Health and Religion

[BADecker]

And again your argument exposes your own god.

1. If god doesn't direct miracles because that would take away my freedom why does he answer any prayer at all? Anything that he does would take away someone's freedom.

2. Evolution explains everything, there is no need for god, even the majority of religious people accept evolution.

God is your God, too. But if you continue to reject Him, you will lose Him, permanently, at your death.

1. When people recognize God enough to pray to Him in faith, He is answering prayer because they used their free choice to accept Him. He is simply doing what they are asking along with their formal prayer... strengthening their faith.

2. If evolution weren't science fiction, if there was even one proof that could be factually shown to be evolution rather than something else, if there was nothing against evolution that showed how impossible it is, then we might be able to guess that evolution could possibly be real.

In the other thread (which you never debunked, btw), the proofs for God show that He is real, besides being the only alternative to evolution sci-fi that people have been able to come up with.

1. Do you realize that strengthening their faith also takes their freedom away because he is reassuring them that he exists which is unfair for the other people since he doesn't help the ones that don't believe in him.


2. More and more religious people accept evolution, you are one of the few that don't.

In the other thread you haven't responded many times to my debunking, you simply copy paste some shitty sentence or you don't respond at all, you can check who commented last.

1. Wrong, because it is their faith that is freely asking for such strengthening.

2. There is nobody who is perfect. As long as they are sincere, and believe in Jesus salvation, they will be saved. God, of course, will be the judge of their strength of Jesus faith.

In the other thread, you can't seem to explain any of your so-called debunking. Because of this, you don't know that it is debunking. Thus, your suggestion that you have been doing such debunking is irrelevant.

Besides, the definition of religion - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t - shows that your religion is what you believe as shown by how you act. Since you believe that science and medicine can heal you when it is well known that it can't, you are believing in poor health. It is your religion.

At the same time, medical people are often astounded at the faith healings that they observe among people who are faithful to God, and show their faith by their prayer.

Placebo effect might be working for you a little, but God is working, often through placebo-like effect for His people.

[Astargath]

And again your argument exposes your own god.

1. If god doesn't direct miracles because that would take away my freedom why does he answer any prayer at all? Anything that he does would take away someone's freedom.

2. Evolution explains everything, there is no need for god, even the majority of religious people accept evolution.

God is your God, too. But if you continue to reject Him, you will lose Him, permanently, at your death.

1. When people recognize God enough to pray to Him in faith, He is answering prayer because they used their free choice to accept Him. He is simply doing what they are asking along with their formal prayer... strengthening their faith.

2. If evolution weren't science fiction, if there was even one proof that could be factually shown to be evolution rather than something else, if there was nothing against evolution that showed how impossible it is, then we might be able to guess that evolution could possibly be real.

In the other thread (which you never debunked, btw), the proofs for God show that He is real, besides being the only alternative to evolution sci-fi that people have been able to come up with.

1. Do you realize that strengthening their faith also takes their freedom away because he is reassuring them that he exists which is unfair for the other people since he doesn't help the ones that don't believe in him.


2. More and more religious people accept evolution, you are one of the few that don't.

In the other thread you haven't responded many times to my debunking, you simply copy paste some shitty sentence or you don't respond at all, you can check who commented last.

1. Wrong, because it is their faith that is freely asking for such strengthening.

2. There is nobody who is perfect. As long as they are sincere, and believe in Jesus salvation, they will be saved. God, of course, will be the judge of their strength of Jesus faith.

In the other thread, you can't seem to explain any of your so-called debunking. Because of this, you don't know that it is debunking. Thus, your suggestion that you have been doing such debunking is irrelevant.

Besides, the definition of religion - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t - shows that your religion is what you believe as shown by how you act. Since you believe that science and medicine can heal you when it is well known that it can't, you are believing in poor health. It is your religion.

At the same time, medical people are often astounded at the faith healings that they observe among people who are faithful to God, and show their faith by their prayer.

Placebo effect might be working for you a little, but God is working, often through placebo-like effect for His people.

1. Then we are back to square 1, plenty of people prayed to God in faith to save their family or for someone to grow back a limb and yet those things don't happen, maybe saving someone but I've never seen someone grow a limb back.

2. Again your whole argument is flawed, you never explain how this faith/free will works. You start believing in god even when you are in the womb but then everyone is going to have a different life, their faith is going to be conditioned by their environment which they don't control, god does, god is responsible for them in the end.

[BADecker]

1. Then we are back to square 1, plenty of people prayed to God in faith to save their family or for someone to grow back a limb and yet those things don't happen, maybe saving someone but I've never seen someone grow a limb back.

2. Again your whole argument is flawed, you never explain how this faith/free will works. You start believing in god even when you are in the womb but then everyone is going to have a different life, their faith is going to be conditioned by their environment which they don't control, god does, god is responsible for them in the end.

1. You miss the biggest part. Praying to God keeps the bad things from happening in the first place most of the time. It's only when the enemy, the devil and his hordes of demons gain a foothold in large areas like many of the countries where Christianity isn't prevalent that we see more harm happening.

2. I explain enough. You can't explain the ins and outs of subatomic particles. You can't even seem to understand how you are directed by cause and effect. If you could understand these things a little, you might begin to understand my explanations of how God gives freedom and yet directs everything.

As far as God being responsible in the end, that's why He gives Jesus salvation. In the end, those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Those who do not believe will be condemned. You have the free choice right now. Accept what you will, salvation or condemnation. God is holding it open for you to choose. Your choice for yourself, not God's for you.

[Astargath]

1. Then we are back to square 1, plenty of people prayed to God in faith to save their family or for someone to grow back a limb and yet those things don't happen, maybe saving someone but I've never seen someone grow a limb back.

2. Again your whole argument is flawed, you never explain how this faith/free will works. You start believing in god even when you are in the womb but then everyone is going to have a different life, their faith is going to be conditioned by their environment which they don't control, god does, god is responsible for them in the end.

1. You miss the biggest part. Praying to God keeps the bad things from happening in the first place most of the time. It's only when the enemy, the devil and his hordes of demons gain a foothold in large areas like many of the countries where Christianity isn't prevalent that we see more harm happening.

2. I explain enough. You can't explain the ins and outs of subatomic particles. You can't even seem to understand how you are directed by cause and effect. If you could understand these things a little, you might begin to understand my explanations of how God gives freedom and yet directs everything.

As far as God being responsible in the end, that's why He gives Jesus salvation. In the end, those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Those who do not believe will be condemned. You have the free choice right now. Accept what you will, salvation or condemnation. God is holding it open for you to choose. Your choice for yourself, not God's for you.

I'm so glad you said that at 1. because it is so easy to disprove. One easy example, brazil, ''Brazil is home to the largest population of Christians in South America'' yet Brazil is far from being a peaceful country, it's like top 10 in murder rate. Plenty of examples like that.. lol

2. Nah you didn't explain anything, the fact is we are all different, we are all born in different situations, all those situations affect us, if being here on earth is a test, it's not a fair test, god is not fair.

[CoinCube]

Venezuela (89%), Honduras (87%) and El Salvador (80%) are very Christian countries.  Where is CoinCube to point out how Christian values help societies and that without Christianity people would be killing each other in the streets?   Oh, wait, that is what they are doing in those three countries.

Venezuela is only nominally Catholic. It is true that a supermajority the population says they are Catholic but only 10% of those Catholic's are highly observant.

The religion of Socialism appears to have replaced Christianity for large numbers of Venezuelans with predictable consequences.

https://warisboring.com/as-venezuela-falls-apart-its-people-build-a-new-faith/

In 2011, according to a poll taken by Venezuela’s Social Investigation Group XXI, 71 percent of Venezuelans identified as Catholic.

I admit that the situation in Honduras and El Salvador appears be different as these countries are religious societies that are nevertheless plagued by severe and uncontrolled gang violence especially MS-13.

It is notable that many of these gangs trace their roots to US policy. MS-13 was formed by Central American refugees fleeing chaos in their home countries. Chaos that the US played no small part in. After its formation in the gang culture of Los Angeles we then deported MS13 back to Central America where it thrives amid the weakened government there.

U.S. Interventions in El Salvador
http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

1944
The dictator Maximiliano Hernández Martínez of El Salvador is ousted by a revolution; the interim government is overthrown five months later by the dictator's former chief of police. The U.S.'s immediate recognition of the new dictator does much to tarnish Roosevelt's Good Neighbor policy in the eyes of Latin Americans.

1960
A new junta in El Salvador promises free elections; Eisenhower, fearing leftist tendencies, withholds recognition. A more attractive right-wing counter-coup comes along in three months.

"Governments of the civil-military type of El Salvador are the most effective in containing communist penetration in Latin America." --John F. Kennedy, after the coup

1968
Gen. José Alberto Medrano, who is on the payroll of the CIA, organizes the ORDEN paramilitary force, considered the precursor of El Salvador's death squads.

1972
U.S. stands by as military suspends an election in El Salvador in which centrist José Napoleón Duarte was favored to win. (Compare with the emphasis placed on the 1982 elections.)

1980
A right-wing junta takes over in El Salvador. U.S. begins massively supporting El Salvador, assisting the military in its fight against FMLN guerrillas. Death squads proliferate; Archbishop Romero is assassinated by right-wing terrorists; 35,000 civilians are killed in 1978-81. The rape and murder of four U.S. churchwomen results in the suspension of U.S. military aid for one month.

The U.S. demands that the junta undertake land reform. Within 3 years, however, the reform program is halted by the oligarchy.

"The Soviet Union underlies all the unrest that is going on." --Ronald Reagan.

1984
U.S. spends $10 million to orchestrate elections in El Salvador-- something of a farce, since left-wing parties are under heavy repression, and the military has already declared that it will not answer to the elected president.

MS-13
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

Mara Salvatrucha (MS), also known as MS-13 originated in Los Angeles, set up in the 1980s by Salvadoran immigrants in the city's Pico-Unionneighborhood who immigrated to the United States after the Central American civil wars of the 1980s.[18]
Originally the gang's main purpose was to protect Salvadoran immigrants from other, more established gangs of Los Angeles, who were predominantly composed of Mexicans and African-Americans.[19]

Many Mara Salvatrucha gang members from the Los Angeles area have been deported after being arrested.[20] For example, Jose Abrego, a high-ranking member, was deported four times.[21] As a result of these deportations, members of MS-13 have recruited more members in their home countries.[22] The Los Angeles Times contends that deportation policies have contributed to the size and influence of the gang both in the United States and in Central America.[20] According to the 2009 National Gang Threat Assessment, "The gang is estimated to have 30,000 to 50,000 members and associate members worldwide, 8,000 to 10,000 of whom reside in the United States.[1]

[BADecker]

In addition to the above ^^^, the people in those countries are Roman Catholic, not Christian. Ask them. They'll tell you. Roman Catholic in Spanish speaking countries is different than it is in the States. They are Catholic first, and if they are Christian at all, it's at least second.

Venezuela (89%), Honduras (87%) and El Salvador (80%) are very Christian countries.  Where is CoinCube to point out how Christian values help societies and that without Christianity people would be killing each other in the streets?   Oh, wait, that is what they are doing in those three countries.

[mymenace]

Religion is unhealthy (War)
Religion is binding
Religion is enslavement
Religion is tool
Religion is based on some MAN talking to himself
Religion is based on omission
Religion is all linked



Faith is forever
Faith is healing
Faith is enduring
Faith is comforting
Faith in each other
Faith in humanity
Faith in GOD

[Astargath]

In addition to the above ^^^, the people in those countries are Roman Catholic, not Christian. Ask them. They'll tell you. Roman Catholic in Spanish speaking countries is different than it is in the States. They are Catholic first, and if they are Christian at all, it's at least second.

Venezuela (89%), Honduras (87%) and El Salvador (80%) are very Christian countries.  Where is CoinCube to point out how Christian values help societies and that without Christianity people would be killing each other in the streets?   Oh, wait, that is what they are doing in those three countries.

They all follow the bible, what are you saying lmao, you don't have an argument here, it's clear that a country with a lot of christians doesn't mean a good country, plenty of examples.

[CoinCube]

They all follow the bible, what are you saying lmao, you don't have an argument here, it's clear that a country with a lot of christians doesn't mean a good country, plenty of examples.

What people say is much less important then what people do. It is the reality that matters not the self identification.

Venezuela for example is 70-80% Catholic but only 10% of those people are highly committed to their faith as I highlighted immediately above.

Some 70% of the population of Sweden is a member of the Church of Sweden but only 15 percent of members of the Church of Sweden say they believe in Jesus which is pretty much the core belief of Christianity.
https://www.thelocal.se/20110615/34370

Are you saying Catholics don't believe in Jesus Christ? 

Many don't. The vast majority of people in the Church of Sweden clearly don't so why would you expect Catholicism to be different.  If you want to judge the strength of a religion in a country the best metric is probably regular weekly Church attendance. Once there is a cost even if it is only time reality manifest. Talk is cheap.

[CoinCube]

You obviously never lived in the Latin America.  People there invite their priests to bless their new cars, right there at the car dealerships.
They are extremely religious.  Everything is about God down there.  Venezuela might be an exception.

BTW, I was raised Catholic and can tell you that Jesus Christ is their main character.

Actually I have. I lived in Costa Rica for several months some years ago. I agree that it was a pretty religious place. However, I did not feel it was dramaticly more religious then the US. Latin America is a big place and far from uniform. Here is a chart on the religious commitment of various countries in Latin America. The Catholic commitment numbers are the ones to focus on as these countries are mostly Catholic. Costa Rica is pretty high which matches my experience.

I did not, however, feel that Costa Rica was dramatically more religious then the US and this observation too manifest itself in the US data where we see that the USA is a huge outlier compared other rich countries.


http://www.pewforum.org/2014/11/13/religion-in-latin-america/


http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/22/in-the-u-s-religious-commitment-is-high-and-the-gender-gap-is-wide/

[BADecker]

In addition to the above ^^^, the people in those countries are Roman Catholic, not Christian. Ask them. They'll tell you. Roman Catholic in Spanish speaking countries is different than it is in the States. They are Catholic first, and if they are Christian at all, it's at least second.

Venezuela (89%), Honduras (87%) and El Salvador (80%) are very Christian countries.  Where is CoinCube to point out how Christian values help societies and that without Christianity people would be killing each other in the streets?   Oh, wait, that is what they are doing in those three countries.

Are you saying Catholics don't believe in Jesus Christ?  

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Schisms_and_their_Councils.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

I'm having a hard time understanding how you and Astargath even get along in life. You quote me (above). Then you ask me what I am saying? Can't you even read? Do you have eyes that see, and ears that hear, but fail to comprehend? What good would it be for me to answer you?, since you can't even seem to be able to understand what I post, or maybe that I posted something, even though you quoted it. Is that what twisting yourself into attempting to believe that you are an atheist, when you know that you can never be one, does to you?

[Anya Doreen]

God doesn't simply answer prayers for a show. He does it for people who are in need. Certainly someone who loses both arms and legs is someone in need and plenty of people that actually believe in god have been praying for them and yet it never happened. I guess god doesn't want to show us his existence that way, it would be too easy and it would make us atheists believe in him, he obviously doesn't want that

How really silly are you trying to be? Consider the following.

Make a real arm or leg. You can't do it. Science can't do it. After painstaking research, science is only finally finding out how to adapt the nature of a few animals that CAN regrow limbs, in such a way that they might possibly apply it to people someday. In other words, as far as science goes, regrowing limbs is still way beyond their reach.

What does this mean? This means that there is a lot of technology in growing arms and legs. Science doesn't have a clue, science is completely blind, regarding how to grow a limb from scratch without using some of the processes that nature has provided. To repeat, science has absolutely no idea as to how to take a bunch of chemicals and turn them into an arm or leg.

The point? The point is that regrowing an arm or leg requires a large amount of capability, way beyond anything that we can even imagine at this time.

So, where did you get your arms and legs that you have already? Didn't you get them free? Certainly you didn't buy them, right? You might have exercised them or trained them in certain ways, but if you hadn't gotten them free, there would be no way you could get them at all!

Again, the point is that there is a tremendous amount of "stuff" in the nature of arms an legs that is miraculous regarding anything that we can do to make them.

Now consider the miracles that Jesus did as recorded in the Bible. Some of them were done quite easily by Him. Look at the transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17. While Jesus and 3 of His disciples were on the mount of transfiguration, a man with a demon (epilepsy?) possessed son came to the disciples He had left behind at the foot of the mountain for help. But they couldn't heal the boy. The disciples couldn't cast the demon out as they had done at other times, possibly because it was epilepsy. Look at what happens when Jesus comes into the situation, Matthew 17:16-21:

"... 16I brought him to your disciples, but they couldn’t heal him.”

17Jesus replied, “You unbelieving and perverted generation! How long must I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring him here to me!” 18Then Jesus rebuked the demon and it came out of him, and the boy was healed that very hour.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He told them, “Because of your lack of faith. I tell all of you with certainty, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you. 21But this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting.”

You won't ever get the things you desire along these lines of healing. Why not? No faith. The Bible section shown above shows why something as tremendous as regrowing arms and legs isn't being done in miraculous ways by more than a few people. They aren't praying and fasting enough in faith.

Again, why doesn't a small amount of prayer and fasting work to restore lost limbs? Because of the gigantic amount of "technology" within things like limbs. It is also why you lost any faith that you might have had years ago. You simply gave up when it didn't work out for you like you thought it should.

It's actually really funny how you are trying to justify it lol, you always give me a good laugh.

'' The point is that regrowing an arm or leg requires a large amount of capability, way beyond anything that we can even imagine at this time.'' Which is exactly the kind of miracle that would prove god's existence or at least make us wonder how the hell did that guy grow back a limb instantly?

''Again, why doesn't a small amount of prayer and fasting work to restore lost limbs? Because of the gigantic amount of "technology" within things like limbs.'' What is that even supposed to mean, that god answers prayers based on how much you pray and how difficult it is to do it? Well according to the bible it shouldn't be difficult at all, god is all powerful so growing a limb back is the same as healing a blind person, god doesn't find anything to be more difficult than anything, your argument is garbage.

I don't really think that God answers our prayers through the way we prayed or how much effort we put into it. God answers our prayer through looking into our hearts. Just try to look and study the Bible more. The stories there of people praying are asking for something, a miracle. But it wasn't meant for them alone. It's for their loved one or friends. A tremendous amount of love and sacrificed to be able to tell to Jesus that some of their family or friends need their healing. But most importantly after praying they believe. They believe that even just a word said by the Lord it will happen. That's how faith works. Being sure of what you haven't seen yet and being certain despite of those uncertainties in your life. Anyway, God may not be the Lord of miracle who showed those things before right now. But He's way are still the same. Now is the time of being wise on which faith you're going to believe in. Because time of His return is coming soon. So this is the period where we are being tested if we are being faithful to Him or if we really believe in Him despite of those unseen miracles He showed ancient of times ago.

[CoinCube]

Religious people live four YEARS longer than those who don’t believe in God, study reveals
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/science/religious-people-live-four-years-12704829.amp

People with religious affiliations live nearly four years longer than those with no religious ties, according to a new study.

Researchers from the Ohio State Universitylooked at the link between religion and length of life, by analysing over 1,000 obituaries.

Laura Wallace, who led the study, said: “Religious affiliation had nearly as strong an effect on longevity as gender does, which is a matter of years of life.”

The researchers found that part of the reason that religious people lived long was that they also volunteered and belonged to social organisations - both of which have been linked to living longer.

Ms Wallace said: “We found that volunteerism and involvement in social organisations only accounted for a little less than one year of the longevity boost that religious affiliation provided.

“There’s still a lot of the benefit of religious affiliation that this can't explain.”

The researchers suggested that the added benefit may be related to the rules and norms of many religions - such as the restriction of alcohol and drug use.

Professor Baldwin Way, co-author of the study, added: “Many religions promote stress-reducing practices that may improve health, such as gratitude, prayer or meditation.”

The researchers hope their findings will help with future studies exploring the effect of religion on health.

[BADecker]

The conclusion should have been that

- restriction of alcohol and drug use
- less stress
- volunteerism
- involvement in social organizations
- strong family relationships

all contribute to a longer life. 

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

[mymenace]

The conclusion should have been that

- restriction of alcohol and drug use
- less stress
- volunteerism
- involvement in social organizations
- strong family relationships

all contribute to a longer life.  

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

better to burn out, than fade away

[BADecker]

The conclusion should have been that

- restriction of alcohol and drug use
- less stress
- volunteerism
- involvement in social organizations
- strong family relationships

all contribute to a longer life.  

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

better to burn out, than fade away

Better to live healthy than burn out or fade away, even if religion is what does it.

[BADecker]

The conclusion should have been that

- restriction of alcohol and drug use
- less stress
- volunteerism
- involvement in social organizations
- strong family relationships

all contribute to a longer life. 

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

Common sense.

Common sense says to get religion.     

[Astargath]

The conclusion should have been that

- restriction of alcohol and drug use
- less stress
- volunteerism
- involvement in social organizations
- strong family relationships

all contribute to a longer life. 

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

Unfortunately that does not make religion true. If you need a lie to be healthy then you are simply weak.

[CoinCube]

Unfortunately that does not make religion true. If you need a lie to be healthy then you are simply weak.

Nor does it make religion false. If you reject something true and sacrifice your health in the process then you are simply foolish.

[BADecker]

And what makes people adhere to these things? The biggest reason by far is that they get religion, and then act according to what their religion tells them... to not harm their bodies. So, they stop doing harmful things, and start doing healthy things. Health and religion go hand in hand.

Unfortunately that does not make religion true. If you need a lie to be healthy then you are simply weak.

Religion is always true. After all, you are truly living your own personal religion. If it were not true, you wouldn't be living it. However, some parts of your personal religion are not correct. Mostly they deal with things like the existence of God, and the future.