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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006804 times)
KS
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May 17, 2013, 11:40:36 PM
 #1241


instead of trolling yourself, walk a mile in my shoes.

I had to retype + repost the bloody thing 5 times, I'm loosing my connection here! For GOD's SAKE!

Smiley

PS: don't think you can just paint walls of letters and nobody will do anything about it! Smiley

edit: retyping the post before this one, of course, not the one quoted. and, that might come as a shocker for someone as prolific as yourself, but trolling, while it can be fun, doesn't actually pay the rent, so, sorry if I don't reply to your posts immediately... Smiley
edit2: and by that I mean post a list of relevant questions pertaining to the KnC operation, of course!

An issue with typed conversation is it can be hard to determine whether your comments have been facetious or sarcastic, but the smilies have resolved that in my mind. I've certainly been more active on here than I would given the choice, and agreed 'painting virtual walls' certainly does not pay the rent. I've been sat twiddling my thumbs all this week, and the previous whilst swallowing 500mg of penicillin every six hours to treat a throat infection. The fact the weather in the UK has decided to revert back to winter practically has also given me every reason to waste my life on an Internet forum until I can talk again.

That aside my stance is hopefully hopelessly optimistic, as opposed to securely confident so I want to air as much of KNC as possible prior to payment.

Payment is a big issue that still needs to be addressees, especially timing of it. Questions need to be asked on when these payments are required to take place. For me it is crucial that we are still covered by some form of payment protection be it Paypal or Credit Card. from what I understand payment won't be requested until prototypes have been proven. Making a prototype and manufacturing en mass to specification is another. Avalon has proven they can make working ASIC miners, but getting them in the hands of paying customers in time has proven to be a difficulty. This for me is the risk. Paypal give a 45 day buyer protection. Will KNC request payment and deliver in that time period? Does that give them enough time to purchase parts needed, assemble and handle the logistics to reach the customers door in that time?

^^FTFY

& thank god for smileys! Grin

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May 18, 2013, 02:54:36 AM
 #1242

is monday showing still on?
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May 18, 2013, 03:11:38 AM
 #1243

So much (healthy) skepticism in this thread. As someone said, lots of green signals and no red ones here. This is not an attempt at scamming the community. The only question is whether they can deliver; they're obviously on the up and up on their intentions.

Since so many of you feel that they won't deliver, why haven't I seen anyone willing to sell their KNC pre-order?

Let's go, let's have it, who's got one and is now ready to sell it off? If you're convinced it's not worth it, should go cheap too, eh? Let's start some bidding, say 0.005 btc for a pre-order? Since some of you are convinced, apparently, that these pre-orders are less than worthless, and undoubtedly some of the so-convinced have pre-orders, why not?

Penny for your thoughts--dollar for your pre-order.

Hey, I'll sell mine. Smiley



When I log into my account on the KNCminer website I don't see any order history or anything. Does everyone see that same thing? I thought I use to see my place# in the queue. I do still have my original email that was sent to me. My place in the queue is at the end. It is #341. So this will give me the opportunity when the time comes to be able to buy one of their miners up to 500 units sold. I hope so.


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May 18, 2013, 04:23:09 AM
 #1244

Email them...?

Nah, I'll wait for them to answer in this thread.

I can't be the only person wondering about this.



Well I know they've stated they won't be making a profit on Mars it's to gain faith that they are capable of producing a product en mass. That much they have stated in this thread before. I forget when and where, but it was obviously after Mars and Jupiter were announced. They weren't considering an FPGA before.

That said I'm also under the impression Mars is to raise funds for the ASIC development and that the first round of ASICs has no real profit as a lot is non-recurring engineering costs being covered. After that point they can lower pricing.
The reward for those purchasing first is hopefully getting in whilst hashrate provides a strong return. Not too sure what happens with the sale price/ROI after that point, but then neither does anyone right now.

Also with respect to Litecoin mining, I was told the scrypt algorithms is larger and more complex than what is required for Bitcoin and requires very fast access to memory. It's not just the amount of memory, and they will be working on that.

In any case they also stated to bring the FPGA price down they need to sell 400 units, so economies of scale are a factor as well.

Anything more specific you will have to email them, but for sure it's economies of scale and the fact they want to build trust as opposed to profit on this first Mars device.

Color me confused, for the way I read it is that Mars is going to be sold at a lose to build faith in their company, using the profits of that lose venture to develop the ASIC-based rigs, then afterward lower the price point because the non-recurring engineering costs would already be covered.

I want to hire their accountant or put their CFO on my payroll. Taking a page from their business model, starting with nothing, I could sell lower grade barn wood at a lose, then use the profit from those sales to sell a higher quality barn wood, and since all my equipment is now paid for, I would be in position to undercut my competition by lower my prices. And all that is predicated on the barns being given to me free and the paying of labor is deferred during the nascent stage of the operation.

Here's the kicker. I'm not doing this to make millions in profit. I'm doing it to save the planet by having fewer trees cut down, and to further the barn wood furniture movement. To prove that Lumbermar & Poles AB (American Barns) is a viable entity to trust your pre-order money with, we have teamed up with Acme Barns in Coyote, ID, supplying all their barn wood needs. Placement of our entity onto their website is forthcoming.
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May 18, 2013, 08:38:53 AM
 #1245

Email them...?

Nah, I'll wait for them to answer in this thread.

I can't be the only person wondering about this.



Well I know they've stated they won't be making a profit on Mars it's to gain faith that they are capable of producing a product en mass. That much they have stated in this thread before. I forget when and where, but it was obviously after Mars and Jupiter were announced. They weren't considering an FPGA before.

That said I'm also under the impression Mars is to raise funds for the ASIC development and that the first round of ASICs has no real profit as a lot is non-recurring engineering costs being covered. After that point they can lower pricing.
The reward for those purchasing first is hopefully getting in whilst hashrate provides a strong return. Not too sure what happens with the sale price/ROI after that point, but then neither does anyone right now.

Also with respect to Litecoin mining, I was told the scrypt algorithms is larger and more complex than what is required for Bitcoin and requires very fast access to memory. It's not just the amount of memory, and they will be working on that.

In any case they also stated to bring the FPGA price down they need to sell 400 units, so economies of scale are a factor as well.

Anything more specific you will have to email them, but for sure it's economies of scale and the fact they want to build trust as opposed to profit on this first Mars device.

Color me confused, for the way I read it is that Mars is going to be sold at a lose to build faith in their company, using the profits of that lose venture to develop the ASIC-based rigs, then afterward lower the price point because the non-recurring engineering costs would already be covered.

I want to hire their accountant or put their CFO on my payroll. Taking a page from their business model, starting with nothing, I could sell lower grade barn wood at a lose, then use the profit from those sales to sell a higher quality barn wood, and since all my equipment is now paid for, I would be in position to undercut my competition by lower my prices. And all that is predicated on the barns being given to me free and the paying of labor is deferred during the nascent stage of the operation.

Here's the kicker. I'm not doing this to make millions in profit. I'm doing it to save the planet by having fewer trees cut down, and to further the barn wood furniture movement. To prove that Lumbermar & Poles AB (American Barns) is a viable entity to trust your pre-order money with, we have teamed up with Acme Barns in Coyote, ID, supplying all their barn wood needs. Placement of our entity onto their website is forthcoming.

It's not that far fetched at all, think of it as a brand new shop opening up and they need to create new clients so the mechanic has a grand opening sale and offers cheap at cost oil changes. I have seen many new mechanic shops do this and it works well. Consider it as advertising. It's a good idea as the need for new products comes along the reputation of the company is well enforced through the products durability and the fact their in the hands of those customers already.

I like it.makes sense. As everything else the more they build the cheaper the RnD
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May 18, 2013, 09:08:04 AM
 #1246

is monday showing still on?

Don't think so, would be good of the guys going could confirm.

I like it.makes sense. As everything else the more they build the cheaper the RnD

From what I understand this is the case. They have longer term goals and an interest in a wider product line. The first couple of waves are for proving legitimacy and covering NRE costs.

Again this is something that requires confirmation whenever the meet occurs. So reword it in a palatable format and pm it to those attending to ask (Phin).

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May 18, 2013, 11:05:59 AM
 #1247

It's not that far fetched at all, think of it as a brand new shop opening up and they need to create new clients so the mechanic has a grand opening sale and offers cheap at cost oil changes. I have seen many new mechanic shops do this and it works well. Consider it as advertising. It's a good idea as the need for new products comes along the reputation of the company is well enforced through the products durability and the fact their in the hands of those customers already.

I like it.makes sense. As everything else the more they build the cheaper the RnD

It's not far fetched but it's not in the right market for barn sales.

Consider this:

-WHEN do you do barn sales? When you have inventory.
-WHY do you do barn sales? To get rid of inventory.
-HOW do you make money on barn sales? By buying liquidated inventory (i.e. ex-bankrupcy, overstocks, etc) or selling high margin products cheaper (like tire sales).

-Do they have inventory? No.
-Do they want to get rid of said inventory? No, it's a lossleader, not overstock.
-Will they make money on the inventory? No, it's a lossleader.

As Bitcoinorama rightly pointed out, the Mars sale is a way to lock you into buying a Jupiter. It's not to make a profit to fund development, they're pretty much selling at cost already. They'll make their money when you send yours for the preorder.

Bitcoin mining is a niche industry. In niche industries, you don't do barn sales, you sell know-how at a high price. The performance leader sets the price. If you have a low price, you're automatically "less good" and/or suspicious.

You shouldn't mix commodity market techniques and niche markets. They won't work together because of the low volumes. If you did do barn sales, you wouldn't make any money and YOU'd be the one whose inventory gets bought by bankrupcy sharks. It niche markets, you need to be a performance leader.

edit: when I mean they sell at cost, I don't mean it will just cover the BOM. I consider the R&D and other normal company expenses as well.

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May 18, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
 #1248

It's not that far fetched at all, think of it as a brand new shop opening up and they need to create new clients so the mechanic has a grand opening sale and offers cheap at cost oil changes. I have seen many new mechanic shops do this and it works well. Consider it as advertising. It's a good idea as the need for new products comes along the reputation of the company is well enforced through the products durability and the fact their in the hands of those customers already.

I like it.makes sense. As everything else the more they build the cheaper the RnD

It's not far fetched but it's not in the right market for barn sales.

Consider this:

-WHEN do you do barn sales? When you have inventory.
-WHY do you do barn sales? To get rid of inventory.
-HOW do you make money on barn sales? By buying liquidated inventory (i.e. ex-bankrupcy, overstocks, etc) or selling high margin products cheaper (like tire sales).

-Do they have inventory? No.
-Do they want to get rid of said inventory? No, it's a lossleader, not overstock.
-Will they make money on the inventory? No, it's a lossleader.

As Bitcoinorama rightly pointed out, the Mars sale is a way to lock you into buying a Jupiter. It's not to make a profit to fund development, they're pretty much selling at cost already. They'll make their money when you send yours for the preorder.

Bitcoin mining is a niche industry. In niche industries, you don't do barn sales, you sell know-how at a high price. The performance leader sets the price. If you have a low price, you're automatically "less good" and/or suspicious.

You shouldn't mix commodity market techniques and niche markets. They won't work together because of the low volumes. If you did do barn sales, you wouldn't make any money and YOU'd be the one whose inventory gets bought by bankrupcy sharks. It niche markets, you need to be a performance leader.

edit: when I mean they sell at cost, I don't mean it will just cover the BOM. I consider the R&D and other normal company expenses as well.

Your making it sound like it's going out of business. They have questions like what will make money? What do the customers want? Will I make a profit from this? How long can I sell this product or its shelf life?

They understand that this market the products sold affect the product that have already been sold and in turn also affects the products value before they are sold.

So the problem here is this. How do I make my company relevant to the market in such a hostile environment? People don't know me, and as a result don't trust me. How do I make and keep making money? If I build 1 prototype it costs the same to me if I sell 100 or 100,000.

Will I be able to sell 100,000? If I'm going to make them and their is a demand how do I push these out in batches or a super release of all at the same time?

I would need to make the first batch small but not to small where its not profitable. I have to do this quickly provided I have the demand to do this. My competition will work against me.

These products make money literally, I mean if banks where in the business of selling you branches of the bank would it work? thats basically what their doing here. This is another reason these companies like BFL still don't understand that the act of making these products kill currencies like steroids kill weightlifters. However the need is there to be fulfilled, the need is greed.

So I would first register names by making a poll to see if there is demand. Then use FPGA technology for litecoin as a stepping stone to gain relevancy in the market. They need a gimmick a flagship product that will generate revenue for other products.

 When my name is more out there I can quickly push products out in batches and adjust prices according to profitability and need of the consumer.

Barn sales are products that are discounted and discontinued where the value of the product is reducing and has already been advertised and well known. Even the brand name is not even required at times. As seen on TV shit and stuff like that.

They will have a tough time entering but I feel they can learn from others on how not to do it.

Oil changes is a bad analogy due to the oil change value would not affect future oil changes but the goal would be customer awareness that they exist. That is their needed goal here for now.
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May 18, 2013, 01:48:01 PM
 #1249

It's not that far fetched at all, think of it as a brand new shop opening up and they need to create new clients so the mechanic has a grand opening sale and offers cheap at cost oil changes. I have seen many new mechanic shops do this and it works well. Consider it as advertising. It's a good idea as the need for new products comes along the reputation of the company is well enforced through the products durability and the fact their in the hands of those customers already.

I like it.makes sense. As everything else the more they build the cheaper the RnD

It's not far fetched but it's not in the right market for barn sales.

Consider this:

-WHEN do you do barn sales? When you have inventory.
-WHY do you do barn sales? To get rid of inventory.
-HOW do you make money on barn sales? By buying liquidated inventory (i.e. ex-bankrupcy, overstocks, etc) or selling high margin products cheaper (like tire sales).

-Do they have inventory? No.
-Do they want to get rid of said inventory? No, it's a lossleader, not overstock.
-Will they make money on the inventory? No, it's a lossleader.

As Bitcoinorama rightly pointed out, the Mars sale is a way to lock you into buying a Jupiter. It's not to make a profit to fund development, they're pretty much selling at cost already. They'll make their money when you send yours for the preorder.

Bitcoin mining is a niche industry. In niche industries, you don't do barn sales, you sell know-how at a high price. The performance leader sets the price. If you have a low price, you're automatically "less good" and/or suspicious.

You shouldn't mix commodity market techniques and niche markets. They won't work together because of the low volumes. If you did do barn sales, you wouldn't make any money and YOU'd be the one whose inventory gets bought by bankrupcy sharks. It niche markets, you need to be a performance leader.

edit: when I mean they sell at cost, I don't mean it will just cover the BOM. I consider the R&D and other normal company expenses as well.

Your making it sound like it's going out of business. They have questions like what will make money? What do the customers want? Will I make a profit from this? How long can I sell this product or its shelf life?
They're not IN business yet, let's give them that...
The product shelf life is very short.
Quote
They understand that this market the products sold affect the product that have already been sold and in turn also affects the products value before they are sold.
Yes, like the drug market. Your customers will always need more but their old "stuff" is now worthless.
Quote
So the problem here is this. How do I make my company relevant to the market in such a hostile environment? People don't know me, and as a result don't trust me. How do I make and keep making money? If I build 1 prototype it costs the same to me if I sell 100 or 100,000.
You will make 100.000 units a lot cheaper per unit than for 100 units. trust me on that Wink
Quote
Will I be able to sell 100,000? If I'm going to make them and their is a demand how do I push these out in batches or a super release of all at the same time?
You won't sell 100.000 units. This is not a mass market. Avalon has batches of 300, 3 so far, one barely shipped completely. The chips they sell on the side won't make tens of thousands of mining units of the same 60GH/s hashrate.
Quote
I would need to make the first batch small but not to small where its not profitable. I have to do this quickly provided I have the demand to do this. My competition will work against me.
Up to you to find out what the proper price is. Price it too high and it won't sell. You should not be afraid to loose money on the first batch. You make an investment then you get in back over a certain period of time, not all at once. There are always outliers, but best to think in a way that ensures you will succeed. Don't be greedy.
Quote
These products make money literally, I mean if banks where in the business of selling you branches of the bank would it work? thats basically what their doing here. This is another reason these companies like BFL still don't understand that the act of making these products kill currencies like steroids kill weightlifters. However the need is there to be fulfilled, the need is greed.
If it's not BFL, it's Avalon, ASICMINER, AMD, whoever. As long as the BFL's share their products, it's not a problem. Everyone will always try to outdo their neighbor anyway.
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So I would first register names by making a poll to see if there is demand.
Sure, why not?
Quote
Then use FPGA technology for litecoin as a stepping stone to gain relevancy in the market. They need a gimmick a flagship product that will generate revenue for other products.
LTC is another market, you won't get relevance in BTC for making LTC FPGA's. You also don't need to make products that loose money but would be supported by your money making flagship product. Sorry to say, but this is a bit silly. Not a mass market.
Quote
When my name is more out there I can quickly push products out in batches and adjust prices according to profitability and need of the consumer.
If you don't pay for batch one out of your pocket, you will always have a delay between batches (months, in BTC products). Or you make small batches and kill your margin (or make your products too expensive).
Quote
Barn sales are products that are discounted and discontinued where the value of the product is reducing and has already been advertised and well known. Even the brand name is not even required at times. As seen on TV shit and stuff like that.
Current BTC miners will quickly be on barn sales when the ASICs will finally be deployed en masse, so your window of opportunity to sell anything is very short right now.
Quote
They will have a tough time entering but I feel they can learn from others on how not to do it.
Let's hope so... but they still don't seem to have their business-side setup right (ATM).
Quote
Oil changes is a bad analogy due to the oil change value would not affect future oil changes but the goal would be customer awareness that they exist. That is their needed goal here for now.
Your phrasing is slippery, but maybe you could use the example of a kind of ICT product instead. Computers, smartphones, whatnot. each new generation chips away at the value of the previous one.

Anyway, you seem to want their products and want to find a way to reassure/convince yourself they will succeed. That means you are already actively ignoring the little voice of caution in your head. That's what desire/greed will do to you, so be careful Wink

Cheers .

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List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
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May 18, 2013, 03:52:55 PM
 #1250

From what I've been told; initial run is priced to cover NRE (non-recurring engineering), initial investors are rewarded with the advantage of a lower hash rate, from then on in products become less expensive to buy, and less expensive to produce, whilst the range of products becomes more varied. This allows KNC and their products to remain profitable and competitive, whilst distributing the network fairly, and opening it up for a variety of consumers to enter the bitcoin mining market at various entry points. 28nm will become the standard for some time.

The risk is can they develop and produce a stable power-efficient 28nm chip en mass, and distribute the initial run by September? For now, that's all anyone cares about.

Are these guys capable and trustworthy? This is what we need evidence of.

Can we secure our payments via buyer protection through reputable payment channels and receive our goods within then time period covered by buyer protection? (45 days for Paypal). That's what I'm most concerned about with respect to me actually putting my hand in my pocket.

The risk should be having your funds tied up for a period of time, an inconvenience, but not a loss.

That is the reason for accepting Paypal, and credit card, otherwise you may as well pay in Bitcoin or cash (anonymous currencies) if the time from payment to delivery exceeds that stipulated by the buyer protection.

If you're protected there is no risk to you, and KNC have crowdsourced an interest free loan to develop and produce - both parties are hugely rewarded at the end.

Investors get to mine virtual currency, KNC gain a massively in demand company which has forged a solid reputation (if they succeed) rapidly, and a product line with NRE paid for. Products can then be produced at far less expense at no financial risk to KNC, with no need to advertise for new custom.

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May 18, 2013, 05:02:31 PM
 #1251

I think there is really nothing to add to the case.

It's wait and see time.

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May 18, 2013, 07:27:07 PM
 #1252


Anyway, you seem to want their products and want to find a way to reassure/convince yourself they will succeed. That means you are already actively ignoring the little voice of caution in your head. That's what desire/greed will do to you, so be careful Wink

Cheers .
Great post and most of it I was in agreement, however the part I left here was where you went wrong.

I learned a big lesson with BFL as I have placed a pre-ordered on Oct 9 2012 and cancelled it on Jan 2013. I later waited for a working prototype to pre-order again however they then later raised prices. So I do believe that statement is a bit presumptuous.

However I can see why you would say that. Now that you know more about me I guess you would see that statement would be incorrect.

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May 18, 2013, 11:25:58 PM
 #1253

Can we order yet?

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May 19, 2013, 02:18:05 AM
 #1254

Can we order yet?

Anyone know if the live prototype FPGA show going to be available this coming monday? Smiley
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May 19, 2013, 02:19:46 AM
 #1255

Can't wait for the unveiling

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May 19, 2013, 08:24:40 AM
 #1256

Can we order yet?

Anyone know if the live prototype FPGA show going to be available this coming monday? Smiley

No, still awaiting parts that were due for delivery last week (Thurs), so perhaps sometime this week.

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May 19, 2013, 08:44:18 AM
 #1257


Anyway, you seem to want their products and want to find a way to reassure/convince yourself they will succeed. That means you are already actively ignoring the little voice of caution in your head. That's what desire/greed will do to you, so be careful Wink

Cheers .
Great post and most of it I was in agreement, however the part I left here was where you went wrong.

I learned a big lesson with BFL as I have placed a pre-ordered on Oct 9 2012 and cancelled it on Jan 2013. I later waited for a working prototype to pre-order again however they then later raised prices. So I do believe that statement is a bit presumptuous.

However I can see why you would say that. Now that you know more about me I guess you would see that statement would be incorrect.



Sorry, I'm blunt by nature, but I didn't mean it to sound presumptuous.

The way you put your arguments makes me think you are indeed wishing this a little bit too much and are trying to find excuses for KnC. That's what I see.

I'm not you, and I trust you know you better than I do, so I'll take your word for it Wink

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
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ninjaboon
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May 19, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
 #1258

someone started a thread here.
http://bitcoinmalaysia.com/forum/index.php?topic=33.msg54#msg54

hope I don't get kicked for posting another forum site here.

glowkeeper
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May 19, 2013, 10:14:44 AM
 #1259


So?

In other news, David Beckham retired. Though please don't post a link to every news organisation discussing the matter.....
dan99
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May 19, 2013, 10:18:25 AM
 #1260


Anyway, you seem to want their products and want to find a way to reassure/convince yourself they will succeed. That means you are already actively ignoring the little voice of caution in your head. That's what desire/greed will do to you, so be careful Wink

Cheers .
Great post and most of it I was in agreement, however the part I left here was where you went wrong.

I learned a big lesson with BFL as I have placed a pre-ordered on Oct 9 2012 and cancelled it on Jan 2013. I later waited for a working prototype to pre-order again however they then later raised prices. So I do believe that statement is a bit presumptuous.

However I can see why you would say that. Now that you know more about me I guess you would see that statement would be incorrect.



Sorry, I'm blunt by nature, but I didn't mean it to sound presumptuous.

The way you put your arguments makes me think you are indeed wishing this a little bit too much and are trying to find excuses for KnC. That's what I see.

I'm not you, and I trust you know you better than I do, so I'll take your word for it Wink

Some of us maybe be kind of protective or come to the defense of KNC and that including me sometimes.. have to admit that because at the present moment  in terms of an existing Asic Chip Miner they are only 2 that is  avalon and asic miner .. We need more players to create a more conducive and a fairer market with good products at good prices that will benefit the communities and the users. Really hope they make it though Smiley  
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