Is taxation theft?

[rapidfireman]

I don't mind taxes if they are put to good use.  One thing I despise about it though is taxing the richer people more. As said before, you cannot make the poor richer by making the rich poorer.  Continuing the good uses, my township doesn't seem to make good use of the money.  They take the easy way out of things, but dump more money in the meantime.  Something as simple as the traffic lights are pulling millions of dollars a year just for that.  And they do it as inefficiently as possible for all the money they put in, and it shows because the lights are absolutely horrible. 

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[RealBitcoin]

If you "just focus on eliminating cancer, and all the chemicals from our food, and invent better efficient organic farming, without the downsides," you will have to get rid of most of the everyday technology. Focus on eternal life without eliminating the technology.

No because organic food doesnt always mean it's healthy. It can have worms or parasites in them.

You need modern technology, you just have to make it very very safe and with no downsides. GMO is probably not safe.

The rich gainst money by employing poor people at fair wages of what they can produce.

Wahou great!
And how do you guarantee fair wages?
How do you define that?
Who takes care of the fact that wages must be fair?

I suppose we should resurrect Marx and ask him?


But really, all wages are fair. If a worker is incompetent to negotiate (or doesnt have a union which negotiates on his behalf), then he deserves exactly the wage he gets.


If he gets paid 1$/hour, then he has 2 options:  find a better job or negotiate with your boss for a better salary.


But if people are so stupid to not do this, then they deserve the wage they get.

[BADecker]

If you "just focus on eliminating cancer, and all the chemicals from our food, and invent better efficient organic farming, without the downsides," you will have to get rid of most of the everyday technology. Focus on eternal life without eliminating the technology.

No because organic food doesnt always mean it's healthy. It can have worms or parasites in them.

You need modern technology, you just have to make it very very safe and with no downsides. GMO is probably not safe.

You're not thinking this thing through.

There is enough modern technology so that we can do the organic food thing without the downsides that the Middle Ages or anyone else had. The modern problem is the poisons that are being used for modern problem. Even though the food is healthier, the modern poisons are weakening us more than the benefits of modern farming are doing us good.

Consider. Organic could safely mean healthy vegetarian. Why? If there were no modern chemicals poisoning us any longer, our immune systems would be strong enough to easily fight off worm and parasite problems. This means that we would be getting enough protein from the worms and parasites to not need meat any longer. We would be healthier than ever.

[RealBitcoin]

If you "just focus on eliminating cancer, and all the chemicals from our food, and invent better efficient organic farming, without the downsides," you will have to get rid of most of the everyday technology. Focus on eternal life without eliminating the technology.

No because organic food doesnt always mean it's healthy. It can have worms or parasites in them.

You need modern technology, you just have to make it very very safe and with no downsides. GMO is probably not safe.

You're not thinking this thing through.

There is enough modern technology so that we can do the organic food thing without the downsides that the Middle Ages or anyone else had. The modern problem is the poisons that are being used for modern problem. Even though the food is healthier, the modern poisons are weakening us more than the benefits of modern farming are doing us good.

Consider. Organic could safely mean healthy vegetarian. Why? If there were no modern chemicals poisoning us any longer, our immune systems would be strong enough to easily fight off worm and parasite problems. This means that we would be getting enough protein from the worms and parasites to not need mat any longer. We would be healthier than ever.

I am not sure if you are joking here ,but this sounds like a very poor argument.


No the upside is that people can get food for cheap, and dont have to starve, and the downside is potential cancer from the chemicals in the food.

But even then, the chemicals are less dangerous than a parasite infection, which in the middle ages was always deadly.

And even if its not deadly, you need to take antibiotics for it, which is again, more chemicals.


So either way you will get getting chemicals, the question is, which path is less dangerous.

[BADecker]

Right. And one of the things that robots will never be able to do as well as people is research. So do something practical. Get into research and find ways to allow people to live for a thousand years. Robots will never be able to do this. And what good is anything if you're going to die in less than a hundred years and lose it all?

Ever heard of the technological singularity? I think that one day it'll probably happen.

Technological singularity would bring about certain destruction. Here is why in a very simple statement. The greater the complexity, the harder it is to maintain it.

All of our technology today is based on the complex "technology" already found in the universe. Remember, the universe has life. We can't make life at all, but the universe seems to make it daily in abundance. The universe has way more technology in it that we do.

For technological singularity to work, robots or AI would have to start to track multitudes of electrons, protons, neutrons, energy waves, etc., way beyond anything we can even dream of today. Scientists are barely able to manipulate genes, today. In super-intelligence of artificial AI, the AI would need to be able to track the dramatically tinier particles and waves, each individually, and with certainty.

Forget it.

To get on topic though, I don't think proper taxation is theft. I think there should be a small price to pay if you wish to live in a society in which everyone contributes to in order to make it better.

Consider Marc Stevens and No State Project at http://marcstevens.net/. The whole point that Marc is promoting is, if you need something from Government or anyone else, buy it. Don't get taxed for it. Marc is having success educating people.

The only (BIG) difference between Mark and Karl Lentz is, Mark busts them right in the chops with their own court processes, while Karl uses court processes that beat them every time because those processes aren't theirs.

The problem with Marc's stuff is, they can beat him every time if they really want to. They don't, because if they did, we would see through their game and start looking at Karl's stuff. Then their number would be up, and Government would collapse to a thousandth of its current size, and they wouldn't be able to rip the people off any longer.

[GMPoison]

Technological singularity would bring about certain destruction. Here is why in a very simple statement. The greater the complexity, the harder it is to maintain it.

All of our technology today is based on the complex "technology" already found in the universe. Remember, the universe has life. We can't make life at all, but the universe seems to make it daily in abundance. The universe has way more technology in it that we do.

For technological singularity to work, robots or AI would have to start to track multitudes of electrons, protons, neutrons, energy waves, etc., way beyond anything we can even dream of today. Scientists are barely able to manipulate genes, today. In super-intelligence of artificial AI, the AI would need to be able to track the dramatically tinier particles and waves, each individually, and with certainty.

Forget it.

Well you're definitely right in that for the technological singularity to happen we will have had to have solved intelligence. A super intelligence wouldn't necessarily spell the end of humanity, but who knows what could happen. Even if it would bring a certain destruction, it won't stop people from pursuing it. Mankind has never not scientifically progressed because it seemed scary. This is why there are committees and A.I. ethics boards being formed, because a lot of really smart people and the worlds largest companies are working on this idea of A.I. that would result in unfathomable changes to human civilization. It sounds like science fiction but it's not too unfathomable to think that one day we may figure it out.

[BADecker]

Technological singularity would bring about certain destruction. Here is why in a very simple statement. The greater the complexity, the harder it is to maintain it.

All of our technology today is based on the complex "technology" already found in the universe. Remember, the universe has life. We can't make life at all, but the universe seems to make it daily in abundance. The universe has way more technology in it that we do.

For technological singularity to work, robots or AI would have to start to track multitudes of electrons, protons, neutrons, energy waves, etc., way beyond anything we can even dream of today. Scientists are barely able to manipulate genes, today. In super-intelligence of artificial AI, the AI would need to be able to track the dramatically tinier particles and waves, each individually, and with certainty.

Forget it.

Well you're definitely right in that for the technological singularity to happen we will have had to have solved intelligence. A super intelligence wouldn't necessarily spell the end of humanity, but who knows what could happen. Even if it would bring a certain destruction, it won't stop people from pursuing it. Mankind has never not scientifically progressed because it seemed scary. This is why there are committees and A.I. ethics boards being formed, because a lot of really smart people and the worlds largest companies are working on this idea of A.I. that would result in unfathomable changes to human civilization. It sounds like science fiction but it's not too unfathomable to think that one day we may figure it out.

Are those people really smart? Have they really figured out how to fix people so they live in health for a thousand years? Are they just hiding it because they don't believe in a continuing Pangea-like expansion of Earth?

[Devnant]

Taking money from people without their consent is theft. Casting a vote among a group of people to take away money from other people is also theft.

Taking away a person's car without his consent, and giving him something back (a bike) is also theft, and that's the way most governments work today.

Even taking away someone's car and giving him a better car, without his consent, could also be considered theft.

"Consent" is the key word here. Statists can argue all they want about how taxes are important for society, public roads, education, etc. But tax is really just a less ugly word for theft. Make your case about it as a necessary evil but don't try to fool anyone about what actually it really is: theft pure and simple.

[Sithara007]

I suppose we should resurrect Marx and ask him?


But really, all wages are fair. If a worker is incompetent to negotiate (or doesnt have a union which negotiates on his behalf), then he deserves exactly the wage he gets.


If he gets paid 1$/hour, then he has 2 options:  find a better job or negotiate with your boss for a better salary.


But if people are so stupid to not do this, then they deserve the wage they get.

Have to agree 100% with you. In my country, most of the factory workers are protected by the unions. This has caused enormous hardship to the business owners. They are forced to employ unskilled people at exorbitant rates. As a result, a lot of these factories are closing down now. But the unions still demand 12-months or 24-months salary as severance benefit.

[rifiuti]

The rules are very simple. When you born in a country, you make an agreement with them. The Government says; I will protect you, keep you healthy, will provide all the basic human needs in exchange of paying a percentage from your revenue. I think it's not a bad deal.

[darkseid1199]

In some ways no, since the government provides us the right atmosphere of conducting business and living in peace, Taxation is very important.

[GIANNAT]

In some ways no, since the government provides us the right atmosphere of conducting business and living in peace, Taxation is very important.

And aren't we able to provide the same without the interferences of governments? We are, and also we could do it far more efficiently if we had 100% competitive market (no subsidy, no tariffs, no import quotas, and so on). Gov is only required for the defence of national borders and enforcement of contracts between parties. Thus for these minimum level of government activity only a minimum level of taxation should exist, whatever above that level should be considered equivalent to theft.

[mainpmf]

The rich gainst money by employing poor people at fair wages of what they can produce.

Wahou great!
And how do you guarantee fair wages?
How do you define that?
Who takes care of the fact that wages must be fair?

I suppose we should resurrect Marx and ask him?


But really, all wages are fair. If a worker is incompetent to negotiate (or doesnt have a union which negotiates on his behalf), then he deserves exactly the wage he gets.


If he gets paid 1$/hour, then he has 2 options:  find a better job or negotiate with your boss for a better salary.


But if people are so stupid to not do this, then they deserve the wage they get.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah here we are.

Do you even know what fair means?

If I want you to give me your computer for 50 cents, you won't do it because that's not fair right?
But if now I take out a gun, put it on your head and ask again, you'll accept it.

Is it fair?
Cause that's how things work...

[mainpmf]

I suppose we should resurrect Marx and ask him?


But really, all wages are fair. If a worker is incompetent to negotiate (or doesnt have a union which negotiates on his behalf), then he deserves exactly the wage he gets.


If he gets paid 1$/hour, then he has 2 options:  find a better job or negotiate with your boss for a better salary.


But if people are so stupid to not do this, then they deserve the wage they get.

Have to agree 100% with you. In my country, most of the factory workers are protected by the unions. This has caused enormous hardship to the business owners. They are forced to employ unskilled people at exorbitant rates. As a result, a lot of these factories are closing down now. But the unions still demand 12-months or 24-months salary as severance benefit.

Ahahahahah

Factories don't close because they "have to". They close because the owners know they can pay even less elsewhere that's all.
Don't put the blame on unions and workers for not wanting to work for nothing!

You say you agree 100% with the fact that workers should be able to negociate. And WTF are unions if not workers who negociate? That's the fucking definition of a union! What you say doesn't make any sense!

[Sithara007]

Ahahahahah

Factories don't close because they "have to". They close because the owners know they can pay even less elsewhere that's all.
Don't put the blame on unions and workers for not wanting to work for nothing!

You say you agree 100% with the fact that workers should be able to negociate. And WTF are unions if not workers who negociate? That's the fucking definition of a union! What you say doesn't make any sense!

No. They are not shifting their factories elsewhere. They are simply closing down their factories, and pulling out of business. I would blame the unions, because they even defend the employees who went AWOL for months, and those who misbehave with their coworkers.

[RealBitcoin]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah here we are.

Do you even know what fair means?

If I want you to give me your computer for 50 cents, you won't do it because that's not fair right?
But if now I take out a gun, put it on your head and ask again, you'll accept it.

Is it fair?
Cause that's how things work...

I don't believe an employment agreement involves a gun.

Ahahahahah

Factories don't close because they "have to". They close because the owners know they can pay even less elsewhere that's all.
Don't put the blame on unions and workers for not wanting to work for nothing!

You say you agree 100% with the fact that workers should be able to negociate. And WTF are unions if not workers who negociate? That's the fucking definition of a union! What you say doesn't make any sense!

Yes.

So they will move elsewhere ,and the idiots in that country will remain without a job, they will need welfare, and that will be paid by other idiots.

A very good solution.


Why not just let employers stay, they will come more, and they will compete for workers. Not the worker competes for employer. That is how prices go up, wages go up.

But leftists like you cant understand that.

[yoseph]

In some ways no, since the government provides us the right atmosphere of conducting business and living in peace, Taxation is very important.

And aren't we able to provide the same without the interferences of governments? We are, and also we could do it far more efficiently if we had 100% competitive market (no subsidy, no tariffs, no import quotas, and so on). Gov is only required for the defence of national borders and enforcement of contracts between parties. Thus for these minimum level of government activity only a minimum level of taxation should exist, whatever above that level should be considered equivalent to theft.

And what would you consider a minimum level of taxation. To be frank i think we are paying so many taxes some of which ends up in the pocket of some President in Africa or Syrian rebels trying to topple a government.

[Edraket31]

Taxation has benefited us, our economy our surroundings and our country. The worst thing that taxation has made is a corrupt politician. Corrupt politicians especially tax collector and tax expert are the one who polluted the name of tax. But, for me I am agree with the purpose of tax I really think that we really need it in our country.

[GIANNAT]

In some ways no, since the government provides us the right atmosphere of conducting business and living in peace, Taxation is very important.

And aren't we able to provide the same without the interferences of governments? We are, and also we could do it far more efficiently if we had 100% competitive market (no subsidy, no tariffs, no import quotas, and so on). Gov is only required for the defence of national borders and enforcement of contracts between parties. Thus for these minimum level of government activity only a minimum level of taxation should exist, whatever above that level should be considered equivalent to theft.

And what would you consider a minimum level of taxation. To be frank i think we are paying so many taxes some of which ends up in the pocket of some President in Africa or Syrian rebels trying to topple a government.

I cannot give you an exact answer as it would be too much country specific, but I believe a fair amount would be the one that makes the government able to provide those minimum services I highlighted in the previous post, without falling into severe deficit in the gov budget. Also I agree with you that there is a misallocation of resources, and most of those taxes get funneled into shadow economies.

[darkangel11]

Taxation has benefited us, our economy our surroundings and our country. The worst thing that taxation has made is a corrupt politician. Corrupt politicians especially tax collector and tax expert are the one who polluted the name of tax. But, for me I am agree with the purpose of tax I really think that we really need it in our country.

The greed has polluted the name of tax.
I agree that some taxes are essential, but adding taxes on top of existing taxes in hope that people can take it is theft and slavery. Government loans money and forces citizens to pay it back, bringing them to the edge of poverty. People should finally understand that they aren't responsible for their politician's mistakes. Iceland did it right and refused to join the EU and pay back their forced loans.