Health and Religion

[BADecker]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

[af_newbie]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

Does your 'fertilized egg' have medulla oblongata, or any other specialized organ that human beings have?

Why are you calling it a 'human being'?

Who said I like killing humans?  I am not your Biblical God.

[BADecker]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

Does your 'fertilized egg' have medulla oblongata, or any other specialized organ that human beings have?

Why are you calling it a 'human being'?

Who said I like killing humans?  I am not your Biblical God.

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

[af_newbie]

Spit is just an example of cells that have a full human genome, and yet they are not a human being.  You can substitute your pubic hair follicles if you like. You guys started talking about how human fertilized eggs are human beings because they have a human genome.

I said over and over again that I am against the killing of viable babies.  You perverted your religious 'soul injection at conception' into something that it is not.  

At fertilization, a human egg is not a human being.

Why is it hard for you to understand this?  I don't get it, you cannot be that stupid or ignorant.

Please, please... Stop humiliating yourself like this.

Don't you realize that some hair-folical-cell, even though it has the complete genome of the particular human, is not a cell that can develop into a fully grown adult human? How in the world self degrading are you trying to be? You know this, yet you make believe that somebody is saying that any old cell in a person is the full human.

But the fertilized egg is a full human being... simply at a certain stage of its development for the moment.

If a man/woman is 20-years-old, and lives 30 more years, isn't he/she still a human being at any of these ages? Why are you trying to take away the humanity of people because they are not as fully developed at one stage as another? You are probably in favor of euthanasia, right?, because a 90-y-o is not a human being any longer, right?

You talk like you want to see people live, but you neglect recognizing what people are. How in the world dense are you? Just because a human isn't as developed at some stage of its life, doesn't make it any less of a human.

If you like killing off humans so much, stop condemning the Bible when there is righteous talk of killing humans to get rid of the killing. You are acting like a complete hypocrite.

Does your 'fertilized egg' have medulla oblongata, or any other specialized organ that human beings have?

Why are you calling it a 'human being'?

Who said I like killing humans?  I am not your Biblical God.

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

I will make it really simple for you and your sidekick CoinCube.

You just picked up a fresh, fertilized chicken egg.
Are you holding an egg or a chicken?

Now, a researcher handed you a petri dish with
a fertilized human egg.

Are you holding a petri dish with a fertilized human
egg or a human being?

Hint: We make omelets from eggs not chickens.

[BADecker]

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

I will make it really simple for you and your sidekick CoinCube.

You just picked up a fresh, fertilized chicken egg.
Are you holding an egg or a chicken?

Now, a researcher handed you a petri dish with
a fertilized human egg.

Are you holding a petri dish with a fertilized human
egg or a human being?

Hint: We make omelets from eggs not chickens.

Thank you for making it doubly simple for me to make it simple for you.

Fertilized chicken eggs are chickens in process. Just because we don't think or talk of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we cook and eat the chicken, so we cook and eat the egg. Like we cook and eat the egg, so we cook and eat the chicken. Simple, right? They are in process up until the time we cook and eat them, or until they die of old age.

Now, considering people. Fertilized human eggs are people in process. Just because some judges or wacky scientists don't think of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we kill people in war, so we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion. Like we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion, so we kill people in war.

The petri dish holds a human being in early stages of life... except if you kill the human.

[IadixDev]

Why are you making an exception for a bunch of cells on a petri dish?  Because a fertilized egg has the potential of becoming a human being?

I don't care what the Bible says.  This is the vilest book I have ever read. You can safely dismiss EVERYTHING the Bible says.

A fertilized egg is not a human being.  If you think it is, show me?  Does it have a brain and liver?  How about the lungs?

There is no exception. A skin cell is not a unique human with the potential for independent life. With a little time and support the human embryo will not only unfold into all of the secondary characteristics you so value it will also eventually learn to stand on its own and support itself.

Clearly you should care about what the Bible says perhaps then you would not be so keen to sacrifice the most vulnerable human lives upon the alter of science.  

Even without going into the bible what i find worrying is how medical science is straying away from hypocrathes oath. I can understand practice can evolve and we dont have To stick To 2000 years old practice and ethics, but on the general principle of what the role of a physician is supposed to be about, which is protecting life, not doing any action that will harm life, and the only practice he is allowed to do is to cure a disease or ailment, which also exclude abortion from medical practice.

Now it seems its going all corporate, even with organ traffic, and all kind of things that make it look more like bio industry than the original principles in which pharmaceutics and physicians are supposed To be grounded.

https://youtu.be/dYtqtwfJviI :p

[af_newbie]

You continue to like killing humans because they do not have fully developed organs like some other humans have. Is a 30-y-o human without arms and legs still a human? You like to pick on certain aspects, but you don't do it with equality. Humans are humans, from the instant of fertilization to the moment of death.

Think about this. If unfertilized eggs, or sperm that didn't do any fertilizing, developed into humans, then they would be humans, as well. Since they don't, they aren't humans.

I will make it really simple for you and your sidekick CoinCube.

You just picked up a fresh, fertilized chicken egg.
Are you holding an egg or a chicken?

Now, a researcher handed you a petri dish with
a fertilized human egg.

Are you holding a petri dish with a fertilized human
egg or a human being?

Hint: We make omelets from eggs not chickens.

Thank you for making it doubly simple for me to make it simple for you.

Fertilized chicken eggs are chickens in process. Just because we don't think or talk of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we cook and eat the chicken, so we cook and eat the egg. Like we cook and eat the egg, so we cook and eat the chicken. Simple, right? They are in process up until the time we cook and eat them, or until they die of old age.

Now, considering people. Fertilized human eggs are people in process. Just because some judges or wacky scientists don't think of them that way, doesn't mean they aren't that way.

How do we know? Like we kill people in war, so we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion. Like we kill fertilized-egg, unborn people in abortion, so we kill people in war.

The petri dish holds a human being in early stages of life... except if you kill the human.

But physically your 'chickens in process' are not chickens, they are eggs, right?

If I asked you to draw an egg, what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw a chicken, what would you draw?

[CoinCube]

But physically your 'chickens in process' are not chickens, they are eggs, right?

If I asked you to draw an egg, what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw a chicken, what would you draw?

You are too tied up in superficial and transient external characteristics.

If I asked you to draw a newborn baby chick what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw an adult rooster what would you draw?

These look nothing like each other but they are just stages of development of the same creation. The same is true of the embryo.

Embryo:


Chick:


Adult:

[af_newbie]

But physically your 'chickens in process' are not chickens, they are eggs, right?

If I asked you to draw an egg, what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw a chicken, what would you draw?

You are too tied up in superficial and transient external characteristics.

If I asked you to draw a newborn baby chick what would you draw?
If I asked you to draw an adult rooster what would you draw?

These look nothing like each other but they are just stages of development of the same creation. The same is true of the embryo.

Embryo:


Chick:


Adult:

You forgot to add a chicken egg.  

An egg is not chicken, it will turn into an embryo, then into a chick, right?

A chicken is not an egg, right?

[CoinCube]

You forgot to add a chicken egg.  An egg is not chicken, it will turn into an embryo, then into a chick, right?

No eggs do not spontaneously transform into embryos. The kind of eggs you buy at the store are not embryos they are just eggs. They never had any chance of becoming a chicken.

You are confusing yourself and attempting to mislead anyone reading this thread with your constant use of disingenuous and misleading language. An egg is not an embryo. The egg will not spontaneously do anything other then sit there. The embryo is the first stage of a new living organism and it will will spontaneously develop into a living adult.

[af_newbie]

You forgot to add a chicken egg.  An egg is not chicken, it will turn into an embryo, then into a chick, right?

No eggs do not spontaneously transform into embryos. The kind of eggs you buy at the store are not embryos they are just eggs. They never had any chance of becoming a chicken.

You are confusing yourself and attempting to mislead anyone reading this thread with your constant use of disingenuous and misleading language. An egg is not an embryo. The egg will not spontaneously do anything other then sit there. The embryo is the first stage of a new living organism and it will will spontaneously develop into a living adult.

A chicken is not a fertilized egg, right?
A fertilized egg is not a chicken, right?

Here is what a fertilized egg looks like (just in case you have never seen one):

PS. I don't buy eggs at the store. LOL.  I get them from my chicken house.  Yes, we have a rooster.

[CoinCube]

A chicken is not a fertilized egg, right?
A fertilized egg is not a chicken, right?

PS. I don't buy eggs at the store. LOL.  I get them from my chicken house.

A chicken embryo is a very young chicken at the start of its life.

I mean seriously use your eyes and look at the picture of the embryo I posted immediately above. You can call it a "fertilized egg" all you want. Its obviously very young chicken about to come out of its shell.

You can go find pictures of chicken embryo younger then 14 days old that are clearly not ready to leave their shells. They will look less and less recognizable the younger they are until you get back to the single cell stage once more. That does not change anything those are still chickens. They are chickens in their very earliest stages of development and unrecognizable visually for what they are but they are chickens nevertheless.

[af_newbie]

A chicken is not a fertilized egg, right?
A fertilized egg is not a chicken, right?

PS. I don't buy eggs at the store. LOL.  I get them from my chicken house.

A chicken embryo is a very young chicken at the start of its life.

I mean seriously use your eyes and look at the picture of the embryo I posted immediately above. You can call it a "fertilized egg" all you want. Its obviously very young chicken about to come out of its shell.

You can go find pictures of chicken embryo younger then 14 days old that are clearly not ready to leave their shells. They will look less and less recognizable the younger they are until you get back to the single cell stage once more. That does not change anything those are still a chickens. They are chickens in their very earliest stages of development and unrecognizable visually for what they are but they are chickens nevertheless.

I am talking about fertilized chicken eggs.  Focus, doctor, focus.  Is this a chicken, doctor?

[CoinCube]

Yes that is a chicken embryo. This one was killed probably for this photo but had it not been killed and had it been kept warm between 99 and 102 degrees Fahrenheit it would have grown into a baby chick in less then 21 days.

For those who don't know. Chicken eggs purchased at stores are eggs not embryos. They lack the small embryonic tissue highlighted in af_newbies photo.    

I am talking about fertilized chicken eggs.  Focus, doctor, focus.  Is this a chicken, doctor?

It was the very beginning of a new chicken life. It is a dead chicken.

[77alex777]

I had an IQ of 160 once upon a time. It's probably about 100 less now. I regard the religious as mentally ill. I have zero desire to procreate and think the world's a fuckhole. Hey, I guess you're right.

I'm sorry, but your IQ is probably already 159 less than it was. You didn't say absolutely nothing reasonable. Just an ordinary man in the street who wants to just laugh on the Internet.

[af_newbie]

Yes that is a chicken embryo. This one was killed probably for this photo but had it not been killed and had it been kept warm between 99 and 102 degrees Fahrenheit it would have grown into a baby chick in less then 21 days.

For those who don't know. Chicken eggs purchased at stores are eggs not embryos. They lack the small embryonic tissue highlighted in af_newbies photo.    

I am talking about fertilized chicken eggs.  Focus, doctor, focus.  Is this a chicken, doctor?

It was the very beginning of a new chicken life. It is a dead chicken.

I am guessing you have not seen a dead chicken.  A dead chicken does not look like a fertilized egg. LOL.

You are just dishonest to acknowledge the difference and admit that you are making a logical fallacy.  
I don't think you are a complete idiot, despite the fact that you hang on to a lost argument only a complete moron or BADecker would.

It is not a dead chicken, it is a fertilized egg.  This is what a dead chicken looks like:


With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.

You guys are comedians.  "Fertilized eggs are dead chickens" WTF?  You guys are cracking me up.

[CoinCube]

...
With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.
...

The only logical fallacy is yours. The start of life the moment of conception is the only clear and objective metric possible use when differentiating life from non-life. Any other division or "personhood metric" is utterly subjective. BADecker summed it up well above. Your failure to understand it is just that your failure.

...
Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.
...
A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.
...

What you can't seem to grasp is that you are accepting the moral exclusion of a vast portion of humanity. Such a process taken to its logical conclusion can just as easily be turned against you or more likely your descendants. A genetically engineered and "superior" branch of humanity may decide that your obvious inferiority makes you not a "real person" and mark you down for liquidation. Or perhaps an AI vastly superior to you in all ways will examine you as you examine the human embryo and decide that you are so far below its level of awareness that you don't count as conscious. After all is it not just to apply your own logical framework upon you? You may dismiss these possibilities as far fetched but technology is marching us day by day to the point where they will be very possible.

[af_newbie]

...
With your logical fallacy, we might as well call everything alive a living organism and throw away all the descriptions we have developed over the years to properly describe living organisms, name them, categorize and identify different stages of their development.  You can take your analogy even further and say that some atoms in the universe are 'future chicken in progress'.  LOL.
...

The only logical fallacy is yours. The start of life the moment of conception is the only clear and objective metric possible use when differentiating life from non-life. Any other division or "personhood metric" is utterly subjective. BADecker summed it up well above. Your failure to understand it is just that your failure.

...
Removing a human life is different that removing a wart.

Determining when the embryo/fetus becomes a human life is judgmental. Nobody can make such a determination accurately. To do so means that the judgment could be at age 10, or at age 20, or at any other age. This is part of the reason we have wars. One group of humans says that another group of humans should be exterminated.
...
A fertilized human egg is simply a stage in human life. Legal murder at this stage sets the stage to make it legal at any stage.
...

What you can't seem to grasp is that you are accepting the moral exclusion of a vast portion of humanity. Such a process taken to its logical conclusion can just as easily be turned against you or more likely your descendants. A genetically engineered and "superior" branch of humanity may decide that your obvious inferiority makes you not a "real person" and mark you down for liquidation. Or perhaps an AI vastly superior to you in all ways will examine you as you examine the human embryo and decide that you are so far below its level of awareness that you don't count as conscious. After all is it not just to apply your own logical framework upon you? You may dismiss these possibilities as far fetched but technology is marching us day by day to the point where they will be very possible.

Go to the farmer's market and buy eggs and meat chickens.  Then compare.

Your failure to understand the difference is astounding.

You are making a false equivalence logical fallacy.

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo.
And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/245/False-Equivalence

[CoinCube]

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.

Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout. 

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.

[af_newbie]

Chick is not the same as a chicken.  An embryo is not the same as a chick, a fertilized egg is not the same as an embryo. And finally, a fertilized egg is not the same as a chicken.

Their genome is the same but they are not the same.

Of course organisms are not "the same" at each stage of their life cycle. That is not the point and your language remains sloppy. You are not the same as you were 10 years ago or the same as you will be 10 years hence. Nevertheless you are human aka homo sapien at all points in your changing life and entitled to basic human rights throughout.  

Similarly the chicken is not the same at the various stages of its life but it is still a chicken Gallus gallus domesticus throughout each stage of its development and life.

Your problem is you want to take a portion of the homo sapiens species and arbitrary declare it non human based presumably on your personal desire to profit directly or indirectly via the scientific gains you feel the death and dismemberment of such individuals will afford you. That is wrong but you have somehow blinded yourself to that fact.

Ok, at least you understand that they are not the same.

So a fertilized human egg is not THE SAME as a human being, right?  Do you agree?