Bitmain's Released Antminer S9, World's First 16nm Miner Ready to Order

[Swimmer63]

Obviously people want the ability back to underclock. I've been mining for nearly 6 years now. It is extremely useful in so many scenarios. It makes 0 sense and is incredibly short sighted to defend removal of the feature.

True, it's very shortsighted of them to not cater to the wants of < 1% of their consumer base.  What are these people thinking by gearing their software towards the needs of those that buy 500-1,000 units at a time? 

How did you determine less than 1% of Antminer owners have underclocked their units?

[philipma1957]

Obviously people want the ability back to underclock. I've been mining for nearly 6 years now. It is extremely useful in so many scenarios. It makes 0 sense and is incredibly short sighted to defend removal of the feature.

True, it's very shortsighted of them to not cater to the wants of < 1% of their consumer base.  What are these people thinking by gearing their software towards the needs of those that buy 500-1,000 units at a time? 

How did you determine less than 1% of Antminer owners have underclocked their units?

He is a Genie so he used his powers to find the %😀

[ComputerGenie]

How did you determine less than 1% of Antminer owners have underclocked their units?

I said less than 1%, based on the sales of enough units to comprise > 1 EH/s and extrapolating the number of people willing to drop $1,500 per unit for a negative ROI...

[beltsniffer]

.... But, you ignored the rest of what I said.

Since they are going to sell to us, they should at least make they attempt to give us some of what we want.

Fortunately there are other options, though not as efficient.

If they want to sell to us PITA small miners, they need to address our concerns too. Which would include the ability to adjust the miner to suit our wants/needs.

Yes, I did ignore it because it's wrong. The "PITA small miners" (your words) are a small enough market to not justify the software costs of running multiple versions of code. Any profits from "PITA small miners" become eaten up in the long run by the dev costs to do so.

I know they are my words. I was having fun with it. I don't take this stuff that seriously. And a lot of times we are a PITA. But in the end, we can all debate this until we are blue in the face, but Bitmain will do what they perceive to be in their best interest.

As I said:

If you do not want to use that enterprise product in an enterprise environment, then it's on you to create a "solution" for your non-enterprise environment, not the enterprise product manufacture.

P.S. The market is such they don't have to appeal to what you want, because they already have the product you want/need.

I still disagree with your point.

I think there are enough small miners out there that it does make a difference to Bitmain. If not, they wouldn't continue to sell to us. Take a look at just about any pool, the split between large and small miners.
Kano has about 5-6 miners over 1ph in gear with about 13ph out of his total 26
Slush has about 30 miners over 1ph with about 130ph out his 210
That's just a couple of pools, but I would be willing to bet it holds just as true on Antpool or F2Pool.

That's still a lot of gear going to smaller miners.

[VRobb]

OMG just put computerweenie on ignore already and kill this bitchfest...  I did ages ago 

[ComputerGenie]

I think there are enough small miners out there that it does make a difference to Bitmain. If not, they wouldn't continue to sell to us. Take a look at just about any pool, the split between large and small miners.
Kano has about 5-6 miners over 1ph in gear with about 13ph out of his total 26
Slush has about 30 miners over 1ph with about 130ph out his 210
That's just a couple of pools, but I would be willing to bet it holds just as true on Antpool or F2Pool.

That's still a lot of gear going to smaller miners.

And your data to back up that people want to underclock more than 140 PH worth of miners is.....

[philipma1957]

How did you determine less than 1% of Antminer owners have underclocked their units?

I said less than 1%, based on the sales of enough units to comprise > 1 EH/s and extrapolating the number of people willing to drop $1,500 per unit for a negative ROI...

Want data


well here is f2pool payouts. for 3-14-2017


https://blockchain.info/tx/3a1517b8ed9c083f5dbbd4639daecdfe0a67dd0b42d6e55100f1c9f4785a7c98

.01  to .02

that would be 18.34 th to 36.7 th  so that is and average of 27th  x 850 =22.95 ph

so do 0.00 to .01  payouts which would be 0 to 18th or a 9 th average

and do 0.02 to 0.03 payouts which would be 36 to 54 th

and on f2pool you are pushing  an easy 60ph

With miners having four or less s-9s

I would argue that 8 or less s-9s is still small

Which gets you over 100 ph on f2pool alone

Code:

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3HhN7BJYW6GDNasU33orhrYDE4YpvsWk7S - (Unspent) 0.01013473 BTC
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199Cz24WLqWWdV3C6maCS83mqYUsLeNdHp - (Spent) 0.01010363 BTC---------------------840

17fiUScLfWKWydBtjHeyYBpRJDw3jNgyo2 - (Unspent) 0.01009175 BTC
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1Lv89VjsudtqwTjQoAivhP1SyNUC4H946f - (Spent) 0.01002205 BTC-----------850

[aarons6]

I think there are enough small miners out there that it does make a difference to Bitmain. If not, they wouldn't continue to sell to us. Take a look at just about any pool, the split between large and small miners.
Kano has about 5-6 miners over 1ph in gear with about 13ph out of his total 26
Slush has about 30 miners over 1ph with about 130ph out his 210
That's just a couple of pools, but I would be willing to bet it holds just as true on Antpool or F2Pool.

That's still a lot of gear going to smaller miners.

And your data to back up that people want to underclock more than 140 PH worth of miners is.....

most of the reasons why you would undercock miners have already been stated..
the main reason is so people like me can run them off 110v power with only 1 20a outlet..

[beltsniffer]

OMG just put computerweenie on ignore already and kill this bitchfest...  I did ages ago 

I know. It almost reminds me of the old usenet alt.flame days, just more civil. 
Sometimes you just need a break from reality for a minute.

[philipma1957]

OMG just put computerweenie on ignore already and kill this bitchfest...  I did ages ago 

I know. It almost reminds me of the old usenet alt.flame days, just more civil. 
Sometimes you just need a break from reality for a minute.

nah  i like fighting him better then yelling at the kids or the wife.

maybe his posts help his anger issues.

[ComputerGenie]

...maybe his posts help his anger issues.

I don't have anger issues; I do, however, have issues when it comes to self-entitled idiots posting dumb things....

[philipma1957]

...maybe his posts help his anger issues.

I don't have anger issues; I do, however, have issues when it comes to self-entitled idiots posting dumb things....

Oh issues with yourself then


Back to the fight

 I gave you a lot of proof that  there are 1000's of small miners on f2pool.

Which is why


bitmain still sells to small miners

as it is 1000s of s9s and r4s

[ComputerGenie]

...Back to the fight

 I gave you a lot of proof that  there are 1000's of small miners on f2pool...

Evidence that there are x amount of small miners is not evidence that there is y amount of miners that want to reduce their own ROI even further by underclocking; you're conflating 2 separate things....

[numnutz2009]

...maybe his posts help his anger issues.

I don't have anger issues; I do, however, have issues when it comes to self-entitled idiots posting dumb things....

whoaaaa even i have to post on this comment (sorry for the delay kiddo...the east coast got hit with a snow storm and i cant bring myself to reply to ignorance on my free time when at home).

1. idk y ur being rude to philip. i dont recall ever seeing a rude thing said by him to anyone...i obviously didnt check all the posts he has made but it seems a little messed up to insult someone that took the time to post facts for u.

2. yes we r self entitled but at the same time we arent. like others said these features have been around for 6 years....its nothing that is new or recently added....in fact the removal is new and recent and wasnt needed at all actually. they could have edited the firmware to not allow overclocking but to allow underclocking. as easily as they were able to add the list of freq's....its even easier to not add freqs to the list. in fact adding the freqs would probably make the firmware process easier because they dont have to reproduce the firmware for each version of the auto freq miner so by not letting the user set the freq they ultimately created MORE work for themselves. but ur a smart guy....u already thought about that huh??

3. like others said the r4 is marketed to home miners....but that doesnt have manual freqs either....so what exactly is your reasoning there? they were advertised as home miners yet the customization you claim should only be available to home miners is somehow not available for those home mining machines. but this post isnt about the r4...imma stick with talking about the s9....did you buy your s9?? ik i bought all of mine....every last one of them. because i bought them i feel i am entitled to features that were there and can be added back....there is no reason they cant set a freq ceiling setting for autotune miners. not only that but since i bought my miner im also entirled to mine however i want. if i want to turn the fucker on and let it hash locally until the thing dies a year from now not making me a single cent that is what i will do. its my choice not yours or bitmains. the freq was our choice as well until they removed it to make things easier but people familiar with their miners are annoyed with that including me and this feature needs to be brought back.

4. like i said i only have 1 s9 running in my house and thats because its cold as balls. i have s7's underclocked and being used as space heaters in rooms so they are quiet and make money that would otherwise be wasted on an actual space heater. but the majority of my miners are run in 2 locations (again i purchased every single one and no investors are here to help me out with the huge ass bill buying all these s9's) with roof top sc units. the question i have for you is have you ever had an industrial ac unit die?? well a year ago or so the chiller on the roof had a pump fail which left the cooling running at half power. if i had all autotune s9's i wouldnt have been able to lower to freq to compensate for the half cooling i was getting until the pump got replaced. but because i had s7's i was able to remote in an drop the freqs down and make sure the temps were good while the repairs were going for a couple of days. so yes the manual freq option is good to have for ALL versions not just pre autotune miners which i might add arent made anymore. this is coming from a non home miner. if i didnt have manual freq i would have to drive to the offices and turn off the miners which takes time and money to do and i would have had to drive back to flip them back on to start mining. this way i had 0 downtime and only a few minutes of lost time logging in and changing the freqs for the miners.

your entitled to your own opinion sweety....in the end what you say doesnt reflect what the community is saying. not just me...not just respected members of this forum....randos pros amateurs and everything in between have said this about the post autotune miners. u say they dont care what we think...they make miners for themselves and dont care if we like them or not but if that was the case y do u think they sell us miners to begin with?? because they are bein nice to us?? nope! they sell them to us at a price that is higher than what they will make with them. they pay alot less to produce these things and can only imagine how low their roi times r with these miners but one thing im certain about is they dont do this to help us out....they do it because we pay alot more than what the machine will bring them and thats an upfront payment too not a payment that comes in staggered like bitcoin mining payments. $1500 cash upfront sounds a whole lot better than $1500 over 8 months doesnt it??

[ComputerGenie]

...[blibityblablabla]...

1) Not sure where I was "being rude"; but, even if I was, so what? I'm quite certain that philipma was well aware of my general demeanor before choosing to address me or "jump into the fray" of this conversation.

2) The new models of S9s are not the same equipment as 6 years ago (especially since Bitmain started in 2013). The newer software represents a newer hardware. It's really that simple.

3) I bought every one of my S9s to earn the most amount of BTC possible for the least amount of investment. In the adult world, we call this ROI (Return On Investment).

3 1/2) You fail to grasp the basics of how hardware/firmware works. You don't just "turn on" hardware, expect it to work differently than designed, and blame the manufacture because it works as designed. There are actual physical limiting factors as to why the newest boards work the way they do, and there are software requirements that coincide with those limiting factors. Now, if you wanted to debate the merits of a company installing a chip that can only run @ 420M on the same board as one that also has a chip that can only run @ 320M and a chip that can run @ 720M, then you might broach a topic that we can agree on.

4) If you bought the most powerful, most energy efficient miner on the planet because you wanted a $1,500 space heater that would earn you back $50, that's on you not on the company producing the most powerful, most energy efficient miner on the planet.

4 1/2) Unless you're situated in Death Valley or Al-Aziziyah, if you are using "an industrial ac unit" for the amount of miners that it takes you "only a few minutes ... changing the freqs for the miners", you have no concept of air flow and/or ROI.


Your "extra":
The "community" you refer to that want's to reduce their own ROI represents a handful for the tens of thousands of units sold. I've yet to see 1 "pro" that you refer to, who has both an understanding of electronics and ROI, that wants the ability to underclock units that come from the factory "preset" to an "optimal level" per-chip....

[numnutz2009]

...[blibityblablabla]...

1) Not sure where I was "being rude"; but, even if I was, so what? I'm quite certain that philipma was well aware of my general demeanor before choosing to address me or "jump into the fray" of this conversation.

2) The new models of S9s are not the same equipment as 6 years ago (especially since Bitmain started in 2013). The newer software represents a newer hardware. It's really that simple.

3) I bought every one of my S9s to earn the most amount of BTC possible for the least amount of investment. In the adult world, we call this ROI (Return On Investment).

3 1/2) You fail to grasp the basics of how hardware/firmware works. You don't just "turn on" hardware, expect it to work differently than designed, and blame the manufacture because it works as designed. There are actual physical limiting factors as to why the newest boards work the way they do, and there are software requirements that coincide with those limiting factors. Now, if you wanted to debate the merits of a company installing a chip that can only run @ 420M on the same board as one that also has a chip that can only run @ 320M and a chip that can run @ 720M, then you might broach a topic that we can agree on.

4) If you bought the most powerful, most energy efficient miner on the planet because you wanted a $1,500 space heater that would earn you back $50, that's on you not on the company producing the most powerful, most energy efficient miner on the planet.

4 1/2) Unless you're situated in Death Valley or Al-Aziziyah, if you are using "an industrial ac unit" for the amount of miners that it takes you "only a few minutes ... changing the freqs for the miners", you have no concept of air flow and/or ROI.


Your "extra":
The "community" you refer to that want's to reduce their own ROI represents a handful for the tens of thousands of units sold. I've yet to see 1 "pro" that you refer to, who has both an understanding of electronics and ROI, that wants the ability to underclock units that come from the factory "preset" to an "optimal level" per-chip....

ur one silly dude lol.

1. just lashing out at anyone that replies in a hostile way is ignorant period. uk this to be true and yet u still do it so maybe you want to be called out on your foolishness and thats what i did.

2. there is no new software kiddo lol. the firmware they use is basically the same firmware. the pre autotune firmware allowed you to set the freq and really the big diff between the older versions and the newer versions is that it was adapted to run their newer hashing boards. if you get technical your right...its different because it doesnt match line for line what the previous versions had but (here is another analogy -_-) my 2007 infiniti g35x sedan is basically the same as the 2008...the engine and perfomance is the same but there r a few features that were added like heated wiper blades and cooled passanger and driver seats instead of the seats in mine which can only warm your ass up not cool it down. as a whole are these considered a complete redesign of the model car?? nope! the complete redesign came with the g37x sedan that completely changed everything except for a few lines of the body. bitmain is just like my car...except they went backwards and removed a feature that could have been kept...the firmware auto tunes the freq....if the firmware runs all of the frews to find the most efficient one to run at explain how that cant be turned off to allow a user to set the freq? or why a ceiling cant be added?? do you know if bitmains firmware has a ceiling or do you think it goes to any freq is wants to even if its higher than the designed operating speed?? back to the car comparison....uk most cars have a rev limiter?? did uk they have a mph/kph limiter as well?? i removed both from my cars ecu but its there to make the car safer....do u think bitmain doesnt have a hardcoded limit to keep their boards safe??

3. there you go makin it all about u...ur not bitcoin....bitcoin isnt u. what is ideal for u isnt ideal for others. ur hittin that brick wall i mentioned earlier .

4. no you dont know how firmware works lol. the firmware used in the autotune miners esentially selects a freq and runs the boards at that freq...if the hw errors arent bad it says ok lets run it faster...and faster....and faster. why do you think it took 30 minutes to boot up before?? u think the miner just sat there doing nothing for 30 minutes until it felt it waited long enough to start mining?? this is info from bitmain not from me so before you post make sure you know what your quoting because your making yourself look silly. im not a hard core coder or a hardware developer but im positive if bitmain chose to let us manually set the freq for the miner they can do it.

5. yet again your back to your beliefs...you need to understand the conditions people r mining in r never exactly the same from miner to miner or day to day. we have seen miners that with 100% fan speed their temps r still pushing above 100 degrees....having the ability to change the freq manually will allow people that have that miner to say "hey at 550 freq its running ballz hot let me try 525 or even 500 instead to get lower temps". what part of this is so hard to get exactly? is it the facts part or the numbers part?? cause i would love to help you with both. what you consider an appropriate use of the miner isnt always what other believe. you are not them and they are not u...its their device like i said before...if they want to earn a little less who r we to say otherwise?? do u think ur opinion matters to ne one in this world that much that u feel u have the right to tell others what they can do with their devices?? if so please come back down to earth....we r all waiting here to have a legit convo with u but as of right now i feel like im talking to a kid that cant see when hes wrong or a very very controlling boyfriend/girlfriend that wont be happy unless things r the way they say it has to be. grow up kid. your only making urself look bad....even if its online its still pathetic.

6. so because i had to lower my freq that somehow means idk ne thing about airflow or roi?? ok u got me....im dyin to know what you mean by that because it sounds so silly i cant resist getting more info on your theory. maybe what i said was hard to understand so let me break this down for u sweety. do u know how an industrial roof top mounted ac unit works?? do uk what a chiller is?? its not some tiny unit sitting on the roof like the one in your backyard at home. the chiller for one of our buildings is about 2/3 as big as the building.....by 2/3 i mean the flat surface of the roof covers the entire building....2/3 of that is taken up by the chiller/fan motors pumping air through the building. anyway when that big ass unit has a pump go down it runs at half capacity....because the ciller uses water not a giant radiator wrapped around the compressor like at your house....so running at half capacity i can either run my miners full speed and they overheat and stop mining at 80 degrees (this happened when i ran all s7's so keep that in mind) and dont come back up until rebooted. orrrrr i cut the speed down to compensate for the lossed cooling while the pump got fixed. one involves 0 mining and making 0 btc....not to mentioned hardware damage that can happen. the other involves no miner going down and they still hash at partial speed making me money until the pump got fixed and they could run at full speed again. idk y i had to explain this again but hopefully your tiny brain can comprehend what i said this time. or maybe its ignorance that is causing you to speak outta turn? did you start mining with the s9?? if so that would explain why you dont know about the cut off temps and about changing freqs on every model produced so far.

there your wrong again....the freq isnt preset like you think they are. the freq is tested by the firmware when it boots up to find the optimal freq to use for the boards installed into the miner. i have to factor in roi times with every purchase and increased difficulty based on guestimates and so on. i have free power....so my roi times r much faster than most other people but needing to break even doesnt mean i am willing to harm my machines to get to roi as fast as possible. environments change...having a miner that can change too is the smart way to go....know what thats called sweety?? flexibility! i hope u stop being so thick headed in the future lol. its not a good look at all. my boss used to tell me "dont be so rigid...." and if my responses were anything like yours i can 100% see why she wanted me to be more flexible because your just not open to what other people have to say even if it proves u wrong. best of luck

[ComputerGenie]

...

I was going to respond, but the fact that you think you know how the firmware works and stated the exact opposite of how it actually does (even going so far as to show that you don't even grasp what the PIC is, how it functions, or what it contains) makes me realize facts and reality are meaningless to you.

[Swimmer63]

...Back to the fight

 I gave you a lot of proof that  there are 1000's of small miners on f2pool...

Evidence that there are x amount of small miners is not evidence that there is y amount of miners that want to reduce their own ROI even further by underclocking; you're conflating 2 separate things....

You continue to say all those who underclock want to significantly reduce their ROI.  I keep telling you smart miners underclock when their miners reach an age where underclocking makes sense for their ROI.  But you can't seem to grasp that.  Which is telling.

[tbonetony]

What a pain to skim through all these fights -_-, especially on a bitmain product post.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

What a pain to skim through all these fights -_-, especially on a bitmain product post.

Agreed!
Might I politely suggest this particular discussion be moved to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1645898.msg18203472#msg18203472 which is a thread I started as soon as I got my batch-17 so long ago... That deals specifically with Auto-tune including the 'Why".

Seems like a good place to put this and keeps clutter here to a minimum...