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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012894 times)
mobodick
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April 17, 2013, 03:53:56 PM
 #401

...
Yeah well, i'm sorry to tell you that there are always better people than you know.
I can guarantee you that there are people not involved in bitcoin that could produce a better ASIC than any bitcoin-involved parties. The only question is, are they interested enough to get into it now.

There is nothing magical about bitcoin and the algorithm the ic will need to execute is already decided.
Also notice that the problems the ASIC companies are having is not with the hardware implementation of hashing but with the actual technical bit of producing ASICs. They would be screwing up the same way even if they designed an mp3 player instead of a bitcoin hasher.
And all these problems are what real pro's have learned to manage.
So i can fully imagine someone with a plan being able to poop out bitcoin ASICS in a much shorter time frame then what we currently see.

If not then maybe you can explain what would make a bitcoin ASIC so difficult to design for an outsider that they could never catch up.
How many failed (serious) outsider ASIC companies have there been for you to have noticed this dynamic as a general fact?
It's easy to explain.
The outsiders always think like an outsider.
They've made chips that do simple stuff and don't require much power or much complexity.

Yes the algorithm is simple (hell I even wrote a program that generates optimised working BTC c sha256 code from a simple text definition - that works) ... but to implement it in hardware is not.
Go have a look at the FPGA bitstreams and discussions from the latter part of 2011 to get an idea.
I'll certainly will get up to date on that discussion.
Meanwhile i don't see how the actual implementation needs more than than a thorough general understanding of how to use die space effectively. I'm not sure there can be anything specific to bitcoin that would change this process compared to implementing other algorithms. Sure, SHA256 will have its own set of 'hot-spots' that you need to deal with but every design can have these and they always need to be dealt with.

Quote
Anyway, it doesn't really matter - we are already 10 days into the "few months" and they've only just announced this hardware company.
When 10-July rolls around, they wont be anywhere near complete and they'll have proven themselves that they cannot do it in "a few months"
This will depend on the actual specs their devices will have and the price at which they will sell them.
If they, for instance, use a smaller process then they will have a competitive product even if they deliver much later.

If you think that they are a scam because they seem to not start when you think they should have look at BFL. They will probably deliver at some point but they are horribly over due. But are they a scam? I'd say no, but they sure have a scummy side to them. (ow, and i propose a complementary to the scam tag: the SCUM tag Wink )

Quote
We've got 4 companies who have already built bitcoin hardware before they started on ASIC.
ASICMINER, Avalon, BFL and bASIC.
The last one failed, the 2nd last one still hasn't released their hardware, and the other 2 took way over 3 months to produce a chip that hashes slower than an FPGA - it just requires hundreds of them to get 'ASIC' speeds.
One thing I think you don't understand, is that BTC is full of tech people who DO know what they are talking about and who DO work for companies that do this sort of stuff.

Anyway, well see on the 10th of July.

If the bitcoin community is realy this full of 'people in the know' then we would have seen ASICS way back in 2011 already.
There is not much difference in difficulty designing an ASIC now then it was 2 years ago. It's the same process. So why did all these tech people that you say BTC is full with take so long to see the future?
What i also see is that these skilled tech people frequenctly disagree with each other. They all seem to have copyright on the truth. In such a situation, even if the people are experienced, there is always room for a 3rd party to actually do better.

I'n not saying this is NOT a scam of sorts.
I'm saying that you cannot say that it's bullshit per se.
We realy need more information to even get close to being able to assess this.

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dan99
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April 17, 2013, 04:24:13 PM
 #402

At this point in time I have to agreed with the guy from kncminer that they have a good chance of creating the product weather if they
meet the timeline or not is another issue. Those guys from ORSoC should know what they are doing with the hardware side, but the programing and coding I am not too sure if they could do it by them self.. if it come to the worse we have the expertise here to lend a hand. In regards to the chip and pcb design and production lets  hope they are on top of it. Since someone has spoken and confirm with the ceo of ORSoC that kncminer is involved I wouldn't used the S word at all. Who knows they may deliver the product earlier than Josh Butterflies ..  Smiley and quality wise maybe better than those
from the far east. I know their Volvo cars are well known for quality and safety.
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April 17, 2013, 05:10:31 PM
 #403

Hey guys,

When ORSoC confirms their involvement in this project, it will have gained a lot of confidence.

They already confirmed. I spoke with their CEO.

(I wrote an E-Mail to ORSoC)
..... Seems to be legit


If the image is not really legible:

Quote
Hi Jan,

Yes, we are cooperating with KNCmining to develop mining products.
Can't go into any detail right now.
 
The communication is mainly held via KNCminier.

Thanks,
                      /Johan
 
Från: Jan xxxxxx Schmidt [mailto:schmidt-jan-xxxxxxx@web.de]
Skickat: den 17 april 2013 16:47
Till: info@orsoc.se
Ämne: Need a confirm of involvement (kncminer(ORSoC)
 
Dear Sir or Madam,
 
I'm Jan Schmidt (alias newfrozzen) from the bitcointalk.org forum.
I contact you because  kncminer (.com) published some news, which says that  ORSoC would be
 involved in their project (to produce ASICs for bitcoin-mining).
 
So could you please confirms your involvement in this project?
For example with a prove and a reply on this E-Mail.
That would be great, because some other people and I have grave doubts about the validity of this ompany (kncminer)
and it could be a scam.
 
 
I look forward to receiving your reply.
 
With kind regards
Jan Schmidt
 


So one point more for *Not a Scam* Smiley
Rampion
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April 17, 2013, 05:23:04 PM
 #404

After speaking with ORSoC CEO, I can confirm that he guarantees KNCminer is NOT a scam.

Nevertheless, I cannot guarantee ORSoC is legit, but they seem to be. I would recommend some of our Swedish fellow Hero Members to do a background check on ORSoC, just to be sure.

Last but not least: I offer myself to visit KNCminer to test one of their products and to vouch for them in front of the community.



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April 17, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
 #405

ORSoC:


K & C:


I can upload financial statements for ORSoC as well. Where can I put PDF files easily? I don't want to host them myself.

Skude.se/BTC - an easier way to request your daily free coins!
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April 17, 2013, 06:09:59 PM
 #406

ORSoC are legit alright.
Registered 1991, 11 employees and turnover of slightly over 10,000,000 SEK ($1,500,000) for 2012.
Found several news articles about them as well.
kingcoin
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April 17, 2013, 06:15:51 PM
 #407

cannot guarantee ORSoC is legit[/b], but they seem to be

They have been around for some time. They have been running the opencores.org site for several years.

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April 17, 2013, 06:19:48 PM
 #408

ORSoC are legit alright.
Registered 1991, 11 employees and turnover of slightly over 10,000,000 SEK ($1,500,000) for 2012.
Found several news articles about them as well.

Good news. So they are legit, only concern is that they may not be able to develop such an ambitious project, which happened to bASIC and BFL.

If they do not take advance money until they have a working prototype we should be OK

mobodick
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April 17, 2013, 06:36:32 PM
 #409

ORSoC are legit alright.
Registered 1991, 11 employees and turnover of slightly over 10,000,000 SEK ($1,500,000) for 2012.
Found several news articles about them as well.

Good news. So they are legit, only concern is that they may not be able to develop such an ambitious project, which happened to bASIC and BFL.

If they do not take advance money until they have a working prototype we should be OK

I don't think that a well established company would just step in and let it all fall out of their hands.
They understand tat the product will need to work before they even begin to manufacture it because otherwise there is a real risk of killing the whole company.
In other words, i don't think they will agree to producing something that will get them in financial trouble.
E3V3A
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April 17, 2013, 06:38:24 PM
 #410

Seem legit, but it should be noted that they are currently looking to employ somebody with FPGA/ASIC experience.

http://orsoc.se/current-vacancies/langswitch_lang/en/

Quote
Kompetenser söks till våra kontor i Stockholm, Göteborg och Västerås.
    FPGA-, ASIC- och DSP utveckling med VHDL eller Verilog.
    Hårdvarunära programmering: C, C++.
    Embedded Linux.

What does that mean? That they don't actually have enough know-how or that they are so busy they can't keep up the work load... Hm. I'd say the former, since they already have 11 employees according to image above.

So yeah, we'll be waiting...and waiting...and waiting.
mobodick
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April 17, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
 #411

Seem legit, but it should be noted that they are currently looking to employ somebody with FPGA/ASIC experience.

http://orsoc.se/current-vacancies/langswitch_lang/en/

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Kompetenser söks till våra kontor i Stockholm, Göteborg och Västerås.
    FPGA-, ASIC- och DSP utveckling med VHDL eller Verilog.
    Hårdvarunära programmering: C, C++.
    Embedded Linux.

What does that mean? That they don't actually have enough know-how or that they are so busy they can't keep up the work load... Hm. I'd say the former, since they already have 11 employees according to image above.

So yeah, we'll be waiting...and waiting...and waiting.


You're wondering if it's strange for a bakery to look for bakers.

If you company specializes in the design and production of ASICs and FPGAs then you need people that understand ASICs, FPGAs and verilog.
NO SHIT GENIUS!  Grin
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April 17, 2013, 09:16:23 PM
 #412

Seem legit, but it should be noted that they are currently looking to employ somebody with FPGA/ASIC experience.

http://orsoc.se/current-vacancies/langswitch_lang/en/

Quote
Kompetenser söks till våra kontor i Stockholm, Göteborg och Västerås.
    FPGA-, ASIC- och DSP utveckling med VHDL eller Verilog.
    Hårdvarunära programmering: C, C++.
    Embedded Linux.

What does that mean? That they don't actually have enough know-how or that they are so busy they can't keep up the work load... Hm. I'd say the former, since they already have 11 employees according to image above.

So yeah, we'll be waiting...and waiting...and waiting.


E3V3A
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April 17, 2013, 10:21:01 PM
 #413

Well, if you're so smart, why'd you just totally miss the point?

The point (for those who are not pretending to be smart asses), is that if they haven't even hired the right guys yet, we'll have quite a bit more waiting to do. Hey, what do I care? I've already promised not to buy into this project. Spend you coins man, just spend them all. 
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April 17, 2013, 11:01:23 PM
 #414

Bakery with 11 employees posts advertisement asking for a baker. You would assume that lab member 12 is the first baker that they hire?
mobodick
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April 18, 2013, 12:05:45 AM
 #415

Well, if you're so smart, why'd you just totally miss the point?

The point (for those who are not pretending to be smart asses), is that if they haven't even hired the right guys yet, we'll have quite a bit more waiting to do. Hey, what do I care? I've already promised not to buy into this project. Spend you coins man, just spend them all. 


Go to a webpage of a random company that does stuff.
Then go to the jobs page.
They will be asking for people that do the same stuff they do.
Sirously.
Go try.
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April 18, 2013, 12:08:41 AM
 #416

I emailed the address on the site to ask a few questions about the product.

The response is below, and was received within a an hour.

****
Hi Adam

You are quite right it is hard to predict the exact cost of everything before we know the answers.

What I can say is we will have multiple products

You can expect to see products that are available in one or two weeks from date of order which will still earn you money and return in a short time frame.  Also products and services which will have a longer lead time but will be competitive  the performance of the existing market players   

Med vänlig hälsning  |  Best regards
Sam Cole
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Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

I believe this to be a sockpuppet account, and no way in hell would, or should they have given such a lame reply.
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April 18, 2013, 12:29:33 AM
 #417

keep up the digging! I really want them to turn out to be legit, asics being made in my "backyard" would be so more convenient ;P
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April 18, 2013, 12:54:26 AM
 #418

keep up the digging! I really want them to turn out to be legit, asics being made in my "backyard" would be so more convenient ;P

Your wish is my... http://www.linkedin.com/company/orsoc

Quote
About ORSoC

ORSoC is an expert consultant company with focus in ASIC-, FPGA-, and DSP development, including design, verification and backend work. We are located in Stockholm, Sweden.

The company is legit, but could somebody point to me where they state that they make anything themselves?

Two bitcoins wanting to make ASIC-based bitcoin miners partners up with a consultant firm that farms out the development, then manufactures ASIC chips without consulting a single Bitcoin filmware developer. I call that process Magic: The Gathering.
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April 18, 2013, 01:06:31 AM
 #419

http://web.archive.org/web/20070111055414/http://www.orsoc.se/

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Though our semiconductor partner, eASIC, we can offer extremely cost efficient target technologies to fit the unique requirements of performance and volume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EASIC

Quote
In 1999 eASIC Corporation was founded in San Jose, California, and incorporated in Delaware by Zvi Or-Bach, the founder of Chip Express (renamed to ChipX). eASIC is a privately held company, headquartered in Santa Clara, California, with engineering and R&D teams in Romania and Malaysia. eASIC is venture backed by Vinod Khosla, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers (KPCB), Crescendo Ventures, and Evergreen Partners.

http://www.easic.com/easic-contact/28-nm-registration/
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April 18, 2013, 01:37:31 AM
 #420

Easic performance isn't going to knock your socks off (you only get to customize the top layer, pretty similar performance to fpga hardcopy).  But you can get an asic done there for under 100k, so I believe this is a viable project.  I would expect them to go with the 45nm process, and power/performance wise be somewhere in-between avalon and BFL.  I would guesstimate somewhere in the 800mhash/chip on the easic 45nm process. Don't trust the simulations, and pray you get it right on the first run.
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