul is, so I don't know what mythological mumbo-jumbo you are talking about.  As for morals, my morals are superior to most of the Bible book club members.

There is no assumption just fact. Human life begins at sperm-egg fusion this is an uncontested scientific and objective conclusion. Furthermore it it’s a conclusion reached independently of any ethical or religious view of human life.

Development and growth is a continuous process but your attempt to argue that early human life has no value is logically flawed. Your “personhood” criteria a stage where you feel young human beings are suddenly deserving of being extended basic human rights is utterly arbitrary. You have deliberately avoided defining it because you know it’s arbitrary and that there is no solid scientific grounds for making such a distinction. Life begins at conception.

In regards to your claim of moral superiority... Well let’s just say we I think you are doing a good job showing us all what your morals really are.

[CoinCube]

I thought we were talking about human beings?  

Human beings are not magically made at conception/fertilization.

It is a long process to get from a fertilized egg to a human being.

A fertilized egg is not a human being.  It can become one, but it is not at conception/fertilization.

Again you attempt to create an arbitrary disctinction without foundation.
Even your language is misleading. A egg after union of ovum and sperm is no longer an egg at all. It is inappropriate to call it one. The new life is a single celled embryo or if you want to be extremely technical a zygote.

We are talking about human beings. Early undeveloped human beings but human nevertheless. Humans go through many changes over the course of our lives. The embryo is different than the infant, the child, the adult, and the elderly and infirm. All stages are different but all are human and deserving of human rights and dignity.

.

As for fetuses being somehow independent human life, well, they are part of a woman, so technically it is a woman life we are talking about.

At some point, the viability stage, you have to separate the two and say you have two human beings.

But at fertilization, on a petri dish?  You are just irrational.

A fetus is certainly not independent it is a life that needs its mother for a time to survive a need that extends long after birth.

That is the primary reason why sexual activity outside of marriage is ethically problematic. It often brings new human life into the world. New human life that emerges into an environment that often does not welcome or support its existence. It is immoral to engage in activities that lead to such an outcome.

[BADecker]

Letting a fertilized egg die is not murder.

As for abortion, fetuses do not have rights, women do have rights.

I think abortions should be free and allowed to around 8-10 weeks.  There is nothing wrong with removing a little wart growing on the uterus wall.

When that wart becomes a viable child, I do have a problem with killing that child.  If it is between a woman's life and the baby, I would say a woman should be saved, not the baby.

What you guys are proposing is that fertilized human eggs should have a legal 'person' status.  That is just ridiculous.

A fertilized egg is just a bunch of cells on a petri dish.  Murder?  You guys are irrational.

Fertilizing an egg and making a human being by this fertilization is what we are talking about. Doing the fertilizing without preparing for life for the human so created is negligent homicide in common language, not legal language.

The woman gave up some of her rights when she placed herself in the position of being trustee for another human.

Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.

No! Humans should NOT have legal "person" status. See https://redress4dummies.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/office-of-person1.pdf.

A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.

If you are so against human life, why are you not suiciding yourself? Just a question. Don't do it. Your troubles will only be beginning if you do. You will have to face God in the judgment for your own murder.



EDIT: Banning stem cell research is the only safe way we can keep from murdering people... at this stage of our knowledge. Why? Because we don't know much about the epigenetic markers that control stem cells for making a human being. Once we know about and can control the epigenetic markers, so that we don't accidentally make a human (that we kill later), then (maybe) we can go ahead with such research in a right way.

[BADecker]

Letting a fertilized egg die is not murder.

As for abortion, fetuses do not have rights, women do have rights.

I think abortions should be free and allowed to around 8-10 weeks.  There is nothing wrong with removing a little wart growing on the uterus wall.

When that wart becomes a viable child, I do have a problem with killing that child.  If it is between a woman's life and the baby, I would say a woman should be saved, not the baby.

What you guys are proposing is that fertilized human eggs should have a legal 'person' status.  That is just ridiculous.

A fertilized egg is just a bunch of cells on a petri dish.  Murder?  You guys are irrational.

Fertilizing an egg and making a human being by this fertilization is what we are talking about. Doing the fertilizing without preparing for life for the human so created is negligent homicide in common language, not legal language.

The woman gave up some of her rights when she placed herself in the position of being trustee for another human.

Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.

No! Humans should NOT have legal "person" status. See https://redress4dummies.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/office-of-person1.pdf.

A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.

If you are so against human life, why are you not suiciding yourself? Just a question. Don't do it. Your troubles will only be beginning if you do. You will have to face God in the judgment for your own murder.



EDIT: Banning stem cell research is the only safe way we can keep from murdering people... at this stage of our knowledge. Why? Because we don't know much about the epigenetic markers that control stem cells for making a human being. Once we know about and can control the epigenetic markers, so that we don't accidentally make a human (that we kill later), then (maybe) we can go ahead with such research in a right way.

Do you even realize that you have more reasons to commit suicide than me? I have none.  I am an Atheist, remember?  I have more reasons to live than you.

Show some empathy to people who suffer, don't focus all your energy on fertilized eggs on a petri dish.  This research can enhance the lives of millions of people, forever!!!

What are you afraid of?  That one day we will be able to create human eggs, and sperm in the lab, and make humans at will.  And your religion will join the rest of mythologies we have learned in the history class, is this what you are afraid of?

What is your beef in this?  Why do you care if fertilized eggs die on their own and don't care when kids die in Ethiopia or Syria?

Whew! I was afraid, there, for a moment, that you might commit suicide, and we'd all be out of your humorous posts that we laugh at.

Killing people to enhance the lives of others is what war is all about. But you are too chicken to go fight in a real war, so you fight the embryos and fetuses. Big brave af-newbie.

What are you so afraid of? enhance your life in the millions of ways available that don't have to do with murdering human beings... especially humans in their most vulnerable period in life. (Big brave af-newbie.)

What's the matter? Attempting to pry into my inner thoughts and emotions just to blab? If you even made any sense, it would be amazing.

[BADecker]

Letting a fertilized egg die is not murder.

As for abortion, fetuses do not have rights, women do have rights.

I think abortions should be free and allowed to around 8-10 weeks.  There is nothing wrong with removing a little wart growing on the uterus wall.

When that wart becomes a viable child, I do have a problem with killing that child.  If it is between a woman's life and the baby, I would say a woman should be saved, not the baby.

What you guys are proposing is that fertilized human eggs should have a legal 'person' status.  That is just ridiculous.

A fertilized egg is just a bunch of cells on a petri dish.  Murder?  You guys are irrational.

Fertilizing an egg and making a human being by this fertilization is what we are talking about. Doing the fertilizing without preparing for life for the human so created is negligent homicide in common language, not legal language.

The woman gave up some of her rights when she placed herself in the position of being trustee for another human.

Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.

No! Humans should NOT have legal "person" status. See https://redress4dummies.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/office-of-person1.pdf.

A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.

If you are so against human life, why are you not suiciding yourself? Just a question. Don't do it. Your troubles will only be beginning if you do. You will have to face God in the judgment for your own murder.



EDIT: Banning stem cell research is the only safe way we can keep from murdering people... at this stage of our knowledge. Why? Because we don't know much about the epigenetic markers that control stem cells for making a human being. Once we know about and can control the epigenetic markers, so that we don't accidentally make a human (that we kill later), then (maybe) we can go ahead with such research in a right way.

Do you even realize that you have more reasons to commit suicide than me? I have none.  I am an Atheist, remember?  I have more reasons to live than you.

Show some empathy to people who suffer, don't focus all your energy on fertilized eggs on a petri dish.  This research can enhance the lives of millions of people, forever!!!

What are you afraid of?  That one day we will be able to create human eggs, and sperm in the lab, and make humans at will.  And your religion will join the rest of mythologies we have learned in the history class, is this what you are afraid of?

What is your beef in this?  Why do you care if fertilized eggs die on their own and don't care when kids die in Ethiopia or Syria?

Whew! I was afraid, there, for a moment, that you might commit suicide, and we'd all be out of your humorous posts that we laugh at.

Killing people to enhance the lives of others is what war is all about. But you are too chicken to go fight in a real war, so you fight the embryos and fetuses. Big brave af-newbie.

What are you so afraid of? enhance your life in the millions of ways available that don't have to do with murdering human beings... especially humans in their most vulnerable period in life. (Big brave af-newbie.)

What's the matter? Attempting to pry into my inner thoughts and emotions just to blab? If you even made any sense, it would be amazing.

Do you think fertilized eggs on a petri dish are people?  Oh, boy, you guys are special, aren't you?

PS. I would not go to any war, even if I was younger.  I am a pacifist. Let the other idiots fight wars.  Wars accomplish nothing, destroy our resources, kill bunch of people to redraw the borders on the map.  Nothing changes.

At what stage do you consider the human being to be a human? Do you have factual info that such age is really the right age? After all, the whole human genome of the human in question is present in that fertilized egg in the petri dish, the moment it is fertilized.

Are you saying that you would rather err on the side of killing a human rather than letting him/her live? Don't you realize that you are fomenting war against your own nation by being in favor of abortion freedom?

In the Bible, when they offered their children as sacrifices to their false gods, they at least had a reason. But now they murder their kids just for convenience, or so that they can increase their pleasure. I hadn't realize how warped you really are.

[IadixDev]

Letting a fertilized egg die is not murder.

As for abortion, fetuses do not have rights, women do have rights.

I think abortions should be free and allowed to around 8-10 weeks.  There is nothing wrong with removing a little wart growing on the uterus wall.

When that wart becomes a viable child, I do have a problem with killing that child.  If it is between a woman's life and the baby, I would say a woman should be saved, not the baby.

What you guys are proposing is that fertilized human eggs should have a legal 'person' status.  That is just ridiculous.

A fertilized egg is just a bunch of cells on a petri dish.  Murder?  You guys are irrational.

Fertilizing an egg and making a human being by this fertilization is what we are talking about. Doing the fertilizing without preparing for life for the human so created is negligent homicide in common language, not legal language.

The woman gave up some of her rights when she placed herself in the position of being trustee for another human.

Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.

No! Humans should NOT have legal "person" status. See https://redress4dummies.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/office-of-person1.pdf.

A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.

If you are so against human life, why are you not suiciding yourself? Just a question. Don't do it. Your troubles will only be beginning if you do. You will have to face God in the judgment for your own murder.



EDIT: Banning stem cell research is the only safe way we can keep from murdering people... at this stage of our knowledge. Why? Because we don't know much about the epigenetic markers that control stem cells for making a human being. Once we know about and can control the epigenetic markers, so that we don't accidentally make a human (that we kill later), then (maybe) we can go ahead with such research in a right way.

Do you even realize that you have more reasons to commit suicide than me? I have none.  I am an Atheist, remember?  I have more reasons to live than you.

Show some empathy to people who suffer, don't focus all your energy on fertilized eggs on a petri dish.  This research can enhance the lives of millions of people, forever!!!

What are you afraid of?  That one day we will be able to create human eggs, and sperm in the lab, and make humans at will.  And your religion will join the rest of mythologies we have learned in the history class, is this what you are afraid of?

What is your beef in this?  Why do you care if fertilized eggs die on their own and don't care when kids die in Ethiopia or Syria?

Whew! I was afraid, there, for a moment, that you might commit suicide, and we'd all be out of your humorous posts that we laugh at.

Killing people to enhance the lives of others is what war is all about. But you are too chicken to go fight in a real war, so you fight the embryos and fetuses. Big brave af-newbie.

What are you so afraid of? enhance your life in the millions of ways available that don't have to do with murdering human beings... especially humans in their most vulnerable period in life. (Big brave af-newbie.)

What's the matter? Attempting to pry into my inner thoughts and emotions just to blab? If you even made any sense, it would be amazing.

Do you think fertilized eggs on a petri dish are people?  Oh, boy, you guys are special, aren't you?

PS. I would not go to any war, even if I was younger.  I am a pacifist. Let the other idiots fight wars.  Wars accomplish nothing, destroy our resources, kill bunch of people to redraw the borders on the map.  Nothing changes.

At what stage do you consider the human being to be a human? Do you have factual info that such age is really the right age? After all, the whole human genome of the human in question is present in that fertilized egg in the petri dish, the moment it is fertilized.

Are you saying that you would rather err on the side of killing a human rather than letting him/her live? Don't you realize that you are fomenting war against your own nation by being in favor of abortion freedom?

In the Bible, when they offered their children as sacrifices to their false gods, they at least had a reason. But now they murder their kids just for convenience, or so that they can increase their pleasure. I hadn't realize how warped you really are.

I dont think we have a lot of information on this, its the problem Imo, we are far to really know that much about what make life Alive and when it should be ok to use it as a tool in some process.

When scientist can create a cell from scratch and create complex life form that can thrive survive reproduce and be happy then we talk, but we are still far from this.

For the moment we are far to understand all the possible consequence and stake of this.

I guess it often how science progress, first they make plenty of mistake with zero ethics and after a while some Real science can émerge from it.

But in the case they should better think twice and study everything enough to have better bases to fund a strong ethic uppon, for the moment they are still playing with fire, but i guess its how you get progress faster, and there is going to be a whole juicy business around this before we start to get a Real clue about that.

[CoinCube]

Some human beings will never be human. LOL.
...
A fertilized egg...  

Ah more dehumanizing language despite having been shown that it is not the most scientifically accurate language to use. Once again the proper term for what you are describing is a single celled embryo or zygote.

'Less Than Human': The Psychology Of Cruelty
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134956180/criminals-see-their-victims-as-less-than-human

During the Holocaust, Nazis referred to Jews as rats. Hutus involved in the Rwanda genocide called Tutsis cockroaches. Slave owners throughout history considered slaves subhuman animals. In Less Than Human, David Livingstone Smith argues that it's important to define and describe dehumanization, because it's what opens the door for cruelty and genocide.
...
This is just the latest iteration in a pattern that has unfolded time and again over the course of history. In ancient Chinese, Egyptian and Mesopotamian literature, Smith found repeated references to enemies as subhuman creatures. But it's not as simple as a comparison. "When people dehumanize others, they actually conceive of them as subhuman creatures," says Smith. Only then can the process "liberate aggression and exclude the target of aggression from the moral community."

When the Nazis described Jews as Untermenschen, or subhumans, they didn't mean it metaphorically, says Smith. "They didn't mean they were like subhumans. They meant they were literally subhuman."
...
A rough answer isn't hard to come by. Thinking sets the agenda for action, and thinking of humans as less than human paves the way for atrocity.

[CoinCube]

Why are you making an exception for a bunch of cells on a petri dish?  Because a fertilized egg has the potential of becoming a human being?

I don't care what the Bible says.  This is the vilest book I have ever read. You can safely dismiss EVERYTHING the Bible says.

A fertilized egg is not a human being.  If you think it is, show me?  Does it have a brain and liver?  How about the lungs?

There is no exception. A skin cell is not a unique human with the potential for independent life. With a little time and support the human embryo will not only unfold into all of the secondary characteristics you so value it will also eventually learn to stand on its own and support itself.

Clearly you should care about what the Bible says perhaps then you would not be so keen to sacrifice the most vulnerable human lives upon the alter of science.  

[CoinCube]

I am not dehumanizing anyone.  WTF are you talking about?

....

When you throw away fertilized eggs human embryos you are not killing humans like you are suggesting.  Those are just human cells like some spit on the side of the road.  

You are dehumanizing new human life at its earliest stages comparing it to spit on the side of the road.

You think this is justified and that the new human life really is just spit on the side of the road and should be treated like spit. In this you fall into the same tired pattern as the Tutsis, the Nazis, and the slavers highlighted above.

But this is different you say. These humans really are just spit they are not conscious, they are helpless, undeveloped, weak, and dependent on tremendous outside intervention to even stay alive. Without a mother they will quickly wither and die. That is all true but they are nevertheless human.

We are highly unlikely to agree on this topic.    

[BADecker]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

[BADecker]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

Does your 'fertilized egg' have medulla oblongata, or any other specialized organ that human beings have?

Why are you calling it a 'human being'?

Who said I like killing humans?  I am not your Biblical God.

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

[BADecker]

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

I will make it really simple for you and your sidekick CoinCube.

You just picked up a fresh, fertilized chicken egg.
Are you holding an egg or a chicken?

Now, a researcher handed you a petri dish with
a fertilized human egg.

Are you holding a petri dish with a fertilized human
egg or a human being?

Hint: We make omelets from eggs not chickens.

Thank you for making it doubly simple for me to make it simple for you.

Fertilized chicken eggs are chickens in process. Just because we don't think or talk of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we cook and eat the chicken, so we cook and eat the egg. Like we cook and eat the egg, so we cook and eat the chicken. Simple, right? They are in process up until the time we cook and eat them, or until they die of old age.

Now, considering people. Fertilized human eggs are people in process. Just because some judges or wacky scientists don't think of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we kill people in war, so we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion. Like we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion, so we kill people in war.

The petri dish holds a human being in early stages of life... except if you kill the human.

[IadixDev]

Why are you making an exception for a bunch of cells on a petri dish?  Because a fertilized egg has the potential of becoming a human being?

I don't care what the Bible says.  This is the vilest book I have ever read. You can safely dismiss EVERYTHING the Bible says.

A fertilized egg is not a human being.  If you think it is, show me?  Does it have a brain and liver?  How about the lungs?

There is no exception. A skin cell is not a unique human with the potential for independent life. With a little time and support the human embryo will not only unfold into all of the secondary characteristics you so value it will also eventually learn to stand on its own and support itself.

Clearly you should care about what the Bible says perhaps then you would not be so keen to sacrifice the most vulnerable human lives upon the alter of science.  

Even without going into the bible what i find worrying is how medical science is straying away from hypocrathes oath. I can understand practice can evolve and we dont have To stick To 2000 years old practice and ethics, but on the general principle of what the role of a physician is supposed to be about, which is protecting life, not doing any action that will harm life, and the only practice he is allowed to do is to cure a disease or ailment, which also exclude abortion from medical practice.

Now it seems its going all corporate, even with organ traffic, and all kind of things that make it look more like bio industry than the original principles in which pharmaceutics and physicians are supposed To be grounded.

https://youtu.be/dYtqtwfJviI :p

[CoinCube]

But physically your 'chickens in process' are not chickens, they are eggs, right?

If I asked you to draw an egg, what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw a chicken, what would you draw?

You are too tied up in superficial and transient external characteristics.

If I asked you to draw a newborn baby chick what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw an adult rooster what would you draw?

These look nothing like each other but they are just stages of development of the same creation. The same is true of the embryo.

Embryo:


Chick:


Adult: