Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Fatman3001]

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Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're thinking instrumental, not intrinsic, value.  Intrinsic means in and of itself.  Opening a can is difficult without a can opener.  This doesn't imply that a can opener has intrinsic value--merely instrumental (to opening cans).

Yes, just listing examples like that does not show you that truth is intrinsic. But I am still of the opinion that truth has intrinsic value. If I ever write a doctorate on Kants Third Critique (yes third, not second) I might post the part concerning truth here and you can give it a blasé nod. But in case that doesn't happen you'll just have to take my word for it. Pleeeeease?

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[Torque]

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Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're joking right? That joke was so big I shot coffee right out of my nose.  North Korea, Greece, (the list goes on) anyone?

Next your going to say that Finance would impossible without truth, I suppose.

[Fatman3001]

The Extortionist

This person as illegally acquired sensitive information which is of no obvious significance for the Public Sphere but could be devastating in individual cases. This person is actively threatening to cause harm unless it is paid a ransom. This person is a criminal, whatever way you look at it. Any pretense of a moral high ground simply adds insult to injury.

Bullshit. The blackmailers in this case are not the same as the hackers who leaked.  They did not illegally obtain the information and they are leaving it to the users  of the site to decide if more harm than good is caused by exposing their activities to their spouses or if it is worth paying the ransom. People in open relationships would never pay the ransom anyway so you are bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Punishing bad behavior is only good if the State does it? Only when the state punishes bad behavior does it result in less bad behavior? What makes government sanction so magically delicious?

There would be no blackmail if people did not do things they would be ashamed to admit. If punishing bad behavior leads to less bad behavior then it is a net benefit to society regardless of who does the punishing. Cops get paid to investigate and bring ugly truths to light, so what is it about a badge that makes the same action bad for a private citizen?

You're opposed to government and in support of a police state at the same time. Consistency is a bitch. As is consequentialism.

[Fatman3001]

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Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're joking right? That joke was so big I spit coffee right out of my nose.  North Korea, Greece, (the list goes on) anyone?

You're right. It's meant to read Sound Government. I will change it.

[Fatman3001]

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Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're thinking instrumental, not intrinsic, value.  Intrinsic means in and of itself.  Opening a can is difficult without a can opener.  This doesn't imply that a can opener has intrinsic value--merely instrumental (to opening cans).

Yes, just listing examples like that does not show you that truth is intrinsic. But I am still of the opinion that truth has intrinsic value. If I ever write a doctorate on Kants Third Critique (yes third, not second) I might post the part concerning truth here and you can give it a blasé nod. But in case that doesn't happen you'll just have to take my word for it. Pleeeeease?

"'Kant ought to be arrested and given three years in Solovki asylum for that "proof" of his!' Ivan Nikolayich burst out completely unexpectedly."

Well, he is sound asleep 6 feet under in Kaliningrad, so he kind of got it his way.

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[BitChick]

Saw an article this morning.  http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-blackmail-of-ashley-madison-users-has-already-begun/ar-BBlXLTH?li=AA54ur I guess a extortionist group called "Team GrayFlay" is already threatening to blackmail Ashley Madison users in the hack and they want payment only in Bitcoin.  From the article

Unfortunately your data was leaked in the recent hacking of Ashley Madison and I now have your information. If you would like to prevent me from finding and sharing this information with your significant other send exactly 2.00000054 bitcoins (approx. value $450 USD) to the following address…

If Team GrayFlay (or any other blackmailer, for that matter) emailed all 32 million account holders, and just 0.01% of them agreed to pay up the $450 (£288) ransom, it would still earn them $1.4 million dollars (£0.9 million).

So I guess this is bullish news?  Not sure how I feel about making a profit on the heels of extortion though.  

Nobody will pay that if they have half a brain.

Betting that everyone in a pool of 32 million has >1/2 brin is a _____ bet?
Fill in blank.

All in.  Bitcoin is going up! 

Sorry that I have NOT been following you Bitchick, but I thought that several months back you sold a large portion of your bitcoins (at least your husband did). 

When did you get back into the "all in" sentiment?  In other words, for how long have you been buying back in?

Well, thankfully husband only had us sell 25%.  (like it or not, he was right about selling.  It is never fun to tell husbands they are right though. LOL)  But we actually cannot buy much back because we have a daughter starting college in a couple weeks.  It is a private university too and we are planning on paying for it all without any loans.  We have most of the year covered but I really hope we have another bubble by the halving next Summer. 

[billyjoeallen]

Robin Hood is a better fit, tho seen from a Libertarian perspective, strictly a criminal.  He took it upon himself to redistribute the wealth from the deserving rich to the lazy poor, like that commie socialist Obama.

Bullshit. Robin Hood returned the wealth that the State had stolen from the poor.



The point is there is no logical reason why blackmail should be illegal, regardless of how unpleasant it is. There is a utilitarian case to be made that it does more good than harm. From the natural rights perspective, it doesn't violate any.  

Not sure what you mean by "natural rights," right to privacy, right to bear arms, that sort of thing?  Society makes laws based on its mores, and society finds blackmail morally objectionable.  As our mores morph, laws follow.  Sodomy used to be illegal, marrying your 13-yr.-old cousin was a-ok.  Now that's changed.
Judicial  law makes no claim to being eternal and immutable, like God's law, or laws of physics.  It's just a bunch of formal rules.

As far as utility value of an act, utility to whom?  Gassing Jews and faggots may have had great utility value, as most murders do (to those committing them).  As most crime does.  Not sue how utility of an act plays into all this.

Utility to whom? didn't you just say "Society makes laws based on its mores, and society finds blackmail morally objectionable.  As our mores morph, laws follow."??  

My whole argument is that Society's mores are logically inconsistent.  When a government employee or an unpaid volunteer do something that's legal and even encouraged suddenly becomes illegal and evil when done for profit.  

Mores DO change. Empires, nations and entire civilizations come and go and excessive reliance on centralized power is usually an end stage signal of decline.

Civil laws effectively force people through threat of violence to behave a certain way and you think that's fine, but when we use shame to alter behavior, that's terrible.  No wonder we have so many single mothers and broken homes. We are becoming a nation of bastards. literally.  Society will not survive if the beta males who physically built it can't even have paternity assurance as compensation for their endless toil.  Work to give half your money to the State and the other half to support a cheating wife and a kid you don't even know is yours?  

I know already what the response is: "That guy's not a victim. He's a loser"  He chose poorly. Well, he's a loser alright- but he's a loser because he thought the game was "win-win or no deal" when the game is between different groups of parasites and his blood is the prize.

I'm not gonna fight the system. I'm gonna sit back, watch it destroy itself and do my best to avoid getting dragged down with it. Let hackers hack. Let blackmailers blackmail.  Let rioters riot and let the State go to Hell. This isn't even my society anymore.

[rebuilder]

Well, this is even more off-topic than usual! Re: why blackmail is objectionable:

As a blackmailer, you're either threatening to release damaging information about someone who's done nothing wrong, or offering to let a wrongdoer off the hook in exchange for money. Neither seems exactly proper.

[billyjoeallen]

Well, this is even more off-topic than usual! Re: why blackmail is objectionable:

As a blackmailer, you're either threatening to release damaging information about someone who's done nothing wrong, or offering to let a wrongdoer off the hook in exchange for money. Neither seems exactly proper.

Someone who's done nothing wrong won't pay, so the threat is a waste of energy. Otherwise, the blackmailer is letting a wrong doer who's NOT on the hook stay off the hook and pay for his (or her) misdeeds in a different way that possibly causes less collateral damage.

Maybe the issue should be framed thusly: Why is blackmail considered more morally (and therefor legally) more objectionable than adultery?

Ashley Madison openly encourages adultery and gets paid to do so and it's all perfectly legal, but Bitcoin merely fails to actively prevent behavior that is considered bad for arbitrary and inconsistent reasons, and we need to be regulated out of existence.

Sorry, but you can't enforce the unenforceable and you can't permit the impermissible.  The market has been around longer than the State and will be around long after it is dead.

[rebuilder]

Someone who's done nothing wrong won't pay, so the threat is a waste of energy or letting a wrong doer who's NOT on the hook stay off the hook and pay for his (or her) misdeeds in a different way that possibly causes less collateral damage.

Oh, they'll pay if doing nothing wrong can still get you in trouble. For an extreme example, try being gay in a country where that's illegal and/or will lead to death threats if known.

[aztecminer]

Saw an article this morning.  http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-blackmail-of-ashley-madison-users-has-already-begun/ar-BBlXLTH?li=AA54ur I guess a extortionist group called "Team GrayFlay" is already threatening to blackmail Ashley Madison users in the hack and they want payment only in Bitcoin.  From the article

Unfortunately your data was leaked in the recent hacking of Ashley Madison and I now have your information. If you would like to prevent me from finding and sharing this information with your significant other send exactly 2.00000054 bitcoins (approx. value $450 USD) to the following address…

If Team GrayFlay (or any other blackmailer, for that matter) emailed all 32 million account holders, and just 0.01% of them agreed to pay up the $450 (£288) ransom, it would still earn them $1.4 million dollars (£0.9 million).

So I guess this is bullish news?  Not sure how I feel about making a profit on the heels of extortion though.  

Nobody will pay that if they have half a brain.

Betting that everyone in a pool of 32 million has >1/2 brin is a _____ bet?
Fill in blank.

All in.  Bitcoin is going up!  

Sorry that I have NOT been following you Bitchick, but I thought that several months back you sold a large portion of your bitcoins (at least your husband did).  

When did you get back into the "all in" sentiment?  In other words, for how long have you been buying back in?

Well, thankfully husband only had us sell 25%.  (like it or not, he was right about selling.  It is never fun to tell husbands they are right though. LOL)  But we actually cannot buy much back because we have a daughter starting college in a couple weeks.  It is a private university too and we are planning on paying for it all without any loans.  We have most of the year covered but I really hope we have another bubble by the halving next Summer.  

u are very wise person.. i have two more college payments and my son made it through college with no school loans.. i still have all my bitcoins though.. like you ... i don't spend my sons college money on bitcoins. however, i do try to figure out how i am going to get more bitcoins. obviously i not great at trading.. i haven't lost yet though.. i think i am ahead atm. that is because i dont trade on leverage. i stay away from okcoin and bitfinex.. although i'm not sure if coinbase exchange is better .. i certainly haven't made any profits since i been there. .. i think the entire bitcoin market has changed since coinbase came online... and ripple.. i think those guys just want to be in the central bank club. are we sure there really is even a such thing as "the ripple effect" .. i think not because it doesnt matter what is going on in the economic world ripple is not affected.. they are in their own world. and apparently LTC in halving in just four more days! http://www.litecoinblockhalf.com/

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[Feri22]

This Gavin guy is worse for Btc than a 51% attack....

Please elaborate...

He was the one who took Bitcoin development after Satoshi dissappeared...also try to read his views on the subject here http://gavinandresen.ninja/ .... both sides have their true...but since bitcoin core devs and related people to Blockstream are using hard censorship, FUD and other stupid ways how to enforce their way...i don't want the Bitcoin Core is the one bitcoin client only...this is centralized development and i dont want that...i want people / miners can vote what is the best for us...Bitcoin core devs are just pissed, that they are losing power to control bitcoin development and make the bitcoin their way...no thanks

[billyjoeallen]

Someone who's done nothing wrong won't pay, so the threat is a waste of energy or letting a wrong doer who's NOT on the hook stay off the hook and pay for his (or her) misdeeds in a different way that possibly causes less collateral damage.

Oh, they'll pay if doing nothing wrong can still get you in trouble. For an extreme example, try being gay in a country where that's illegal and/or will lead to death threats if known.

If you live in a country like that and you think BLACKMAIL is the problem, then I really can't help you. That's so dumb, I can't formulate a response.

Edit: ok, I'll try. You are asking hypothetically, if you live in a society that sanctions evil behavior and punishes morally neutral behavior, is blackmail bad? right? No, it's the sanction of evil behavior (gay bashing) that is bad. without the sanction of evil, blackmail would be effective exclusively against bad behavior.

That's not the question I posed. I am contending that that is EXACTLY the society we live in with regard to adultery and blackmail.  The question is why is blackmail so evil it is outlawed while adultery is tolerated?

Why is blackmail worse than adultery?  Riddle me that. Blackmail can be used in theory to punish the innocent but usually punishes the wrongdoing, where as adultery can in theory be used to punish the wrongdoing of a spouse, but usually punishes the innocent.

A society that punishes Batman but tolerates the Joker is bizzaro world.

[Fatman3001]

Someone who's done nothing wrong won't pay, so the threat is a waste of energy or letting a wrong doer who's NOT on the hook stay off the hook and pay for his (or her) misdeeds in a different way that possibly causes less collateral damage.

Oh, they'll pay if doing nothing wrong can still get you in trouble. For an extreme example, try being gay in a country where that's illegal and/or will lead to death threats if known.

If you live in a country like that and you think BLACKMAIL is the problem, then I really can't help you. That's so dumb, I can't formulate a response.

This is golden.

I will print it out and hang it on the wall.

[rebuilder]

Oh, they'll pay if doing nothing wrong can still get you in trouble. For an extreme example, try being gay in a country where that's illegal and/or will lead to death threats if known.

If you live in a country like that and you think BLACKMAIL is the problem, then I really can't help you. That's so dumb, I can't formulate a response.

How about a country where what you do in your free time can get you kicked out of your job, because some things are considered crimes although there's no victim?

[billyjoeallen]

Oh, they'll pay if doing nothing wrong can still get you in trouble. For an extreme example, try being gay in a country where that's illegal and/or will lead to death threats if known.

If you live in a country like that and you think BLACKMAIL is the problem, then I really can't help you. That's so dumb, I can't formulate a response.

How about a country where what you do in your free time can get you kicked out of your job, because some things are considered crimes although there's no victim?

Again, that's exactly what I'm asking. In the free market, every trade is win-win or no deal. No victims. One party may benefit more than the other but they both benefit or the trade doesn't happen. There is no "victim" in backmail. Actions have consequences and offering someone a choice as to which consequences they face is a simple business proposal. I'm guessing Bill Clinton would have preferred Linda Tripp make such a proposal. 

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