Health and Religion

[CoinCube]

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

Without knowing it is impossible to believe. Belief at its deepest manifestation is knowing.

You have touched upon perhaps the deepest challenge facing modern man. In a world where as Nietzsche stated "God is dead" how does one know God?

I found it helpful to understand the full implications of Nietzsche's famous quote.

See: Nietzsche and Christianity

Humanity is no longer in its infancy where we can simply be told what to believe and more or less accept it blindly. We have instead entered a rebellious adolescence where we have the freedom to forge our own beliefs for better or for worse.

It was inevitable that the quest to seek truth born from monotheism and religion would turn on the dogma at its foundation, yet this attack on our cultural roots places us in a very tenuous position.

As pointed out in the video on Nietzsche and Christianity we probably only have three choices.

1) We can embrace one of the many parasitic and extremist ideologies available (See: Communism and Nazism for insight on where this path goes).

2) We can sink into existential nihilism which is accompanied by its own darkness.

3) We find a way to resurrect God and repair the foundation of our culture.

Personally I find the third choice by far the most compelling.

God is dead, long live God!

[Adeolawu]

Because meet people their faith unabashed

[Astargath]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

[Astargath]

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

Without knowing it is impossible to believe. Belief at its deepest manifestation is knowing.

You have touched upon perhaps the deepest challenge facing modern man. In a world where as Nietzsche stated "God is dead" how does one know God?

I found it helpful to understand the full implications of Nietzsche's famous quote.

See: Nietzsche and Christianity

Humanity is no longer in its infancy where we can simply be told what to believe and more or less accept it blindly. We have instead entered a rebellious adolescence where we have the freedom to forge our own beliefs for better or for worse.

It was inevitable that the quest to seek truth born from monotheism and religion would turn on the dogma at its foundation, yet this attack on our cultural roots places us in a very tenuous position.

As pointed out in the video on Nietzsche and Christianity we probably only have three choices.

1) We can embrace one of the many parasitic and extremist ideologies available (See: Communism and Nazism for insight on where this path goes).

2) We can sink into existential nihilism which is accompanied by its own darkness.

3) We find a way to resurrect God and repair the foundation of our culture.

Personally I find the third choice by far the most compelling.

God is dead, long live God!

But what If I'm looking for the truth rather than something that would make me feel good? Choice number 3 has also a few thousand choices, which god should I chose? Does anyone pick his God based on research or rather indoctrination and luck? That is the problem with religion and gods. Sure it's better to believe in god than believing everything is pointless and nothing matters. I was a nihilist for some time but then I realized that nihilism is also a form of ''religion'' because the only truth is that we simply don't know. We don't know if something happens after death or what the universe really is or why we are here, that's my point of view now and many times I look at the stars and I wonder too if there is something up there but I can't just blindly believe in things.

[CoinCube]

But what If I'm looking for the truth rather than something that would make me feel good? Choice number 3 has also a few thousand choices, which god should I chose? Does anyone pick his God based on research or rather indoctrination and luck? That is the problem with religion and gods. Sure it's better to believe in god than believing everything is pointless and nothing matters. I was a nihilist for some time but then I realized that nihilism is also a form of ''religion'' because the only truth is that we simply don't know. We don't know if something happens after death or what the universe really is or why we are here, that's my point of view now and many times I look at the stars and I wonder too if there is something up there but I can't just blindly believe in things.

It sounds to me like you are doing exactly what you should be doing which is searching for truth.

In the very recent past we were all enveloped from childhood in an unquestioned and unchallenged truth structure. This is no longer possible.

The enlightenment and the rise of reason has dramatically increased the burden on man with regards to our beliefs. Now we are forced to deeply explore our faith down its foundational first principles or failing that risk being cast adrift and picked up by whatever foolish ideology or branch of nihilism we stumble across.

Blindly believing in things is not the goal or even desirable. What we need is a fully integrated system of belief and representation.  

Recently I have been watching the Biblical series by Jordan Peterson.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg30641980#msg30641980

He approaches the topic in a very different manner then I did in our back and forth a few months back. It makes for very interesting material and may be helpful.

[Astargath]

But what If I'm looking for the truth rather than something that would make me feel good? Choice number 3 has also a few thousand choices, which god should I chose? Does anyone pick his God based on research or rather indoctrination and luck? That is the problem with religion and gods. Sure it's better to believe in god than believing everything is pointless and nothing matters. I was a nihilist for some time but then I realized that nihilism is also a form of ''religion'' because the only truth is that we simply don't know. We don't know if something happens after death or what the universe really is or why we are here, that's my point of view now and many times I look at the stars and I wonder too if there is something up there but I can't just blindly believe in things.

It sounds to me like you are doing exactly what you should be doing which is searching for truth.

In the very recent past we were all enveloped from childhood in an unquestioned and unchallenged truth structure. This is no longer possible.

The enlightenment and the rise of reason has dramatically increased the burden on man with regards to our beliefs. Now we are forced to deeply explore our faith down its foundational first principles or failing that risk being cast adrift and picked up by whatever foolish ideology or branch of nihilism we stumble across.

Blindly believing in things is not the goal or even desirable. What we need is a fully integrated system of belief and representation.  

Recently I have been watching the Biblical series by Jordan Peterson.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg30641980#msg30641980

He approaches the topic in a very different manner then I did in our back and forth a few months back. It makes for very interesting material and may be helpful.

I agree, Jordan Peterson is a very smart man and his approach is definitely different than 99.9% of believers on why they believe in what they believe. For example, he does ''believe'' in evolution unlike your friend badecker and he is definitely a hardcore christian, if only every religious person was like him the world would be a better place. However asserting that morality comes from an outside source without proof of any outside source or even that it is an external source and not an internal source without any proof of either is ludicrous. I will point out that it was society and not religion or your god that determined that slavery is immoral. This would indicate that morals are a construct of society and not a greater being that can't be proven.

[Kamidzy7]

There are different religions and each has its own religion. But if you're a religious person, then of course you have to follow the rules . To be a worthy person, to lead a healthy lifestyle, not to commit rash acts. To love and respect people.

[shahadut_s232]

There are many religions in our world.Every religions has many rules anf every people has must be follows their religions.and health  is very important for us.Health is the point on all happiness and success.so we should try to be healthy and must be follows our religions rules.

[CoinCube]

I agree, Jordan Peterson is a very smart man and his approach is definitely different than 99.9% of believers on why they believe in what they believe. For example, he does ''believe'' in evolution unlike your friend badecker and he is definitely a hardcore christian, if only every religious person was like him the world would be a better place. However asserting that morality comes from an outside source without proof of any outside source or even that it is an external source and not an internal source without any proof of either is ludicrous. I will point out that it was society and not religion or your god that determined that slavery is immoral. This would indicate that morals are a construct of society and not a greater being that can't be proven.

It is important to seperate the message from the messenger. All messengers are potentially subject to error but if we can reconstruct the same ultimate message from a multitude of messengers regardless of their differences and starting positions and then we must carefully consider the message for it has proven itself robust.

Let's briefly look at some of the various messengers we have discussed in this thread.

Bruce Charlton approached religion through a metaphysical framework highlighting that all knowledge is ultimately reducible to basic and unproven axioms.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg22344436#msg22344436

Perry Marshall examined the axiom of God and showed us that it is not falsifiable.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852

Dennis Prager explained how the axiom of God leads directly to the reality of freedom.
https://www.prageru.com/videos/i-am-lord-your-god

Moshe Chaim Luzzatto shows how starting from the axiom of God one can understand free-will, the existence of evil, and why bad things sometimes happen to good people.
http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

Jordan Peterson approaches the Bible from an perspective of evolutionary psychology and finds psychological truths.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w

What all of these vastly diverse approaches have in common is that they converge on is a single basic message.

God = True

This is the critical axiom the foundation that ultimately supported the rise of western civilization and the enlightenment.

If we can show that morality follows from acceptance of the axiom is that morality coming from an external or internal source? The very question is almost irrelevant answerable in either the affirmative, the negative or perhaps both.

[BADecker]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

You don't have to believe in the Bible. You know it's a book, right?

Why do you have to believe in science? Because it wasn't you who did the scientific experiments (except that you might have done one or two). Other than that, you have to believe the scientists who did the experiments, or you have to believe the people who have written about the experiments the scientists did.

In other words, all of science is a religion for all people... except for the few scientific experiments anybody might have done for himself.

For example. You might have personally stuck a couple of electrodes into water, and found that you could split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since you did it personally, there is a piece of science that you know, rather than having to take it on faith.

But are you one of the scientists who runs nuclear power plants? If you aren't, you have to believe what the scientists tell you, or what the some general "practitioner" scientists have written down in the books. What if they are lying? What if they are mistaken? Consider Fukushima and Chernobyl. Odds are that they aren't lying. But you don't know they aren't mistaken or lying. Religion.

Either you believe science and religion, or you don't, or you only believe one of them. But outside of a few small science experiments, you don't know that science is factual. Same with religion. There are those who tell you some factual experience about religion that they had, but they don't know it all, and you have to make the choice whether or not to believe them.

As far as you go, both religion and science are religion for you. Go to the doctor and get cured by religion. That's all it is for you, because you don't know for a fact that what they say is the truth. Unless you, yourself, are a very experienced doctor, you totally have to take it on faith... just like you have to take Bible scholars on faith if you want to believe them. You just believe and hope, same as any formal religion.

[Astargath]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

You don't have to believe in the Bible. You know it's a book, right?

Why do you have to believe in science? Because it wasn't you who did the scientific experiments (except that you might have done one or two). Other than that, you have to believe the scientists who did the experiments, or you have to believe the people who have written about the experiments the scientists did.

In other words, all of science is a religion for all people... except for the few scientific experiments anybody might have done for himself.

For example. You might have personally stuck a couple of electrodes into water, and found that you could split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since you did it personally, there is a piece of science that you know, rather than having to take it on faith.

But are you one of the scientists who runs nuclear power plants? If you aren't, you have to believe what the scientists tell you, or what the some general "practitioner" scientists have written down in the books. What if they are lying? What if they are mistaken? Consider Fukushima and Chernobyl. Odds are that they aren't lying. But you don't know they aren't mistaken or lying. Religion.

Either you believe science and religion, or you don't, or you only believe one of them. But outside of a few small science experiments, you don't know that science is factual. Same with religion. There are those who tell you some factual experience about religion that they had, but they don't know it all, and you have to make the choice whether or not to believe them.

As far as you go, both religion and science are religion for you. Go to the doctor and get cured by religion. That's all it is for you, because you don't know for a fact that what they say is the truth. Unless you, yourself, are a very experienced doctor, you totally have to take it on faith... just like you have to take Bible scholars on faith if you want to believe them. You just believe and hope, same as any formal religion.

However, all the experiments and tests are written somewhere and I can also study the subject and perform the experiments myself, you don't have that possibility with religion because there are no experiments, no tests, no math, even If I wanted to test them by myself I couldn't because there are none. Sure you have to trust science in some things unless you want to study about everything and perform tests yourself but at least you have the possibility to actually do the experiments or at least understand them, again, you don't have that in religion, you are supposed to believe in it blindly because badecker says so and we can't understand god so we just have to follow what he says because he says so. There is no logic there. Science works, religion doesn't.

[BADecker]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

You don't have to believe in the Bible. You know it's a book, right?

Why do you have to believe in science? Because it wasn't you who did the scientific experiments (except that you might have done one or two). Other than that, you have to believe the scientists who did the experiments, or you have to believe the people who have written about the experiments the scientists did.

In other words, all of science is a religion for all people... except for the few scientific experiments anybody might have done for himself.

For example. You might have personally stuck a couple of electrodes into water, and found that you could split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since you did it personally, there is a piece of science that you know, rather than having to take it on faith.

But are you one of the scientists who runs nuclear power plants? If you aren't, you have to believe what the scientists tell you, or what the some general "practitioner" scientists have written down in the books. What if they are lying? What if they are mistaken? Consider Fukushima and Chernobyl. Odds are that they aren't lying. But you don't know they aren't mistaken or lying. Religion.

Either you believe science and religion, or you don't, or you only believe one of them. But outside of a few small science experiments, you don't know that science is factual. Same with religion. There are those who tell you some factual experience about religion that they had, but they don't know it all, and you have to make the choice whether or not to believe them.

As far as you go, both religion and science are religion for you. Go to the doctor and get cured by religion. That's all it is for you, because you don't know for a fact that what they say is the truth. Unless you, yourself, are a very experienced doctor, you totally have to take it on faith... just like you have to take Bible scholars on faith if you want to believe them. You just believe and hope, same as any formal religion.

However, all the experiments and tests are written somewhere and I can also study the subject and perform the experiments myself, you don't have that possibility with religion because there are no experiments, no tests, no math, even If I wanted to test them by myself I couldn't because there are none. Sure you have to trust science in some things unless you want to study about everything and perform tests yourself but at least you have the possibility to actually do the experiments or at least understand them, again, you don't have that in religion, you are supposed to believe in it blindly because badecker says so and we can't understand god so we just have to follow what he says because he says so. There is no logic there. Science works, religion doesn't.

But you didn't read the experiments. You didn't do the experiments. Ever heard of the term "fake news?"

Some of the news has been fake for over a hundred years. But since it wasn't known to be fake way back then, it has been incorporated into the public psyche, and we accept it as truth... even though we don't know.

A simple example is the fake news of flat earth. Look at how many hundreds of years people believed it to be true. And (as you well know) there are those who keep on believing it today. They even have a lot of near-science built up to almost-prove that FE is real. And many of those FE people base their whole idea around religion, formally.

So, go out and do all the scientific the experiments so that you know your science isn't religion. But if you only do one or two, its religion for you. And you know what that means, don't you? When you get good (or bad) health by following medical advice, you have, Health and Religion.

[Pochay]

Health is the condition of the body of one person weather it is good or bad, in physical or mental condition.
Many people now are consious with their body when it comes to health condition, now a days many are suffering from stroke, heart attack, diabetis and cancer.
Religion ii is the belief or faith in God that God is the creator of heaven and Earth.

[BADecker]

Health is the condition of the body of one person weather it is good or bad, in physical or mental condition.
Many people now are consious with their body when it comes to health condition, now a days many are suffering from stroke, heart attack, diabetis and cancer.
Religion ii is the belief or faith in God that God is the creator of heaven and Earth.

Religion is the belief that medicine will work. When it doesn't, the belief steps in and makes it work... in as much as 33% of the cases, anyway. It's called placebo effect.

Health is like religion... Health and religion.

[Astargath]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

You don't have to believe in the Bible. You know it's a book, right?

Why do you have to believe in science? Because it wasn't you who did the scientific experiments (except that you might have done one or two). Other than that, you have to believe the scientists who did the experiments, or you have to believe the people who have written about the experiments the scientists did.

In other words, all of science is a religion for all people... except for the few scientific experiments anybody might have done for himself.

For example. You might have personally stuck a couple of electrodes into water, and found that you could split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since you did it personally, there is a piece of science that you know, rather than having to take it on faith.

But are you one of the scientists who runs nuclear power plants? If you aren't, you have to believe what the scientists tell you, or what the some general "practitioner" scientists have written down in the books. What if they are lying? What if they are mistaken? Consider Fukushima and Chernobyl. Odds are that they aren't lying. But you don't know they aren't mistaken or lying. Religion.

Either you believe science and religion, or you don't, or you only believe one of them. But outside of a few small science experiments, you don't know that science is factual. Same with religion. There are those who tell you some factual experience about religion that they had, but they don't know it all, and you have to make the choice whether or not to believe them.

As far as you go, both religion and science are religion for you. Go to the doctor and get cured by religion. That's all it is for you, because you don't know for a fact that what they say is the truth. Unless you, yourself, are a very experienced doctor, you totally have to take it on faith... just like you have to take Bible scholars on faith if you want to believe them. You just believe and hope, same as any formal religion.

However, all the experiments and tests are written somewhere and I can also study the subject and perform the experiments myself, you don't have that possibility with religion because there are no experiments, no tests, no math, even If I wanted to test them by myself I couldn't because there are none. Sure you have to trust science in some things unless you want to study about everything and perform tests yourself but at least you have the possibility to actually do the experiments or at least understand them, again, you don't have that in religion, you are supposed to believe in it blindly because badecker says so and we can't understand god so we just have to follow what he says because he says so. There is no logic there. Science works, religion doesn't.

But you didn't read the experiments. You didn't do the experiments. Ever heard of the term "fake news?"

Some of the news has been fake for over a hundred years. But since it wasn't known to be fake way back then, it has been incorporated into the public psyche, and we accept it as truth... even though we don't know.

A simple example is the fake news of flat earth. Look at how many hundreds of years people believed it to be true. And (as you well know) there are those who keep on believing it today. They even have a lot of near-science built up to almost-prove that FE is real. And many of those FE people base their whole idea around religion, formally.

So, go out and do all the scientific the experiments so that you know your science isn't religion. But if you only do one or two, its religion for you. And you know what that means, don't you? When you get good (or bad) health by following medical advice, you have, Health and Religion.

But you are ignoring my point. Your religion doesn't have any experiments or tests, even if someone wanted to see if they were right they wouldn't be able to. I obviously cannot study and perform tests on everything I do or use. I don't need to perform a scientific experiment to see that my PC is working or that planes fly. Science works, I have ''faith'' in science because it has proven to me that it works time after time just like when you have faith in your wife that she wont cheat on you because she has proven to be loyal. This doesn't mean it wont happen just like science, it could be wrong but there is really no reason to think it is. When it comes to health I'm sure you go to a doctor or a hospital, don't you? Did you study medicine? Do you need to, to trust doctors? Why do you trust doctors? Because you know they have studied medicine and you know science works.

This is the essence of science vs religion.

[Katy Brown]

 God never, who did not help. The religion in addition to troubles I don't see anything. Any religion is harmful.

[Crazygreek]

God never, who did not help. The religion in addition to troubles I don't see anything. Any religion is harmful.

People harming their heads when starting following any religion at my opinion and it's very sad. 2018 already came but religion still necessary for people.

[CoinCube]

However, all the experiments and tests are written somewhere and I can also study the subject and perform the experiments myself, you don't have that possibility with religion because there are no experiments, no tests, no math, even If I wanted to test them by myself I couldn't because there are none. Sure you have to trust science in some things unless you want to study about everything and perform tests yourself but at least you have the possibility to actually do the experiments or at least understand them, again, you don't have that in religion, you are supposed to believe in it blindly because badecker says so and we can't understand god so we just have to follow what he says because he says so. There is no logic there. Science works, religion doesn't.

Even if you repeat a science experiment yourself the very act of repeating an experiment means you have accepted the apriori assumptions of science.

Metaphysical Foundation of Science:
 
✧ The external world is real and knowable.
✧ Nature itself is not divine. It is an object worthy of study, not worship.
✧ The universe is orderly. There is uniformity in nature that allows us to observe past phenomena and to understand and predict future occurrences.
✧ Our minds and senses are capable of accurately observing and understanding the world.

These assumed truths are so deeply ingrained in us now we have difficulty even recognizing them as assumptions but they are necessary for science to exist.

If you don't believe the assumptions science becomes impossible for you. The progress and maintenance of scientific achievement requires that these assumptions be accepted and propagated at least by an educated elite.

The same situation applies to the apriori Truth of God which rests at the foundation of western culture. Undermine the assumption and the whole society starts to wobble.

This is what Nietzsche foresaw when he announced "God is dead" in 1882. Nietzsche predicted drastic consequences as a result. He predicted millions would die in the 20th century in wars of extremist ideologies. Peterson describes these ideologies as parasites that act on a damaged religious substructure.

Nietzsche also predicted that it would not be until the 21st century that we would be forced to acknowledge the crisis of nihilism. These predictions given in 1882 are an intellectual tour de force.

Believing blindly without contemplation still works for some but that blanket of protection is gradually being pulled away. Going forward it will increasingly be necessary to fully define oneself down to your core metaphysical truths. Unless you can look into the abyss of nihilism and reject it with certainty the abyss will sooner or later pull you in.

[BADecker]

Religion is poison. They are reasoned by books that have no evidence or witness. 

Check Dictionary .com at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t. Number 6 reads: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice."

This means that you simply have a religion of non-religion.

[BADecker]

There are at least 2 places in the Bible (one in Isaiah) that tell us that in the next life we will never remember any of this. It will never come to mind.

So, it is not that you don't believe in God. Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.

Don't throw away eternity for yourself. Having the pleasure of some deep anger against God in this life (though I don't see where there is pleasure in anger), is not worth losing your salvation for eternity.

Rather, humble yourself, and ask God to comfort you and bring peace to your mind and soul.

''Rather, it is that you are angry with Him for not judging things according to the way you think.'' Actually as you can clearly see from my example above, I'm not angry or happy, it simply makes no sense and it's not fair.

What makes it unfair is the unfairness of mankind toward God. God gave His all in Jesus death on the cross. He did it to save mankind. But here you are, not only accepting the imperfection of being sinful in the first place, but extending your imperfection to the rejecting of the great sacrifice Jesus did to save you. You ain't fair. Certainly not to God.

God sacrificed himself to himself to forgive us. Another nonsense from the bible right there. It makes absolutely no sense and we are not even saved, we are still here, aren't we? Why did an omniscient and all powerful god need to sacrifice his ''son'' to forgive humanity? Why not just forgive us? What is there to forgive anyways, he already knew everything that would happen.

Perfection requires justice. God couldn't just forgive without destroying His Own perfection. The sacrifice of Jesus included the punishment for mankind that would maintain the perfection of God.

The perfection of mankind needed to be maintained, because God had judged mankind so extremely good at the time of the creation, that God placed His spirit within mankind. In order to maintain the perfection of His own judgment about mankind, He needed to maintain the perfection of mankind. The perfection having been maintained in the sacrifice of Jesus, mankind is now free to be his own agent... to accept God's perfection for himself, or to reject it.

Since God is love, He truly wishes mankind to accept the perfection of Godness or God-likeness. And since God is love and just, He realizes that He must not coerce any man in the judgment that each person makes.

There is no way to adequately and properly explain the things that are involved in the salvation of man. Suffice it to say that God is holding the salvation choice open for each person as long as that person lives. And since Jesus was God as well as man, mankind is being brought into God-likeness. Maintaining health is simply man using the strength of God that God has placed in each and every one of us.

What the fuck? Imagine I'm God and I know everything that's going to happen. It makes no sense for me to get mad at people I created for things they are going to do if I knew about it beforehand. There is no need to forgive anyone because I already know what's going to happen. If I didn't want that to happen then I wouldn't have created it, no?

What you say is a major example of one of the major points. Nobody can imagine how God thinks.

Since you don't know everything that's going to happen like God does, and since you don't know how things all work together, why would you even think your logic about creating or not creating is valid?

Since you know that your logic is not strong enough to be valid, you are simply hoping it might be valid, and you have faith that it is valid. This is exactly what religious people do in their religions.

Keep on worshiping yourself in your religious logic if you want. But when the chips are so far down that you can't find a way out, remember God. He will accept you if you come to Him sincerely. Do it now, unless you have locked yourself so deeply into God unbelief that you have no chance of turning to Him.

So am I supposed to just believe in something that I will never understand? Even if I knew god existed how would I ever know that what he is doing is the right thing? Why would anyone worship god if we can't even understand if he is good or not? Sure the bible says he is but how would we ever know?

What are you even yammering about? You believe in science, don't you? You believe in evolution, don't you? But the small amount of either one of them that you know - science or evolution - shows that you believe in things that you don't really know about very much.

How do you know about believing in science or evolution? Other people tell you about them. Same with the Bible writings. This means that you are very religions.

Go ahead and tell me that you know everything about science or evolution. I always like a good laugh.

You don't have to ''believe in science''. You know the earth is round, don't you? You make fun of notbatman because you know he is not right. We have experiments, photographic evidence, videos, tests, math, that proves the earth is not flat. That's science. Religion on the other hand doesn't have that, there is no test or photographic evidence, videos or math to prove it and yet you ask me to believe in your specific god and when I question his actions you simply tell me I don't understand. Why would anyone believe in that?

https://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

You don't have to believe in the Bible. You know it's a book, right?

Why do you have to believe in science? Because it wasn't you who did the scientific experiments (except that you might have done one or two). Other than that, you have to believe the scientists who did the experiments, or you have to believe the people who have written about the experiments the scientists did.

In other words, all of science is a religion for all people... except for the few scientific experiments anybody might have done for himself.

For example. You might have personally stuck a couple of electrodes into water, and found that you could split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since you did it personally, there is a piece of science that you know, rather than having to take it on faith.

But are you one of the scientists who runs nuclear power plants? If you aren't, you have to believe what the scientists tell you, or what the some general "practitioner" scientists have written down in the books. What if they are lying? What if they are mistaken? Consider Fukushima and Chernobyl. Odds are that they aren't lying. But you don't know they aren't mistaken or lying. Religion.

Either you believe science and religion, or you don't, or you only believe one of them. But outside of a few small science experiments, you don't know that science is factual. Same with religion. There are those who tell you some factual experience about religion that they had, but they don't know it all, and you have to make the choice whether or not to believe them.

As far as you go, both religion and science are religion for you. Go to the doctor and get cured by religion. That's all it is for you, because you don't know for a fact that what they say is the truth. Unless you, yourself, are a very experienced doctor, you totally have to take it on faith... just like you have to take Bible scholars on faith if you want to believe them. You just believe and hope, same as any formal religion.

However, all the experiments and tests are written somewhere and I can also study the subject and perform the experiments myself, you don't have that possibility with religion because there are no experiments, no tests, no math, even If I wanted to test them by myself I couldn't because there are none. Sure you have to trust science in some things unless you want to study about everything and perform tests yourself but at least you have the possibility to actually do the experiments or at least understand them, again, you don't have that in religion, you are supposed to believe in it blindly because badecker says so and we can't understand god so we just have to follow what he says because he says so. There is no logic there. Science works, religion doesn't.

But you didn't read the experiments. You didn't do the experiments. Ever heard of the term "fake news?"

Some of the news has been fake for over a hundred years. But since it wasn't known to be fake way back then, it has been incorporated into the public psyche, and we accept it as truth... even though we don't know.

A simple example is the fake news of flat earth. Look at how many hundreds of years people believed it to be true. And (as you well know) there are those who keep on believing it today. They even have a lot of near-science built up to almost-prove that FE is real. And many of those FE people base their whole idea around religion, formally.

So, go out and do all the scientific the experiments so that you know your science isn't religion. But if you only do one or two, its religion for you. And you know what that means, don't you? When you get good (or bad) health by following medical advice, you have, Health and Religion.

But you are ignoring my point. Your religion doesn't have any experiments or tests, even if someone wanted to see if they were right they wouldn't be able to. I obviously cannot study and perform tests on everything I do or use. I don't need to perform a scientific experiment to see that my PC is working or that planes fly. Science works, I have ''faith'' in science because it has proven to me that it works time after time just like when you have faith in your wife that she wont cheat on you because she has proven to be loyal. This doesn't mean it wont happen just like science, it could be wrong but there is really no reason to think it is. When it comes to health I'm sure you go to a doctor or a hospital, don't you? Did you study medicine? Do you need to, to trust doctors? Why do you trust doctors? Because you know they have studied medicine and you know science works.

This is the essence of science vs religion.

Well, bring your point back on topic, and you will see that health and religion have a lot to do with each other. Coincube and I have been showing you this over and over, and some of it has to do with science.

Your science is only your personal religion, and doesn't match general science.