Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services

[BkkCoins]

You mention on your FAQ that the way to sell intangible products is to have the buyer state in the comments "Virtual goods recieved".

But if the buyer later tells Paypal that the product is Bitcoins and that is against there terms, is Paypal going to reverse the money, and then presumably shut down your account for TOS violation?

I'm just wondering if that works for most Virtual Goods but back fires with Bitcoins.

[virtualfaqs]

You mention on your FAQ that the way to sell intangible products is to have the buyer state in the comments "Virtual goods recieved".

But if the buyer later tells Paypal that the product is Bitcoins and that is against there terms, is Paypal going to reverse the money, and then presumably shut down your account for TOS violation?

I'm just wondering if that works for most Virtual Goods but back fires with Bitcoins.

That I don't know for sure. But there's no way to prove the transaction was for BTC or anything else. Also PayPal has not formally made an announcement that BTC is against their Terms of Service. I still feel the currency clause in the ToS applies to normal fiat currency and not BTC. PayPal is only banning big dealers as far as I know. Unless there's other evidence proving otherwise that I missed.

You have the power to not deliver your BTC until you're completely satisfied with your buyer. This can consist of asking for emails confirming the buyer is NOT buying BTC, PayPal comments stating the same thing, opening a dispute and closing it "to show your buyer is satisfied after receiving the virtual goods all of a sudden."

I would worry more about a credit card chargeback than PayPal stopping you.

[BTCrow]

Also PayPal has not formally made an announcement that BTC is against their Terms of Service. I still feel the currency clause in the ToS applies to normal fiat currency and not BTC.

Is WMZ is a fiat currency ?
Is LR money is a fiat currency ?
...
etc etc.

Of course they are not. But with experience I can say that if you trade those for another "virtual currency" and they catch you doing so you'll get suspended at least.

ref: https://cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full&locale.x=en_US

Prohibited Activities > article 3

(f), are associated with the following Money Service Business activities: the sale of traveler’s checks or money orders, currency exchanges or check cashing,or (g) provide certain credit repair or debt settlement services

They will quote you that point in order to justify the suspension.

[mizike29]

I have had no problems with ebay, or paypal and have sold plenty of bitcoins that way.  I offer a paperclip and 3 free bitcoins or paperclip and 1 bitcoin.  I have even listed just a bitcoin now that ebay has given up on kicking your auction off.  I dont think PAYPAL cares, ebay had an issue with it, but paypal I just have the people send money as a gift, which avoids the fees and I send the bitcoins.  I use ebay just to verify the buyer and show good feedback and or a good forum rep.  Chargebacks are the biggest thing to worry about, but as long as your not selling 1000s of dollars of BTC at one time, theres not too much risk.  I have had all my ebay buyers post positive feedback and that the BTC had been received, then send the bitcoins with confirmation if I feel that the buyer might be shady.  But so far 100s of BTC sold on ebay and or just using paypal, I have had no problems, but there is always a risk.  Dwolla would be the better option, but most dont use that, and chargebacks can still be an issue but not in the same way as paypal.  Just be smart, careful, research what you are doing and who you are doing it with and I think you will be fine until Paypal really takes an issue with it.

[virtualfaqs]

I offer a paperclip and 3 free bitcoins or paperclip and 1 bitcoin.

I don't think you're allowed to offer free stuff on eBay. It's misleading because it's not free since people are still bidding on it. Also because it circumvents rules which is why you're doing it in the first place usually. But I'm happy you're having so much luck on eBay.

[Houdini]

I have had no problems with ebay, or paypal and have sold plenty of bitcoins that way.

One of these days PayPal will notice you and your account will be frozen.
You can trade on the forum by PayPal if people don't mention bitcoins in the payment description, but if you're selling bitcoins on eBay and people pay for them by PayPal it's undeniable, and they don't tolerate bitcoins.
And as far as I know eBay doesn't allow bitcoin sales either since recently...
I wouldn't like to risk my PayPal or my eBay account. Took too much time to get both to where they are...

[mizike29]

There have been plenty of bitcoin sales going on in ebay with no problems.  At the very beginning they were just closing your auction if you had just a bitcoin in it, so I did the paperclip thing, but now everyone is selling them on there and they are listed as bitcoins, nothing else.  There selling .5 of a bitcoin,  1 bitcoin, and a couple of larger sales, theres 2 pages of listings for bitcoins for the past couple of weeks with no issues.  I think they have gotten over that now lol

Paypal does not have any problems with bitcoins that I have seen at all, ebay did, but now they are also having no issues with them, plenty of sales going through ebay.  You can offer free stuff on ebay, people do it all the time, my daughter will get a bear with three free virtual codes, or a pair of glasses with a free necklace, it happens all the time on ebay.

Yes there is a risk, and always will be, but paypal will have to be used to get bitcoin out there to more people, and ebay is a great avenue for that.  Just go on ebay now and type in BITCOIN you will see plenty of bitcion auctions.

[Houdini]

Just go on ebay now and type in BITCOIN you will see plenty of bitcion auctions.

I have seen them, but I don't know how many have been removed. I read here on this forum they started removing bitcoin auctions, maybe they've stopped that practice, I don't know.

Paypal does not have any problems with bitcoins that I have seen at all

ANY PROBLEMS Haven't you heard people's accounts have been frozen because of trading with bitcoins ? Trading in any virtual currency is against their Terms of Service apparently, but I think it's more a matter of competition. I even heard they have some kind of associated-guilt-web where you're guilty if you've just traded with someone they know trades in bitcoins (because you might have traded bitcoins with him and not mentioned it in the payment description). They're really faschistic about it...
If they froze my account it would be pretty hard to open another since they have my personal data...

[mizike29]

I havent so far, maybe I have just been lucky, I mean they know its bitcoins, just look on ebay at all the bitcoin sales, all those people are selling using paypal, I wouldnt think they would sell if people were having such a problem.  Ive sold about a 100 coins so far using paypal, and many as a gift with a wallet address but no mention of bticoins, but my straight ebay sales have all been through ebay and paypal, no frozen accounts.  Worst I have heard is people paying with paypal then backing out doing chargebacks or something, but many seem to have success on ebay as theres a couple pages consistently of bitcoin sales. I think in the begininig they were trying to stop it or clamp down but now they have seemed to embrace it, they make money off of it, so I wouldnt think they would stop anything they can make money off of unless it starts costing them.

People sell other virtual items on ebay and paypal all the time too, virtual codes to build a bear pets, online gaming codes, software codes, so bitcoin is definitely not the firs virtual type item on ebay or paypal.  I think they just didnt know how to handle it at first, but all seems fine now, unless someone posts that they recently within the past month have had a problem.

[mc_lovin]

I've gotten burned like 100% of the time selling bitcoin on ebay using paypal.  This is what your account will end up looking like if you sell BTC to people using paypal.

[Houdini]

I've gotten burned like 100% of the time selling bitcoin on ebay using paypal.  This is what your account will end up looking like if you sell BTC to people using paypal.

Man that's really horrible ! 

[mizike29]

No it wont, it must be happening for some strange reason to a very small percentage because theres plenty of sales and myself and three other friends have used it for months with no problems.  Guess I knock on wood lol    YEAH from looking at that one post, it was mostly german and you got scammed.  Most of us have verified our buyers through the forum and then ebay IDs and feedback, and have not had an issue with scams or chargebacks, you can look at mine and i have nothing but positive feedback on all my bitcoin sales, no iissue and I know a couple others, and theres plenty of people still selling on there, so sounds like a couple might get hustled, it happens.  Gotta do your research, go with your gut and have feedback, user verification to be safe with paypal, alertpay or anything that can be reversed.  This is some of mine from just this month, and all good feedback no issues.

Totals
   
Edit display properties of Totals container
Selling totals
Current
Listed   2
Will sell   0
Bids   0
Amount   $0.00
   
   
Sold (last 60 days)
Listed   13
Sold   13
Amount   $402.38
   
   
Payments (last 60 days)
Received
   
$362.38
Not received
   
$40.00
Total sales:
   
$402.38
Shortcuts
   

            Price   Sale Date   Checkout complete or not   Paid or not   Item shipped or not   Feedback left or not   Feedback received or not   Actions
.5 of a bitcoin for auction   Auction   
.5 of a bitcoin for auction

Member id pokerpuppy222 ( Feedback Score Of 18Yellow star icon for feedback score in between 10 to 49)
100.0%
Tracking number: [Add]
Watch Count: 1
   

$7.00
   

08/04/11
   
Checkout complete
   
Paid with PayPal on August 04, 2011.
   
Positive feedback received
   
                               
.5 of a bitcoin for auction   Auction   
.5 of a bitcoin for auction

Member id miquelcollado ( Feedback Score Of 5 )
100.0%
Tracking number: [Add]
Watch Count: 1
   

$7.00
   

07/31/11
   
Checkout complete
   
Paid with PayPal on August 01, 2011.
   
Feedback not left
   
Positive feedback received
   
        
eBay Note: You relisted this item.
eBay Note: The buyer left you a note about this purchase. You can view it on the order details page.
                               
paperclip and 3 free bitcoins   Auction   
paperclip and 3 free bitcoins

Member id scottymak ( Feedback Score Of 15Yellow star icon for feedback score in between 10 to 49)
100.0%
Tracking number: [Add]
Watch Count: 1
   

$40.00
   

07/30/11
   
Checkout complete
   
Paid with PayPal on July 30, 2011.
   
Shipped 07/30/11
      
Positive feedback received
   
Sell similar
More actions
        
eBay Note: The buyer left you a note about this purchase. You can view it on the order details page.
                               
.5 of a bitcoin for auction   Auction   
.5 of a bitcoin for auction

Member id adamwro79 ( Feedback Score Of 7 )
100.0%
Tracking number: [Add]
Watch Count: 0
   

$7.50
   

07/26/11
   
Checkout complete
   
Paid with PayPal on July 26, 2011.
   
Shipped 07/28/11
      
Positive feedback received
   
        
eBay Note: You relisted this item.
eBay Note: The buyer left you a note about this purchase. You can view it on the order details page.
                               
1 Bitcoin    Auction   
1 Bitcoin

Member id ksmith8901 ( Feedback Score Of 20Yellow star icon for feedback score in between 10 to 49)
100.0%
Tracking number: [Add]
Watch Count: 1
   

$16.50
   

07/24/11
   
Checkout complete
   
Paid with PayPal on July 24, 2011.
   
Shipped 07/28/11
   

Watch Count: 0

[PowerChaos]

you can not protect from beein scammed by ebay

reason is easy , ebay is not for virtual goods , so you need to have a lot of proof to be not be scammed

but to go back to paypal
if you want to protect from chargebacks with bitcoins is it kinda easy to provide proof

in my case i sell vps servers , it is a virtual thing to and i got a few cases that the user is doing a chargeback
so far it never worked , i basicly just ignore it and it still doesnt get charged back

reason is simple , you need to say to paypal that it is a virtual good and that it can not be sended , in my case i got a billing system that confirms the goods/payments
but depending on the reason they provide does i need to reply and point to the virtual goods or just ignore it

same with bitcoin
say to paypal that it is virtual goods and show them the blockexplorer or so and try to explain them that it is a virtual good , so it is not possible to provide good proof of it

then in most cases you still win , depending on your account to (personal/premium or business) and the documents you got on it ( trustworthiness )

then for rule to clean your paypal account every XX time you got a payment

do not do that ... it doesnt give a feeling of trust ... and paypal locks your account in red if you do it ( like -150$)
that gives problems to for all other kind of transactions that got your ip/account or any other kind of info they can find that possible match your account

so yes , it is hard to protect , but it depends how you can handle those stuff and what reason they provide

the only thing you can not protect from is creditcard fraude ... they get always charged back after 7 days (if it is creditcard fraude )

Greets From PowerChaos

[mizike29]

THe way you protect yourself with ebay, paypal, and bitcoins is doing your research.  Getting the right feedback, proof of user, forum posts and who the buyer is.  If your selling to someone on ebay that has a 90 percent good feedback, of 80 or higher, the user is confirmed and is on a forum, they send you an email through the forum and through the ebay ID to show proof it is that user, and your pretty protected.  NOT FROM AN ACTUAL CHARGEBACK,  your protected on having a good solid sale with no issues.  I ALSO HAVE THE FEEDBACK sent through ebay stating from the user and myself that the user paid, and it is confirmed sent and received by both buyer and seller.  You cant charge that back from paypal after positive feedback and confirmed recieving it, pretty tough.   SO NO THERE IS NO WAY TO GUARANTEE YOU WONT GET A CHARGEBACK OR GET SCAMMED, but you run that risk with plenty of things, even normal items on ebay, so do your homework, and you should be fine. 

I always do a small order, get confirmations, get forum information etc, and so far so good for 1000s of dollars.

[mc_lovin]

How to avoid being scammed by selling through eBay?

Just absolutely don't sell through eBay.  It's not worth the hassle.  First of all, your fees are astronautical. Sure people pay more per BTC because they probably can't get the BTC somewhere else, but the final value fees, paypal fees, and eBay listing fees are a nightmare when you add them all up.  Because after all, what you're trying to do is convert your BTC into $$, you might as well find an exchange somewhere and avoid paying a bunch of fees and *then* the guy does a chargeback.  Just my .02

[Bitcraft]

Paypal is way too risky.

[Juggernaut118]

Ebay removed my bitcoin auction.

Is this image copyrighted, or are they saying that the bitcoin it self is copyrighted?
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=bitcoin&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=B2i&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1600&bih=1109&tbm=isch&prmd=ivnsl&tbnid=nnfCSJ029G40ZM:&imgrefurl=http://bitcoinme.com/&docid=AVBNvcjWq7AuiM&w=225&h=225&ei=SyxqTuvmK87I0AHQxbCUBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=188&vpy=226&dur=3073&hovh=180&hovw=180&tx=89&ty=100&page=1&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&start=0&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

Your listing has been removed.




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[RunningTotal]

What's a point to trade BitCoins on eBay? It's risky since violates TOS, will most probably result to listing cancellation (e.g. loss of listing fees) and could possibly result to account suspension. What you get on other hand? - a Paypal payment from a person with, let's say 3k positive feedbacks. Does it mean this person has no intention to claim a rollback on the transaction later on? NO. Will you be hit by this rollback directly through PayPal? YES. Will you then, after counting losses, be able to post a negative feedback on the person you've dealt with? NO, since he/she'll most probably report your listing so it'd be cancelled becasue of TOS violation.

I'm not actually saying PayPal-BTC trading is evil. I'm just saying eBay is not the right place for it to happen.

[mizike29]

Ebay is the right place if it stays safe.  You make more money period, alot more.  Now its not really good because bitcoins are worthless now at 4 bux, then nothing make sense, but all my ebay sales have been fine.  I had one chargeback, but since I have followed all my rules, communicated through personal email to verify the purchase is legit and not a HACKED, or FRAUDULENT bid on bitcoins, I have not had an issue.  THe reason ebay is good is because people use it all the time and trust, paypal, ebay in general so its a huge marketplace that would be nice for bitcoin sellers to be able to use, but it is tough to trust people.  I could have been scammed 4 times, but didnt sent the bitcoins on 3 occasions because they didnt meet my requirements and security measures, those buyers did do chargebacks on others but I never sent my bitcoins to them. I only got burned the one time, but then learned how to work the system and protect myself, no issues after that.

[whothefuckareyou]

You could exchange in person...


http://btcnearme.com/



If you like my info, then please donate 0.20 - 0.25 btcs...    1EkJMigrxRKH1L9VdMwX1reCJ9LgCukTHH