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Author Topic: Health and Religion  (Read 191104 times)
alisha123
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April 17, 2018, 12:42:57 PM
 #2021

Religion is not about hate, so the people that hate the other ones are not so religious that they think they are! Also, the IQ has nothing to do with religion. I strongly believe that IQ has nothing to do with religion, just because are two things so different. No study cand explain the presence of God (The belief is in you) and no study can tell you how smart you are so.. this is my point of view! Wink
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April 17, 2018, 09:57:53 PM
 #2022

Different religion and different traditions making your health better or harm you. At my opinion first of all everyone should think about consiquences before doing religion stuff.

While this is true, according to the complete definition of religion, your idea is a religion if you follow it wholeheartedly.

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April 18, 2018, 02:37:54 AM
 #2023


See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

After several pages of back and forth we are getting into some very deep questions. With that said I will share my incomplete and partial thoughts.

I agree with you in part on point #3. An omnipotent being would certainly not need worship of any kind. The need to the degree it exists would go entirely in the other direction.

I do not claim know the answer to #2 and #4. I think they logically follow from the concept of heaven but any details are certainly far beyond my understanding. The answer may have something to do with willingly surrendering ones free will to God what Rabbi Moishe described above as freedom from choice. The answer may also have something to to with genuinely seeking redemption, salvation, and forgiveness followed by some form of divine purification. There are also less optimistic possibilities. I do not know.

No one does only good all of their life or at least no one I have ever met. What we have instead is varying degrees of corruption. The worst of us can be thought of as pig like wallowing gleefully and deliberately into deep cesspools their bodies and faces covered with layer upon layer of filth caked into solid sheets covering even their eyes.

The very best of us can be thought of as men walking through such a mud pit trying desperately to wipe the splashing mud out of their eyes shaking it off whenever possible and always looking for the firmer ground. Striving for cleanliness but objectively still filthy.

What has to change before either of these two could be given free access to a pristine home?

It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true. Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.

If I set up a shower outside of my home which of the two men could I allow free access inside? One, both, or none?

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April 18, 2018, 07:50:50 AM
 #2024

The belief system of a community greatly affects the society's overall aspects of it's life. The more strongly a belief system is depend upon, the stronger the effects of it. The stricter one follows the doctrine of a belief system then the more it affects it. For example, a Muslim or Jewish community will definitely have a lower rate of swine related sickness than others. Of course these belief system although the same will have an influence with the culture of the community.

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April 18, 2018, 12:22:09 PM
 #2025

The work of science, religion is not. When did the prayer or god heal the amputee or the blind these days? Do religious people go to the hospital when they are sick or do they just pray to God? Where are all the progress or discoveries based on the Bible? Why the Bible is really useless and does not help in any progress. Drugs on the other hand really work and so do all the other sciences. Your opinion is that evolution is a hoax, but fortunately your opinion does not mean whether the work is successful or not and the work of evolution, the Bible does not.
Astargath
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April 18, 2018, 01:55:49 PM
 #2026


See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

After several pages of back and forth we are getting into some very deep questions. With that said I will share my incomplete and partial thoughts.

I agree with you in part on point #3. An omnipotent being would certainly not need worship of any kind. The need to the degree it exists would go entirely in the other direction.

I do not claim know the answer to #2 and #4. I think they logically follow from the concept of heaven but any details are certainly far beyond my understanding. The answer may have something to do with willingly surrendering ones free will to God what Rabbi Moishe described above as freedom from choice. The answer may also have something to to with genuinely seeking redemption, salvation, and forgiveness followed by some form of divine purification. There are also less optimistic possibilities. I do not know.

No one does only good all of their life or at least no one I have ever met. What we have instead is varying degrees of corruption. The worst of us can be thought of as pig like wallowing gleefully and deliberately into deep cesspools their bodies and faces covered with layer upon layer of filth caked into solid sheets covering even their eyes.

The very best of us can be thought of as men walking through such a mud pit trying desperately to wipe the splashing mud out of their eyes shaking it off whenever possible and always looking for the firmer ground. Striving for cleanliness but objectively still filthy.

What has to change before either of these two could be given free access to a pristine home?

It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true. Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.

If I set up a shower outside of my home which of the two men could I allow free access inside? One, both, or none?

''Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.'' Atheists and non believers seem to care more about the journey than religious people who accept everything said in the bible without any question. ''It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true.'' I don't really see why not. If I want to convince my daughter that I'm alive and I exist, isn't the best way to just do it? Why would god put more weight on blind faith instead of reason, the answer is simple, he doesn't, religions and god are a fraud, that's why I can come up with 20 different questions that you can't answer, the bible can't answer and yet I'm supposed to somehow just trust god, right? Nah.

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April 18, 2018, 03:20:55 PM
 #2027

The work of science, religion is not. When did the prayer or god heal the amputee or the blind these days? Do religious people go to the hospital when they are sick or do they just pray to God? Where are all the progress or discoveries based on the Bible? Why the Bible is really useless and does not help in any progress. Drugs on the other hand really work and so do all the other sciences. Your opinion is that evolution is a hoax, but fortunately your opinion does not mean whether the work is successful or not and the work of evolution, the Bible does not.

All healings in every form are God directed. God does not desire problems and pain for people. But He allows people to do many things against themselves, because He allows freedom. That's part of the reason medical science doesn't work most of the time.

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BADecker
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April 18, 2018, 03:27:29 PM
 #2028


See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

After several pages of back and forth we are getting into some very deep questions. With that said I will share my incomplete and partial thoughts.

I agree with you in part on point #3. An omnipotent being would certainly not need worship of any kind. The need to the degree it exists would go entirely in the other direction.

I do not claim know the answer to #2 and #4. I think they logically follow from the concept of heaven but any details are certainly far beyond my understanding. The answer may have something to do with willingly surrendering ones free will to God what Rabbi Moishe described above as freedom from choice. The answer may also have something to to with genuinely seeking redemption, salvation, and forgiveness followed by some form of divine purification. There are also less optimistic possibilities. I do not know.

No one does only good all of their life or at least no one I have ever met. What we have instead is varying degrees of corruption. The worst of us can be thought of as pig like wallowing gleefully and deliberately into deep cesspools their bodies and faces covered with layer upon layer of filth caked into solid sheets covering even their eyes.

The very best of us can be thought of as men walking through such a mud pit trying desperately to wipe the splashing mud out of their eyes shaking it off whenever possible and always looking for the firmer ground. Striving for cleanliness but objectively still filthy.

What has to change before either of these two could be given free access to a pristine home?

It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true. Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.

If I set up a shower outside of my home which of the two men could I allow free access inside? One, both, or none?

''Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.'' Atheists and non believers seem to care more about the journey than religious people who accept everything said in the bible without any question. ''It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true.'' I don't really see why not. If I want to convince my daughter that I'm alive and I exist, isn't the best way to just do it? Why would god put more weight on blind faith instead of reason, the answer is simple, he doesn't, religions and god are a fraud, that's why I can come up with 20 different questions that you can't answer, the bible can't answer and yet I'm supposed to somehow just trust god, right? Nah.

God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Don't be afraid to donate Bitcoin >>> 1JDJotyxZLFF8akGCxHeqMkD4YrrTmEAwz !
Astargath
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April 18, 2018, 06:55:07 PM
 #2029


See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

After several pages of back and forth we are getting into some very deep questions. With that said I will share my incomplete and partial thoughts.

I agree with you in part on point #3. An omnipotent being would certainly not need worship of any kind. The need to the degree it exists would go entirely in the other direction.

I do not claim know the answer to #2 and #4. I think they logically follow from the concept of heaven but any details are certainly far beyond my understanding. The answer may have something to do with willingly surrendering ones free will to God what Rabbi Moishe described above as freedom from choice. The answer may also have something to to with genuinely seeking redemption, salvation, and forgiveness followed by some form of divine purification. There are also less optimistic possibilities. I do not know.

No one does only good all of their life or at least no one I have ever met. What we have instead is varying degrees of corruption. The worst of us can be thought of as pig like wallowing gleefully and deliberately into deep cesspools their bodies and faces covered with layer upon layer of filth caked into solid sheets covering even their eyes.

The very best of us can be thought of as men walking through such a mud pit trying desperately to wipe the splashing mud out of their eyes shaking it off whenever possible and always looking for the firmer ground. Striving for cleanliness but objectively still filthy.

What has to change before either of these two could be given free access to a pristine home?

It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true. Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.

If I set up a shower outside of my home which of the two men could I allow free access inside? One, both, or none?

''Maybe the most important part of the process is the journey towards the answer.'' Atheists and non believers seem to care more about the journey than religious people who accept everything said in the bible without any question. ''It may appears that it would be better if the answer was simply provided for us in clear irrefutable and irresistible terms but that may not be true.'' I don't really see why not. If I want to convince my daughter that I'm alive and I exist, isn't the best way to just do it? Why would god put more weight on blind faith instead of reason, the answer is simple, he doesn't, religions and god are a fraud, that's why I can come up with 20 different questions that you can't answer, the bible can't answer and yet I'm supposed to somehow just trust god, right? Nah.

God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

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April 19, 2018, 01:58:41 AM
Merited by CoinCube (5)
 #2030


God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing that He exists. We know that He exists simply by observing nature, or when we attempt to set ourselves up as gods by trying to believe that God doesn't exist. Believing in God is believing in the things that He tells us in the Bible. Such faith is using reason, basing faith on Bible and God knowledge. Such is reasonable way more than atheism, which tries to force belief in atheism on the so-called atheist while the so-called atheist knows for a fact that God might exist.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The most important faith in this life is saving faith... Jesus salvation faith. It is found through the Bible. Then in Heaven, faith will be increased because we will see some of the results of our faith, and we will understand more of the Word of God, making our faith in the rest of it grow.

The atheists, like everyone else, don't know for a fact what is going to happen in the next second. We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Cool

Don't be afraid to donate Bitcoin >>> 1JDJotyxZLFF8akGCxHeqMkD4YrrTmEAwz !
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April 19, 2018, 11:11:46 AM
 #2031

It may be true that religion makes people happy because it gives you an alternative to death, however, it is an illusion, you will eventually die and there will be no heaven, no after life, no purpose, no meaning only emptiness, that is life, no that is special, we are really just something going and no purpose. Knowing this fact would be of no use to the happiness of anybody but apart from feeling it is still the truth
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April 19, 2018, 12:04:55 PM
 #2032


God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing that He exists. We know that He exists simply by observing nature, or when we attempt to set ourselves up as gods by trying to believe that God doesn't exist. Believing in God is believing in the things that He tells us in the Bible. Such faith is using reason, basing faith on Bible and God knowledge. Such is reasonable way more than atheism, which tries to force belief in atheism on the so-called atheist while the so-called atheist knows for a fact that God might exist.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The most important faith in this life is saving faith... Jesus salvation faith. It is found through the Bible. Then in Heaven, faith will be increased because we will see some of the results of our faith, and we will understand more of the Word of God, making our faith in the rest of it grow.

The atheists, like everyone else, don't know for a fact what is going to happen in the next second. We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Cool

Let me ask you something badecker, imagine you were born in a heavy islamic country, imagine that you never leave the country either. How certain are you that you would have found out that the ''real god'' is the god from the bible? 1%? Less?

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April 19, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
 #2033

True, religion plays a role in society especially if that religion is prolific in a community. Now a religion will have a set of principles and codes. If these codes are followed strictly then a society will be affected by it. These religious codes most of the times affect legislation and even the government itself. Religion does affect society but religion is not the only precursor. Media and others may affect it. I may be wrong but this my view of it, I'm more than welcome to any corrections.

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April 19, 2018, 02:32:09 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2018, 02:56:19 PM by BADecker
 #2034


God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing that He exists. We know that He exists simply by observing nature, or when we attempt to set ourselves up as gods by trying to believe that God doesn't exist. Believing in God is believing in the things that He tells us in the Bible. Such faith is using reason, basing faith on Bible and God knowledge. Such is reasonable way more than atheism, which tries to force belief in atheism on the so-called atheist while the so-called atheist knows for a fact that God might exist.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The most important faith in this life is saving faith... Jesus salvation faith. It is found through the Bible. Then in Heaven, faith will be increased because we will see some of the results of our faith, and we will understand more of the Word of God, making our faith in the rest of it grow.

The atheists, like everyone else, don't know for a fact what is going to happen in the next second. We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Cool

Let me ask you something badecker, imagine you were born in a heavy islamic country, imagine that you never leave the country either. How certain are you that you would have found out that the ''real god'' is the god from the bible? 1%? Less?

The answer to this question is detailed in some ways.

1. All people have a natural knowledge of the real God. This knowledge isn't complete. But it exists.
2. I don't know that I would have ever found the important truth about God in Islamic countries.
3. I don't know that I would have ever stepped out of wrong faith, into the proof of God's existence in Islamic countries.
4. It is by God's mercy that I am what I am regarding God, and regarding most of my life.
5. Consider that in the past, many of the Arab counties contributed greatly to the basic sciences of math and astronomy. The knowledge of coming to see the truth about God still exists there. Note that even the Koran talks briefly about Jesus, and makes reference to the Bible, and to the religion of the Jews. Knowledge of the real God is penetrating through the false gods even to Islam and Muslims... if only they would use their heads and recognize it.

Praise and thanks to God that He found it good and right to make it easy on me to find Him, by placing me in a situation where I have some of the best info about God. I don't understand how and why this works the way it does.

Cool

EDIT: My ability to understand these things, shows how religion and my mental health work together. But, if I am wrong, and if you can show that I am nuts, then your mental health is being impacted by what you believe, your religion.

Don't be afraid to donate Bitcoin >>> 1JDJotyxZLFF8akGCxHeqMkD4YrrTmEAwz !
Astargath
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April 19, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
 #2035


God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing that He exists. We know that He exists simply by observing nature, or when we attempt to set ourselves up as gods by trying to believe that God doesn't exist. Believing in God is believing in the things that He tells us in the Bible. Such faith is using reason, basing faith on Bible and God knowledge. Such is reasonable way more than atheism, which tries to force belief in atheism on the so-called atheist while the so-called atheist knows for a fact that God might exist.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The most important faith in this life is saving faith... Jesus salvation faith. It is found through the Bible. Then in Heaven, faith will be increased because we will see some of the results of our faith, and we will understand more of the Word of God, making our faith in the rest of it grow.

The atheists, like everyone else, don't know for a fact what is going to happen in the next second. We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Cool

Let me ask you something badecker, imagine you were born in a heavy islamic country, imagine that you never leave the country either. How certain are you that you would have found out that the ''real god'' is the god from the bible? 1%? Less?

The answer to this question is detailed in some ways.

1. All people have a natural knowledge of the real God. This knowledge isn't complete. But it exists.
2. I don't know that I would have ever found the important truth about God in Islamic countries.
3. I don't know that I would have ever stepped out of wrong faith, into the proof of God's existence in Islamic countries.
4. It is by God's mercy that I am what I am regarding God, and regarding most of my life.
5. Consider that in the past, many of the Arab counties contributed greatly to the basic sciences of math and astronomy. The knowledge of coming to see the truth about God still exists there. Note that even the Koran talks briefly about Jesus, and makes reference to the Bible, and to the religion of the Jews. Knowledge of the real God is penetrating through the false gods even to Islam and Muslims... if only they would use their heads and recognize it.

Praise and thanks to God that He found it good and right to make it easy on me to find Him, by placing me in a situation where I have some of the best info about God. I don't understand how and why this works the way it does.

Cool

EDIT: My ability to understand these things, shows how religion and my mental health work together. But, if I am wrong, and if you can show that I am nuts, then your mental health is being impacted by what you believe, your religion.

You are close to understand the obvious flaws of religions but not quite there. You said it yourself, you thank god because he put you in this situation, meaning that god doesn't want Muslims, for example, to find out the real truth, he wanted you to find it but not others, isn't that a bit unfair? That's the fundamental problem of religion, you are sure you believe in the right religion now just like you would be if you were born there, you would think like now, that the islamic faith is the real faith.

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April 19, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2018, 06:49:01 AM by CoinCube
 #2036

It may be true that religion makes people happy because it gives you an alternative to death, however, it is an illusion, you will eventually die and there will be no heaven, no after life, no purpose, no meaning only emptiness, that is life, no that is special, we are really just something going and no purpose. Knowing this fact would be of no use to the happiness of anybody but apart from feeling it is still the truth

This is essentially the worldview of nihilism. It is certainly possible to base your existence in nihilism many people do.

What you should acknowledge is that you are willingly choosing and ASSUMING nihilism. No one has or ever will prove nihilism true. It is an act of faith no different really then the faith of a religious person.

You hint at the necessity of unquestioned acceptance in your final sentence when you declare "it is still the truth".

Have you stopped to considered where the road of nihilism will take you if you follow it to its logical conclusion? BADecker summed up the situation well immediatly upthread.

We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Here is another post of mine on this topic:
Faith and Future

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April 19, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
 #2037


You are close to understand the obvious flaws of religions but not quite there. You said it yourself, you thank god because he put you in this situation, meaning that god doesn't want Muslims, for example, to find out the real truth, he wanted you to find it but not others, isn't that a bit unfair? That's the fundamental problem of religion, you are sure you believe in the right religion now just like you would be if you were born there, you would think like now, that the islamic faith is the real faith.

The situation is more subtle then simply picking one religion and rejecting the rest as false. Accepting the reality of the infinite it follows logically that all human conceptions of God and consequentially all religions must be "wrong" in that they are at best gross simplifications of underlying Truth. At most they are akin to an explanation of quantum mechanics given to 4 year old and even this example understates the vast chasm between reality and our understanding. The choice then is not choosing which religion is right but choosing which religion represents the least distorted simplification that you personally can grasp and follow.

Notably all of the major branches of monotheism Muslims, Christians, and Jews all usually acknowledge that they worship the same God. That is a logical necessity that follows from the concept of an infinite God. The various religions usually differ in their beliefs regarding the duties of the individual in relationship to God and some of the attributes of God.

None of us have ultimate Truth regardless of which religion we follow. At best we have an understandable and mostly accurate simplification of Truth. At worst we have great distortion and self-contradictory beliefs. The value comes from the process of exploration reflection and learning. Each of us and each society are at a different point in that process.

The recent post of brodekola highlights this journey well. Thanks for sharing.

...
I was raised as a Methodist minister’s daughter and later attended various churches: Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal… I attended vacation Bible school, made crayon drawings of crosses and doves, memorized Bible verses, and went on church retreats twice a year. Still, I wasn’t sure what I believed, deep down.

By the time I got to college, I defined myself as a seeker. I went to youth fellowship meetings, read about Buddhism, took a World Religion course, and even thought seriously about joining the Baha’i faith. Nothing fit, but I remember knowing that the search was important. I was 19, and I said out loud, “If God exists, then learning more about God is the most meaningful thing I’ll ever do.”

My search turned up all kinds of answers, some of which were in direct conflict with each other or with what felt true to me. I decided to keep searching, while adhering to the Golden Rule of treating others the way I would want to be treated. Now, in my mid-40s, my conscience still feels pierced when I fail to treat others with kindness. I also make time for active meditation, the only kind I can stand: I give my mind time to slow down, making room for contemplation and silence while doing something physical like walking, folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher.

I found that the Golden Rule structured my behavior in the world, while active meditation offered space for my mind to enrich itself through introspection, self-examination, and appreciation. For me, that combination worked, and it felt right.
...

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April 19, 2018, 09:03:15 PM
 #2038


You are close to understand the obvious flaws of religions but not quite there. You said it yourself, you thank god because he put you in this situation, meaning that god doesn't want Muslims, for example, to find out the real truth, he wanted you to find it but not others, isn't that a bit unfair? That's the fundamental problem of religion, you are sure you believe in the right religion now just like you would be if you were born there, you would think like now, that the islamic faith is the real faith.

The situation is more subtle then simply picking one religion and rejecting the rest as false. Accepting the reality of the infinite it follows logically that all human conceptions of God and consequentially all religions must be "wrong" in that they are at best gross simplifications of underlying Truth. At most they are akin to an explanation of quantum mechanics given to 4 year old and even this example understates the vast chasm between reality and our understanding. The choice then is not choosing which religion is right but choosing which religion represents the least distorted simplification that you personally can grasp and follow.

Notably all of the major branches of monotheism Muslims, Christians, and Jews all usually acknowledge that they worship the same God. That is a logical necessity that follows from the concept of an infinite God. The various religions usually differ in their beliefs regarding the duties of the individual in relationship to God and some of the attributes of God.

None of us have ultimate Truth regardless of which religion we follow. At best we have an understandable and mostly accurate simplification of Truth. At worst we have great distortion and self-contradictory beliefs. The value comes from the process of exploration reflection and learning. Each of us and each society are at a different point in that process.

The recent post of brodekola highlights this journey well. Thanks for sharing.

...
I was raised as a Methodist minister’s daughter and later attended various churches: Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal… I attended vacation Bible school, made crayon drawings of crosses and doves, memorized Bible verses, and went on church retreats twice a year. Still, I wasn’t sure what I believed, deep down.

By the time I got to college, I defined myself as a seeker. I went to youth fellowship meetings, read about Buddhism, took a World Religion course, and even thought seriously about joining the Baha’i faith. Nothing fit, but I remember knowing that the search was important. I was 19, and I said out loud, “If God exists, then learning more about God is the most meaningful thing I’ll ever do.”

My search turned up all kinds of answers, some of which were in direct conflict with each other or with what felt true to me. I decided to keep searching, while adhering to the Golden Rule of treating others the way I would want to be treated. Now, in my mid-40s, my conscience still feels pierced when I fail to treat others with kindness. I also make time for active meditation, the only kind I can stand: I give my mind time to slow down, making room for contemplation and silence while doing something physical like walking, folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher.

I found that the Golden Rule structured my behavior in the world, while active meditation offered space for my mind to enrich itself through introspection, self-examination, and appreciation. For me, that combination worked, and it felt right.
...

You use a lot of philosophy in your arguments but they are not logical sometimes. ''The choice then is not choosing which religion is right but choosing which religion represents the least distorted simplification that you personally can grasp and follow. '' You are saying that we somehow know a god exists but we don't know much about it and then we have to pick the least distorted religion. Yet for thousands of years religions have existed, science has advanced a lot and here are, not any closer in discovering which religion is the best, everyone still believes in the same religions as before, you don't see a lot of muslims converting into Christianity just like you don't see a lot of Christians convert to islam. You wanna know why? Because 99% of religious people, no matter which religion, believe in what they believe because they were taught that way not because they wanted to find out the truth. Again, that's the problem with religions and its followers.

You keep talking about ''accepting the reality of the infinite'' like it means something but it really doesn't.

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BADecker
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April 19, 2018, 09:27:11 PM
 #2039


God doesn't place more emphasis on blind faith than on reason. If God did this, He would have not created the universe. Rather, he would have created a bunch of non-embodied spirits, and then let them attempt to figure out some form of body on their own by faith alone... which they couldn't have done because of their lack of imagination.

All of the universe exists to train people to use their faith to make things happen like God does. But people are such infants that it will take them most or all of eternity to figure out how to use faith, even though they have the abundant examples of the universe. The examples of the universe are the things that make for visible faith rather than blind faith.

Cool

Yes he does otherwise you wouldn't need to believe in god to go to heaven. In fact atheists should go to heaven instead of theists because they are the ones using reason to find out the truth. Unlike theists that believe what they are told without ever trying to find proof or evidence.

How do you train yourself to use ''faith'' exactly? Faith: ''strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'' Every baptist has faith in his religion just like every Catholic or orthodox or muslim or christian. They all have faith in different things and yet not all of them can be right, clearly faith is not working, is it? How would we ever know which one is correct if we are only using faith? Don't you see how stupid that is?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing that He exists. We know that He exists simply by observing nature, or when we attempt to set ourselves up as gods by trying to believe that God doesn't exist. Believing in God is believing in the things that He tells us in the Bible. Such faith is using reason, basing faith on Bible and God knowledge. Such is reasonable way more than atheism, which tries to force belief in atheism on the so-called atheist while the so-called atheist knows for a fact that God might exist.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." The most important faith in this life is saving faith... Jesus salvation faith. It is found through the Bible. Then in Heaven, faith will be increased because we will see some of the results of our faith, and we will understand more of the Word of God, making our faith in the rest of it grow.

The atheists, like everyone else, don't know for a fact what is going to happen in the next second. We all live by faith. To a great extent it is your choice regarding which faith you attempt to have. Examine, extensively, whatever it is that maintains your faith, and the truth of the direction you want your faith to move in. Make sure it is correct. That is the best you can do.

Cool

Let me ask you something badecker, imagine you were born in a heavy islamic country, imagine that you never leave the country either. How certain are you that you would have found out that the ''real god'' is the god from the bible? 1%? Less?

The answer to this question is detailed in some ways.

1. All people have a natural knowledge of the real God. This knowledge isn't complete. But it exists.
2. I don't know that I would have ever found the important truth about God in Islamic countries.
3. I don't know that I would have ever stepped out of wrong faith, into the proof of God's existence in Islamic countries.
4. It is by God's mercy that I am what I am regarding God, and regarding most of my life.
5. Consider that in the past, many of the Arab counties contributed greatly to the basic sciences of math and astronomy. The knowledge of coming to see the truth about God still exists there. Note that even the Koran talks briefly about Jesus, and makes reference to the Bible, and to the religion of the Jews. Knowledge of the real God is penetrating through the false gods even to Islam and Muslims... if only they would use their heads and recognize it.

Praise and thanks to God that He found it good and right to make it easy on me to find Him, by placing me in a situation where I have some of the best info about God. I don't understand how and why this works the way it does.

Cool

EDIT: My ability to understand these things, shows how religion and my mental health work together. But, if I am wrong, and if you can show that I am nuts, then your mental health is being impacted by what you believe, your religion.

You are close to understand the obvious flaws of religions but not quite there. You said it yourself, you thank god because he put you in this situation, meaning that god doesn't want Muslims, for example, to find out the real truth, he wanted you to find it but not others, isn't that a bit unfair? That's the fundamental problem of religion, you are sure you believe in the right religion now just like you would be if you were born there, you would think like now, that the islamic faith is the real faith.

Since you know this, you also understand that atheism is one of the silliest religions that there is.

As I have explained over and over, the reasons why God does what He does with us, are based on the amount of faith we have in Him or against Him. This includes the faith we have before we are conceived. This means that God's judgments are righteous, because He is doing what we ask in our faith. (One of the weaknesses of science is that it has no clear way to measure the spirit, soul and faith.)

The only unfairness that exists along these lines, is the unfairness many people claim that God has, when He bends over backward to warn people about their choices, but they go on their merry way anyway. Then they blame Him when it doesn't work out for their benefit, because He gave them what they asked for.

All Muslims have a choice to make. Either continue with Islam. Or get out of it. If their faith in God becomes strong, God will work their getting out of Islam. Their faith is where their choice lies.

Cool

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April 19, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Last edit: April 20, 2018, 02:37:16 AM by CoinCube
 #2040


You use a lot of philosophy in your arguments but they are not logical sometimes. ''The choice then is not choosing which religion is right but choosing which religion represents the least distorted simplification that you personally can grasp and follow. '' You are saying that we somehow know a god exists but we don't know much about it and then we have to pick the least distorted religion. Yet for thousands of years religions have existed, science has advanced a lot and here are, not any closer in discovering which religion is the best, everyone still believes in the same religions as before, you don't see a lot of muslims converting into Christianity just like you don't see a lot of Christians convert to islam. You wanna know why? Because 99% of religious people, no matter which religion, believe in what they believe because they were taught that way not because they wanted to find out the truth. Again, that's the problem with religions and its followers.

You keep talking about ''accepting the reality of the infinite'' like it means something but it really doesn't.

Everyone does not believe in the same religions as those of the past. History is a vast arc of humanity slowly approaching truth while rejecting falsehood. Part of the reason you are not following my arguments is that I am using a much broader definition of religion then you are. You seem to limit your definition of religion to "gods" and wall off other beliefs as "something else". This is very common but in my opinion it is an incorrect categorization one that is ultimately misleading.

I define religion as anything an individual structures their life around either consciously or unconsciously. Thus I consider things like Communism, Nazism (Fascist Darwinian Nationalism), and Nihilism religions if they are honestly embraced by the individual as overarching truth. I agree with BADecker that a very broad classification religion is more representative of reality.

Most people believe what they do because they were taught that way not because of an introspective search for the truth. This is true of a huge swath of humanity whether their religion is centered on God or centered on something else. It is one of our many major flaws a fundamental and deep lack of reflection.

The rise of nihilism in modern times is largely due to the fact that we are reaching the point in our development where this lack of reflection is becoming less and less of an option. Unlike in simpler times we can no longer ignore the question and blindly embrace the beliefs of our colleges and parents. We are increasingly forced to confront challenges to our views and thus actively define who we are.

When I speak of the reality of God's existence and accepting the reality of the infinite it actually does mean something. What I am referring to is a foundation that is available to center ourselves on a rock to ground existence and knowledge itself upon. In philosophy this is referred to as a metaphysical grounding. The link below discusses what this is in more detail if you are interested.

Metaphysical Grounding: Understanding the Structure of Reality
https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/metaphysical-grounding-understanding-the-structure-of-reality/

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