Bitmain's Released Antminer S9, World's First 16nm Miner Ready to Order

[numnutz2009]

...im not sure why they refuse to add the ability to underclock the miner. i would think most people wouldnt/dont overclock their s7's-9's so removing the ability to underclock them is a bit confusing to me and i never really understood it.

Because they aren't meant to be for "home use". Since my automobile analogy flopped, I'll try one that's a closer parallel...

What you're talking about is akin to buying a rack server, wanting to put Windows XP on it, and use it for nothing more than using a browser for Facebook and email.

S9s aren't created to adjust to your home environment; you're meant to take the environment you run them and adjust it to them.

Would you buy an industrial pizza oven and ask why it doesn't have a setting to warm just 1 bagel?
Would you buy an industrial cement mixer and ask why it doesn't have a setting to mix just 1 cup of plaster?
Would you buy an jack-hammer and ask why it doesn't have a setting to drive a finish-nail into fine furniture?

noy true. the setting was built into the miner before and was removed. the miner runs a freq check to clock the miner to the max possible speeds those boards can handle so essentially the miner does the same exact thing to allowing the user to set a limit or an under clocked freq wouldn't add much to developing the firmware especially since most of what they use for firmware is stolen from other miner developers. I run miners in 2 locations with roof top dedicated ac units and those miners run at 100%. allowing people to under clock them when running at home will actually bring them MORE business because not everyone has a setup like mine or others and are forced to run them at home or not at all. cutting out an entire market isnt smart for any business especially when its the market that created said company. do u think bitmain would be ne thing if home miners didnt buy their hardware?

I get your comparisons i really do but the devices you listed have issues....a pizza oven is large so cooking something small isnt practical....a cement mixer is the same way....buying a server....well idk what your point there is people use servers as home PC's all the time for whatever reason. most dont install win 7 and so on on it because the hardware is designed for server os's but some can handle non server os just fine and have drivers added to it. some people like having the best of the best for whatever reason even if they dont need it. but even with all the items you listed your forgetting 1 things....they all have flexibility when it comes to how it gets used. can you tell me where the s9 flexibility is?? i dont recall you listing any of that in your reply.

if we went by your logic that would mean someone that buys a truck can only use it to haul stuff and not as a daily driver....people buying a mac can only use it to do video editing and pic editing.....people with an xbox one can only play xbox one games....well last i checked 360 games work on the xbox one. now why is that?? its called FLEXIBILITY. no condition is ever 100% the same no matter how perfect it is there are always going to be variations and regular manufacturers dont limit their devices to 1 and only 1 use. can a carrot peeler also be used on a potato or even an apple or what about a cucumber?? next time dont be so rigid with your thinking. you will end up hitting a brick wall later on down the road and unless you change your views on stuff you wont ever get around it.

[ComputerGenie]

noy true. the setting was built into the miner before and was removed...

Yes, there are software remnants for the old versions of CGMiner... Imagine that, the newest versions of the ASIC software are less like the PC version that let you mine with a CPU; who'da thunk it?  

...if we went by your logic that would mean someone that buys a truck can only use it to haul stuff and not as a daily driver

Because it makes sense to use this to go to the grocery store (and no place else) every day:

[VTdude12]

To get away from the pizza oven talk for a second... 

What is everyone's strategy around rebooting S9's?  Is it "best practice" to reboot them on some sort of schedule or only do so when you experience issues?

Thanks!

[ComputerGenie]

To get away from the pizza oven talk for a second... 

What is everyone's strategy around rebooting S9's?  Is it "best practice" to reboot them on some sort of schedule or only do so when you experience issues?

Thanks!

I reboot mine every 14-30 days for cleaning purposes (depending on the season); for "home users", I'd suggest for every 2-3 months cleaning and/or only when issues.

[VTdude12]

To get away from the pizza oven talk for a second... 

What is everyone's strategy around rebooting S9's?  Is it "best practice" to reboot them on some sort of schedule or only do so when you experience issues?

Thanks!

I reboot mine every 14-30 days for cleaning purposes (depending on the season); for "home users", I'd suggest for every 2-3 months cleaning and/or only when issues.

Thanks for the info!  I am a home miner and that is exactly what I had planned to do (~3 month cleaning cycles).

One more question for the board...

What about firmware updates?  Is the consensus to update anytime there is a new one?  Wait X amount of time for any issues with a new firmware to bubble to the surface?  Or only do it if your miner has issues?

[ComputerGenie]

...
What about firmware updates?  Is the consensus to update anytime there is a new one?  Wait X amount of time for any issues with a new firmware to bubble to the surface?  Or only do it if your miner has issues?

Unless you know of (and want) any new features in a new firmware; have some existing issue that new firmware fixes; or just want to "test it out", never update any hardware firmware "just because it exists".

In a text-based forum, there literally aren't enough ways to stress what a bad idea it is to flash a piece of hardware with a firmware you don't know about (not to mention the fact that more than 1 company has created a firmware update that, once installed, renders going back to older versions impossible).

[VTdude12]

Thank you for reaffirming my thoughts!

[numnutz2009]

noy true. the setting was built into the miner before and was removed...

Yes, there are software remnants for the old versions of CGMiner... Imagine that, the newest versions of the ASIC software are less like the PC version that let you mine with a CPU; who'da thunk it?  

...if we went by your logic that would mean someone that buys a truck can only use it to haul stuff and not as a daily driver

Because it makes sense to use this to go to the grocery store (and no place else) every day:

so basically your saying if the possibility is there we shouldnt and have no right to want the features that we have had up to this point. im not talkin about different versions of miners either...s9's have had freq control since day 1 of their release bitmain just took the ability to manually set it away. if bitmain took the ability away do you think its hard to add the ability back? if they coded everything they use 100% fresh then i can be more accepting of them controlling their firmware but since barely anything related to their firmware actually belongs to them its hard to agree with you buddy. ontop of that you have other seasoned miners saying the same thing im saying but your right....simply because you provide wild comparisons that arent even in the realm of what is practical. whats next?? using a rocket to travel overseas instead of flying in an airplane?! be more serious with your replies.

there u go bein rigid again buddy. u would think someone with the username computergenie would know things arent as rigid as ur making them out to be but its fine if you want to continue thinking that way. just as long as you are ready to accept that nearly every product and device can and will be used in more than one way without you freakin out with smoke comin from your ears. the world isnt black and white so please learn to understand that in the future. this is a good first step.

[ComputerGenie]

so basically your saying if the possibility is there we shouldnt and have no right to want the features that we have had up to this point. im not talkin about different versions of miners either...s9's have had freq control since day 1 of their release bitmain just took the ability to manually set it away. if bitmain took the ability away do you think its hard to add the ability back? ....

There's literally no part of that which is true. Either you purchased a new model machine which is configured differently than older models or one random day you decided to change the software. Bitmain didn't take control of your older model and force an update onto it.

[HagssFIN]

so basically your saying if the possibility is there we shouldnt and have no right to want the features that we have had up to this point. im not talkin about different versions of miners either...s9's have had freq control since day 1 of their release bitmain just took the ability to manually set it away. if bitmain took the ability away do you think its hard to add the ability back? ....

There's literally no part of that which is true. Either you purchased a new model machine which is configured differently than older models or one random day you decided to change the software. Bitmain didn't take control of your older model and force an update onto it.

Yeah, but taking off some features is a shitty thing to do. Kind of like what Sony made with the Playstation 3 back in the days.

[ComputerGenie]

Yeah, but taking off some features is a shitty thing to do. Kind of like what Sony made with the Playstation 3 back in the days.

Attention: do not use this fw on old S9 miners with fixed frequency. If miner works all right, the upgrade process with this fw is not recommended.

Edit: Not to mention that PS3 is a gaming console designed for home use, whereas the S9 isn't either of those things.

[HagssFIN]

Yeah, but taking off some features is a shitty thing to do. Kind of like what Sony made with the Playstation 3 back in the days.

Attention: do not use this fw on old S9 miners with fixed frequency. If miner works all right, the upgrade process with this fw is not recommended.

Edit: Not to mention that PS3 is a gaming console designed for home use, whereas the S9 isn't either of those things.

Well your explanation doesn't make Bitmain's decision about dropping features less shitty in my opinion.

And I'm not comparing a gaming console with a miner, it was just an example to give the idea what I'm meaning.

[ComputerGenie]

Well your explanation doesn't make Bitmain's decision about dropping features less shitty in my opinion.

And I'm not comparing a gaming console with a miner, it was just an example to give the idea what I'm meaning.

Most people complaining about the new auto firmware fall into 2 groups:
1) Home users who decided to put it on their older rigs.
2) Home users who bought a new model S9 that has optimal frequency programmed per chip.

For group 1, the older firmware is still available (provided they haven't installed the newest version [V3] which Bitmain, literally, told them not to install).
For group 2, there is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment (which is tested and proven to work as optimally as possible) and want to turn it into something else.

I do understand that people want to get started and are trying to balance buying a high performance piece of equipment with personal environments. That being said, what Bitmain is doing, and it's their job to do so, is creating equipment that has the highest yield possible. Every ~14 days, every S9 has less and less yield; that is an inescapable fact of mining. Being mad at a company because they aren't producing new machines that allow you to reduce ROI, when ROI is self reducing already, is just bonkers.

[bitsink]

Well your explanation doesn't make Bitmain's decision about dropping features less shitty in my opinion.

And I'm not comparing a gaming console with a miner, it was just an example to give the idea what I'm meaning.

Most people complaining about the new auto firmware fall into 2 groups:
1) Home users who decided to put it on their older rigs.
2) Home users who bought a new model S9 that has optimal frequency programmed per chip.

For group 1, the older firmware is still available (provided they haven't installed the newest version [V3] which Bitmain, literally, told them not to install).
For group 2, there is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment (which is tested and proven to work as optimally as possible) and want to turn it into something else.

I do understand that people want to get started and are trying to balance buying a high performance piece of equipment with personal environments. That being said, what Bitmain is doing, and it's their job to do so, is creating equipment that has the highest yield possible. Every ~14 days, every S9 has less and less yield; that is an inescapable fact of mining. Being mad at a company because they aren't producing new machines that allow you to reduce ROI, when ROI is self reducing already, is just bonkers.

Pizza ovens and trucks ? It boils down to choices - customer choice. Has anyone actually asked bitmain about this?

[ComputerGenie]

Pizza ovens and trucks ?

OK, no more analogies ....
Don't buy a professional grade miner to use at home and cry because it's not some damn hobbyist toy!

[HagssFIN]

This is not about who is a hobby miner or who is crying.
Even if I would have a industrial grade mining farm, I would consider dropping features off not so nice thing to do.
There should be some kind of control ability even in the newest models.

[ComputerGenie]

....
Even if I would have a industrial grade mining farm, I would consider dropping features off not so nice thing to do...

If you under-clocked all of your rigs, you would go bankrupt and your backers would be pissed (and likely sue you). There is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment and making it less profitable, and there's even less of a reason to do it with multiple rigs in a full-sized farm.

[philipma1957]

....
Even if I would have a industrial grade mining farm, I would consider dropping features off not so nice thing to do...

If you under-clocked all of your rigs, you would go bankrupt and your backers would be pissed (and likely sue you). There is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment and making it less profitable, and there's even less of a reason to do it with multiple rigs in a full-sized farm.

the bold part is correct.


but the first part is wrong.

Enough Free power in a space  to run 50th.

 1 cavat   can't be loud.



So 5 older s-9's clocked to 10th works in that space.

4 new s-9's  balls to the wall auto clock don't work in that space.


Just say  I am correct  about this and you are partly wrong.

waiting  for you to admit the error of your statement.

more so  I happen to have a space  exactly like I describe  so it is not a theory.

I run 3 and ⅓  old s-9s in it and 3 avalon 721's.  about 53th

 And all this gear will roi if it does not break.

Your pretty smart,  but you come across as a  very arrogant person at times.

to further explain myself the s-9's were available and the r4 did not exist.

  Even now the r4's break too often.  heck mine broke a month ago in a climate controlled spot.   using autotune.

[Swimmer63]

....
Even if I would have a industrial grade mining farm, I would consider dropping features off not so nice thing to do...

If you under-clocked all of your rigs, you would go bankrupt and your backers would be pissed (and likely sue you). There is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment and making it less profitable, and there's even less of a reason to do it with multiple rigs in a full-sized farm.

Again - right now you are correct.  No one should buy an S9 needing to underclock it.  Buy something else.  BUT - and I will say this again.  This is the first antminer that will not be able to be underclocked a year from now or whenever they are marginally profitable at full speed.  Is it a reason to not buy the miner now? Of course not.  But for people who have been mining for years and are used to the relatively short profitable life of a miner, being able to underclock them did extend their useful life.  That won't work with these S9s.  At least no one has tried yet because it's not worth bricking a miner.

To those lamenting about a feature being dropped by Bitmain.  I believe Bitmain's view is they are making the miner better right now, while profitable and that over rides any concern about underclocking when they get old.
 
Additionally, when these miners came out they were so far and away more efficient than previous miners that their useful life has already surpassed their predecessors.  I think the S9 will end up being the longest, profitably running miner since bitcoin really took off.
So you might have lost a feature, but this miner's useful life will be double to triple that of any of the prior Antminers.  So it's really not worth complaining about.

[philipma1957]

....
Even if I would have a industrial grade mining farm, I would consider dropping features off not so nice thing to do...

If you under-clocked all of your rigs, you would go bankrupt and your backers would be pissed (and likely sue you). There is no practical reason to purchase a $1,500 piece of equipment and making it less profitable, and there's even less of a reason to do it with multiple rigs in a full-sized farm.

Again - right now you are correct.  No one should buy an S9 needing to underclock it.  Buy something else.  BUT - and I will say this again.  This is the first antminer that will not be able to be underclocked a year from now or whenever they are marginally profitable at full speed.  Is it a reason to not buy the miner now? Of course not.  But for people who have been mining for years and are used to the relatively short profitable life of a miner, being able to underclock them did extend their useful life.  That won't work with these S9s.  At least no one has tried yet because it's not worth bricking a miner.

To those lamenting about a feature being dropped by Bitmain.  I believe Bitmain's view is they are making the miner better right now, while profitable and that over rides any concern about underclocking when they get old.
 
Additionally, when these miners came out they were so far and away more efficient than previous miners that their useful life has already surpassed their predecessors.  I think the S9 will end up being the longest, profitably running miner since bitcoin really took off.
So you might have lost a feature, but this miner's useful life will be double to triple that of any of the prior Antminers.  So it's really not worth complaining about.

only if you have free power and a 30 amp  pdu giving 22-24 amps.

with a need for quiet would you be wrong.

thing is the s9 started as  a down clock able miner.  the problem is when it turned into auto clock the transition was handle very poorly.