Health and Religion

[CheraFaye]

I don't think IQ depends on one's religious position, but I guess that this phenomenon can be explained anyway. Nobody is absolutely rational. This is just how human nture works for us. We have feelings, sometimes we want to do something totally useless not having much of a clue why... I suppose a rational person needs something to rationalize. And this something must be irrational. Just like a belief in God, who created everything and can even communicate with people in some ways. I guess it is something like a source of inspiration for a person. Therefore, if you have something unexplainable to think of, you appear to be smarter than those who try to be totally rational

[BADecker]

You still haven't answered the fact that since God made everything, and since He knows all about it better than anybody, and since He owns it all, homosexuality is wrong simply because God said it is wrong. It doesn't need a reason other than God said it.

If you think like that and you are willing to follow the leadership of a tyrant that sets arbitrary rules then you are already lost. Even if a god existed, I would not follow him if he is using random rules and laws, unfortunately your god is supposed to be benevolent and all loving, something that doesn't fit with the rule to kill homosexuals, therefore god doesn't exist, yours in particular at least.

Since even science agrees with what I said, why are you so against science? And on what do you base your supposed logic? Certainly you are not a religious person, are you?

[BADecker]

Again, it is not the homosexual nature or tendencies that are the sin, although they show the sinful nature in us all. Rather, it is doing the homosexual acts that are the sin.

And that makes sense, how? Having sex is the sin? Why? Because it's pleasure? There is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it is consensual. You are digging your hole even deeper with these arguments.

You forgot to read what I said. Homosexual sex is wrong. Heterosexual sex between married people is almost required by God. Why do you continue to defy God, the Maker and Designer of the universe?

[CoinCube]

Nature is what it is.  I'm not sure what 'God' is so I cannot comment whether 'God' is nature or nature is 'God'.
...
Gay men are physically capable of having sex with women, so your talk about disability does not make sense.  They can physically have sex with straight women or have children through artificial insemination.  Their sexual preference is hardly a disability.  They can reproduce if they want to.  There are many examples of gay men that have been married to straight women and had children.

As for 'fixing' gay genes, well, who says we should be fixing anything.

We are doing enough 'fixing' of nature as it is.
...
PS. Not having to worry about God and scriptures, will free up your mind.  Try it.  Your mind will become very lucid in no time.

I am sure you would agree that there are a lot of "natural" things that are not good things. It is natural to steal if you can get away with it. It is natural to want to have sexual relations with your neighbors wife if you are heterosexual and she is young and attractive. It is natural to want to murder your arch enemy if you can safely do so and avoid punishment.

Nature is clearly not always good. That's why you have your one moral rule. Some form of overarching moral structure is NECESSARY or we truly degenerate into something worse than an animal.

Let's run with your theory and say homosexuality is a culling mechanism like cellular apoptosis that occurs at some low frequency randomly and is triggered by severe environmental stress or toxic exposure. I cited several studies above showing that homosexuality is induced in animals by multiple different toxins so your theory is plausible.  

If we are condemning large number of children to genetic death in the womb or in early childhood because we are inadvertently poisoning them with toxins or by placing them in situations of severe environmental stress are we not harming them? Isn't that a huge violation of your moral standard of do not harm others and in need of urgent and critical rectification?

Gay men are physically capable of having sex with women. They can reproduce if they want to. The problem of course is that they don't want to and that lack of desire is in part not a choice. If that lack of desire is in any way the result of human action however unintentional then they are victims of a horrible crime. One we have a moral obligation to understand and reverse if the victims wish or at least stop committing in the future.

If you are serious about your moral standard and truly believe your own theory about homosexuality I am curious as to how you can see it any other way.

[Astargath]

You still haven't answered the fact that since God made everything, and since He knows all about it better than anybody, and since He owns it all, homosexuality is wrong simply because God said it is wrong. It doesn't need a reason other than God said it.

If you think like that and you are willing to follow the leadership of a tyrant that sets arbitrary rules then you are already lost. Even if a god existed, I would not follow him if he is using random rules and laws, unfortunately your god is supposed to be benevolent and all loving, something that doesn't fit with the rule to kill homosexuals, therefore god doesn't exist, yours in particular at least.

Since even science agrees with what I said, why are you so against science? And on what do you base your supposed logic? Certainly you are not a religious person, are you?

Science agrees that god made everything, where, in your mind? Show me the scientific paper/theory/hypothesis of that. Science agrees homosexuality is wrong? Where, show me.

[Astargath]

Again, it is not the homosexual nature or tendencies that are the sin, although they show the sinful nature in us all. Rather, it is doing the homosexual acts that are the sin.

And that makes sense, how? Having sex is the sin? Why? Because it's pleasure? There is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it is consensual. You are digging your hole even deeper with these arguments.

You forgot to read what I said. Homosexual sex is wrong. Heterosexual sex between married people is almost required by God. Why do you continue to defy God, the Maker and Designer of the universe?

Saying homosexual sex is wrong doesn't make it wrong, why is it wrong, if it's consensual. It's pleasure, it doesn't hurt anyone, why is it wrong badecker?

[CoinCube]

Modern pollution is a problem.  I agree.  It changes our bodies, our digestive, nervous and hormonal systems.  

Polluting businesses should be held accountable for their actions.  IMHO, all processed food industry should be on trial.

What you are suggesting is that we somehow can control what nature puts out and how nature controls living organisms.  I don't think we have the technology to 'save the gay people'.  I don't feel they need to be 'saved' because I don't think they are 'disabled' or 'damned'.  Many straight people decide not to have children at all, are you going to go after them and correct their genes (assuming the issue is genetic in nature)?  It is a slippery slope.  I would stay away and let the nature deal with it.  When two gay people are having sex they are not harming anyone.  It is their choice, let them be happy.  And you be happy.  

Nature is cruel, but it works.  Sometimes interfering with it causes more long-term damage than it is worthwhile.

PS. Human population doubles every '70/growth rate' years.  If nature can find a way to slow it down, the better our chances of survival as humanity.  We'll have to leave Earth sooner rather than later because of our exponential population growth.  Currently we are adding 1 billion people every 12 years.  That is the root cause of most of our pollution problems.  But nobody wants to talk about it.  Politicians, businessmen want 'growth'.

You do realize that this "acceptance/worship of nature" can take you to some very dark places. Nature is amoral. There is great evil in nature.

Here are some comments on the topic by Dennis Prager. He is the author of The Rational Bible.

"Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally."

Essentially you are making the case that we don't know for sure yet that toxins are causing human homosexuality and even if they are the earth is overpopulated so it is for the best if a large number of humans end up being involuntary modified so they don't want to reproduce. More room for you and your offspring. Let nature sort it out via survival of the fittest.

Yours is a very natural argument and it is not logically incorrect. It is however very flawed in other ways deeper fundamental ways.

I agree with you that we will have to leave Earth sooner rather than later. That is inevitable. Miscreanity shared some thoughts on this topic. I found them quite insightful.


Faith and Future

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

The following two (relatively) short videos may be of interest regarding previous discussion:
The moral argument for God
Why Does God Allow Evil?

Regardless, thank you I understand your position. I will now step away from this conversation as I have other obligations that will occupy my time for the next two weeks. I will give you the last word.

[BADecker]

Again, it is not the homosexual nature or tendencies that are the sin, although they show the sinful nature in us all. Rather, it is doing the homosexual acts that are the sin.

And that makes sense, how? Having sex is the sin? Why? Because it's pleasure? There is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it is consensual. You are digging your hole even deeper with these arguments.

You forgot to read what I said. Homosexual sex is wrong. Heterosexual sex between married people is almost required by God. Why do you continue to defy God, the Maker and Designer of the universe?

Saying homosexual sex is wrong doesn't make it wrong, why is it wrong, if it's consensual. It's pleasure, it doesn't hurt anyone, why is it wrong badecker?

God says it is wrong. So it is wrong no matter the reason. You figure it out.

[BADecker]

You still haven't answered the fact that since God made everything, and since He knows all about it better than anybody, and since He owns it all, homosexuality is wrong simply because God said it is wrong. It doesn't need a reason other than God said it.

If you think like that and you are willing to follow the leadership of a tyrant that sets arbitrary rules then you are already lost. Even if a god existed, I would not follow him if he is using random rules and laws, unfortunately your god is supposed to be benevolent and all loving, something that doesn't fit with the rule to kill homosexuals, therefore god doesn't exist, yours in particular at least.

Since even science agrees with what I said, why are you so against science? And on what do you base your supposed logic? Certainly you are not a religious person, are you?

Science agrees that god made everything, where, in your mind? Show me the scientific paper/theory/hypothesis of that. Science agrees homosexuality is wrong? Where, show me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380

[BADecker]

Again, it is not the homosexual nature or tendencies that are the sin, although they show the sinful nature in us all. Rather, it is doing the homosexual acts that are the sin.

And that makes sense, how? Having sex is the sin? Why? Because it's pleasure? There is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it is consensual. You are digging your hole even deeper with these arguments.

You forgot to read what I said. Homosexual sex is wrong. Heterosexual sex between married people is almost required by God. Why do you continue to defy God, the Maker and Designer of the universe?

The question was why you think it is wrong?  Because you would not enjoy it?  Or because the Bible says so?

Second question is: wrong to who?

Ask gay men if it is wrong?  Ask women who prefer to have anal sex if anal sex is wrong?

It is their business how they like to have sex.  

"required by God"?  What that does even mean?  Does God talk to you?  How do you know what God wants or what God is?

Please don't say "the Bible says so..."

The act of homosexuality is wrong because God says it in the Bible. God's first commandment to mankind in general is to populate the earth. The act of homosexuality detracts from this.

Just because people think something, doesn't make them right in it. After all, how many people thought they were going to make it to work in the morning, but they died in a car accident. They didn't know, but God does, because He is the inventor of every aspect of universal physics.

Me personally? I go with God.

[zain_h332]

I don't believe these studies at all, times have changed and the problem is always extremist people. Judging by religions is a mistake at this time. Or are we still living in caverns?

[Astargath]

You still haven't answered the fact that since God made everything, and since He knows all about it better than anybody, and since He owns it all, homosexuality is wrong simply because God said it is wrong. It doesn't need a reason other than God said it.

If you think like that and you are willing to follow the leadership of a tyrant that sets arbitrary rules then you are already lost. Even if a god existed, I would not follow him if he is using random rules and laws, unfortunately your god is supposed to be benevolent and all loving, something that doesn't fit with the rule to kill homosexuals, therefore god doesn't exist, yours in particular at least.

Since even science agrees with what I said, why are you so against science? And on what do you base your supposed logic? Certainly you are not a religious person, are you?

Science agrees that god made everything, where, in your mind? Show me the scientific paper/theory/hypothesis of that. Science agrees homosexuality is wrong? Where, show me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380

Those are not scientific papers or theories, that's you saying the same shit that was debunked here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg36856253#msg36856253

[Astargath]

Again, it is not the homosexual nature or tendencies that are the sin, although they show the sinful nature in us all. Rather, it is doing the homosexual acts that are the sin.

And that makes sense, how? Having sex is the sin? Why? Because it's pleasure? There is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it is consensual. You are digging your hole even deeper with these arguments.

You forgot to read what I said. Homosexual sex is wrong. Heterosexual sex between married people is almost required by God. Why do you continue to defy God, the Maker and Designer of the universe?

Saying homosexual sex is wrong doesn't make it wrong, why is it wrong, if it's consensual. It's pleasure, it doesn't hurt anyone, why is it wrong badecker?

God says it is wrong. So it is wrong no matter the reason. You figure it out.

So, exactly what I said, if god tells you to kill your mother you would do it, because god said so, hehe. How do you even know it was god who said it? Are you killing homosexuals right now? Otherwise you are disobeying god.

[CoinCube]

...
You are underestimating the gains Atheists have made.

You are done in Europe
...

Sadly I cannot dispute the claim that Europe is lost.

The Suicide of Europe
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=stR5nWkq3LU

[BADecker]

Ok that is what you think.  You know what I think?  The leaders of the early societies got together and decided they need to establish some ground rules to control their societies.  They could not say they came up with it, so they claimed that God wrote it.  Because you know you cannot argue with 'God', LOL.  It took 2500 years to edit and polish the text, eventually some of their early writings were adopted in 325 AD.  And you have your Bible.

You give yourself (I mean God) too much credit.  'God' is in your head.  Just be careful, do not harm other organisms just because you hear voices from God.

I think it is time we come up with the 21st century version of the "Bible" based on what we know about the universe to help humanity survive the next millennium.  

BTW, populating Earth is the last thing we should be doing.  I say we have exceeded your God's goal long time ago.

You think those things because it is so much easier in your corrupted state, than examining statistics and science. If you examined science, you would see that cause and effect, plus entropy, plus complexity, as they all exist in this universe, prove that God exists.

If you examined the science of the history of the nation of Israel, and the history of the way the Bible came together, and the kind of people the nation of Israel is, and compared it all to probability, you would see that Israel and the Bible have not come together by accident. Rather, you would see that they are impossible to have come together the way they have (just like the existence of the earth and life the way they are, are impossible). Studying the other religions and nations confirms it.

All your thinking is simply nonsense in your head. It proves the fact that you and the devil have corrupted your core nature, and that you enjoy the fact that you are corrupted. It's only by the grace of God that you don't go all the way and corrupt yourself with the corruption that the worms in the ground will do to you after you die.

There is so extremely much room left for populations to expand on the earth, that making populations grow is the thing that we should be doing ahead of everything else. This way we might be able to expand science with all those extra minds, so that we could do all kinds of things that we are too weak to do because there are not enough of us. You are extremely backward in your thinking.

[BADecker]

So, exactly what I said, if god tells you to kill your mother you would do it, because god said so, hehe. How do you even know it was god who said it? Are you killing homosexuals right now? Otherwise you are disobeying god.

But remember the little word (if) in your statement.

IF it were a completely known fact that God Himself told me to do anything, I would do it. IF it were a completely known fact that any of His commands were for me and not for other people, I would follow them.

Since you are so extremely corrupted in your ways, you turn you back on the whole idea of the existence of God, although I have shown you much of the proof of God's existence.

It is you who are helping to kill homosexual people. How? Simply by encouraging them to continue to remain in their homosexuality, to their own damnation in Hell. It will go far worse for you than for them.

[BADecker]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380

Those are not scientific papers or theories, that's you saying the same shit that was debunked here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg36856253#msg36856253

Your debunking has been debunked. Do you know how we know that your debunking has been debunked? By the fact that you can't explain anything of your so-called debunking in such a way that would show that you know what you are talking about. Since you don't know what you are talking about (as exampled by your inability to explain any of it), you also don't know that there is anything to debunk.

You are operating from a standpoint of ignorant blab. It is your religion, since you like it that way. When are you going to step out of your dumb religion, into the religion that produces good health?

[BADecker]

I don't believe these studies at all, times have changed and the problem is always extremist people. Judging by religions is a mistake at this time. Or are we still living in caverns?

You are living in a cavern. Even if it is a tent, it is a portable cavern. Wake up and see that people haven't changed except to become a little "dumber" than they were thousands of years ago.

[Astargath]

So, exactly what I said, if god tells you to kill your mother you would do it, because god said so, hehe. How do you even know it was god who said it? Are you killing homosexuals right now? Otherwise you are disobeying god.

But remember the little word (if) in your statement.

IF it were a completely known fact that God Himself told me to do anything, I would do it. IF it were a completely known fact that any of His commands were for me and not for other people, I would follow them.

Since you are so extremely corrupted in your ways, you turn you back on the whole idea of the existence of God, although I have shown you much of the proof of God's existence.

It is you who are helping to kill homosexual people. How? Simply by encouraging them to continue to remain in their homosexuality, to their own damnation in Hell. It will go far worse for you than for them.

You said the bible is a moral code divinely inspired, the bible clearly states you should kill homosexuals, don't use excuses now, don't be a pussy, come on do it, god will save you.

[Astargath]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380

Those are not scientific papers or theories, that's you saying the same shit that was debunked here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg36856253#msg36856253

Your debunking has been debunked. Do you know how we know that your debunking has been debunked? By the fact that you can't explain anything of your so-called debunking in such a way that would show that you know what you are talking about. Since you don't know what you are talking about (as exampled by your inability to explain any of it), you also don't know that there is anything to debunk.

You are operating from a standpoint of ignorant blab. It is your religion, since you like it that way. When are you going to step out of your dumb religion, into the religion that produces good health?

You copy pasted that btw. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg36856253#msg36856253

You were not able to respond, means you lost.