Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Ultrafinery]

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This type of idiocy is often repeated but absolutely misguided.

The term CASH stems from the notion that Bitcoin, like cash, is a bearer instrument, not that it should be freely spent on trinklets at no cost.

Right on!
*Reducing* the blocksize is what really needs to be done. Make garbage transactions (all transactions below 1,000 BTC) impossible, due to cost. The 'I want more shit for free' brigade will pretty much *have* to hodl then.
Scarcity maximized => price skyrockets => everybody's happy

[AlexGR]

In short, no different from you accepting only rubles, and me having only pesos. This sounds like the worst of both worlds, no?

Eh, no. Because the issue is pretty much solvable.

Not seeing the difference. I'll quote your 'solutions,' and show that they are identical to using different fiat currencies:

My "no" was not in terms of dissimilarity but in terms of "the worst of both worlds". You make it sound like it's a nightmare scenario when it is not.

I see. So if no one uses the BTC bloccahin, and everyone uses LTC, we're still all using Bitcoin, correct?

Bitcoin as a network protocol, blockchain technology etc, yes. Bitcoin as the BTC currency, BTC blockchain etc, no.

But why involve Bitcoin at all? If [crypto]rubles is your chain of choice, why not have the exchange convert all the small
transactions directly into cryptorubles, and, at the end of the day, withdraw it in a single transaction?

1) Convertibility to FIAT (BTC is the gateway to fiat)

2) Volatility reasons. Bitcoin is much more stable as a store of value than most altcoins which have very large fluctuations.

If DOGE goes down 10% without me locking it into BTC, it's like having sold 30 cups of coffee (of the 300 total) for free.

Who is running this "decentralized exchange'? Wat's the incentive? How many nodes? All the nodes will need to have copies of each and every blockchain, no? You think that is a trivial coding problem?!
Your 'decentralized exchange' sounds like an uber-complex cryptocurrency in itself.

Is NXT an uber-complex cryptoccurency for developing something to that effect? http://multigateway.org/

[marcus_of_augustus]

Bitcoin has already demonstrated functionality with 2 of the 3 main uses of money;

1) medium of exchange (Bitcoin the value transfer network)

2) store of value (bitcoin the currency)

When the medium of exchangers are in the ascendancy the network gets abused, value goes down. When the store of valuers are dominating the network gets nurtured, value goes up.

Expect this to see-saw continually until the "unit of accounters" arrive on the scene.

[ImI]

Breakout a'comin

[billyjoeallen]

When someone leaves their house, don't they lock the door? The answer is yes.

If one leaves their house they have less than 0.01% of their house being broken into. YET THEY LOCK THE DOOR.

By your rationale it would be dumb to do so... "just because one left their house doesn't automatically mean that his house will be broken into, I mean look at the statistics of how few times this has happened!!!".

If there was a gang of thieves prowling the neighborhood with most doors unlocked who were targeting houses with locked doors on the suspicion that those houses had more valuables, then it would increase not decrease your risk.

That may be a stretch to imagine, but I have to work with your metaphor. The point is that we have to judge RELATIVE risks.  That is not only not a fallacy but is prudent.  There is a risk associated with larger blocks. I'm not denying that. But we are not even having a meaningful discussion if you refuse to admit that there are risks associated with NOT allowing bigger blocks. 

What we have to do is weigh the risks and see which one is greater.  If you are not willing to do that, then I have to assume you are not even arguing in good faith and the only appropriate response to you is ridicule.

[hdbuck]

...
This type of idiocy is often repeated but absolutely misguided.

The term CASH stems from the notion that Bitcoin, like cash, is a bearer instrument, not that it should be freely spent on trinklets at no cost.

Right on!
*Reducing* the blocksize is what really needs to be done. Make garbage transactions (all transactions below 1,000 BTC) impossible, due to cost. The 'I want more shit for free' brigade will pretty much *have* to hodl then.
Scarcity maximized => price skyrockets => everybody's happy

choochoo

[Ultrafinery]

My "no" was not in terms of dissimilarity but in terms of "the worst of both worlds". You make it sound like it's a nightmare scenario when it is not.

Either shopping at a bazaar where all the dealers use different fiat money & you have to exchange money all the time is a nightmare, or it's not. It's certainly not as frictionless as everybody using the *same* kind of money, no?
Given a choice, which would *you* choose?

I see. So if no one uses the BTC bloccahin, and everyone uses LTC, we're still all using Bitcoin, correct?

Bitcoin as a network protocol, blockchain technology etc, yes. Bitcoin as the BTC currency, BTC blockchain etc, no.

Why would anyone hold bitcoins (the tokens), if no one uses the particular instance of blockchain (the Bitcoin blockchain)?
Wouldn't LTC be the gold standard (since everyone uses it)? I feel like I've reduced the problem to 2+2, you agree that it's 2+2, but insist that it's still not 4.

But why involve Bitcoin at all? If [crypto]rubles is your chain of choice, why not have the exchange convert all the small
transactions directly into cryptorubles, and, at the end of the day, withdraw it in a single transaction?

1) Convertibility to FIAT (BTC is the gateway to fiat)

The only reason exchanges don't let you convert shitcoins directly into fiat (please, not as a grammar nazi, but as a gearhead: FIAT=acronym, Italian car manufacturer; fiat=money as we know it) is because legit exchanges don't want to bother. If an exchange can legally handle fiat, it can legally turn shitcoins directly into fiat. Without the pointless extra step of first turning them into BTC.

2) Volatility reasons. Bitcoin is much more stable as a store of value than most altcoins which have very large fluctuations.

Fiat is the least volotile, just convert straight into fiat. Hey, make it easy on yourself, use fiat throughout & avoid all this rigamarole.

Who is running this "decentralized exchange'? Wat's the incentive? How many nodes? All the nodes will need to have copies of each and every blockchain, no? You think that is a trivial coding problem?!
Your 'decentralized exchange' sounds like an uber-complex cryptocurrency in itself.

Is NXT an uber-complex cryptoccurency for developing something to that effect? http://multigateway.org/

Not too familiar with NXT, but doesn't it have its own tokens, imaginatively called NXT?

>>>billyjoeallen: the whole lock analogy is inappropriate. The bloating thieves don't get anything of value by bloating the blockchain, shit inside house stays inside.  What they do is essentially piss on your stoop, thus decreasing the attractiveness of your neighborhood and, potentially, dropping property values.

[billyjoeallen]

Bitcoin has already demonstrated functionality with 2 of the 3 main uses of money;

1) medium of exchange (Bitcoin the value transfer network)

2) store of value (bitcoin the currency)

When the medium of exchangers are in the ascendancy the network gets abused, value goes down. When the store of valuers are dominating the network gets nurtured, value goes up.

Expect this to see-saw continually until the "unit of accounters" arrive on the scene.

I'm one of those storers of value. The ways I measure that value include the access to blockspace for colored coins and timestamps etc.  With less access, there is less value. 

You'll never get unit of accounters with a value that fluctuates so wildly. 

Money has five properties: Recognizable, portable, fungible, scarce and divisible.

Small blocks make bitcoin less divisible for practical purposes. Lack of divisibility is one reason why gold is no longer used as money, even in black markets. Been tracking gold prices lately?  You want that to happen for Bitcoin?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[brg444]

Money has five properties: Recognizable, portable, fungible, scarce and divisible.

Small blocks make bitcoin less divisible for practical purposes. Lack of divisibility is one reason why gold is no longer used as money, even in black markets. Been tracking gold prices lately?  You want that to happen for Bitcoin?

 

You should really stop posting. It's like you can't help but embarass yourself.

[billyjoeallen]

>>>billyjoeallen: the whole lock analogy is inappropriate. The bloating thieves don't get anything of value by bloating the blockchain, shit inside house stays inside.  What they do is essentially piss on your stoop, thus decreasing the attractiveness of your neighborhood and, potentially, dropping property values.

Timestamps aren't valuable? microtransactions aren't valuable? equities and derivatives markets with low overhead and transparency aren't valuable? Low friction trade isn't valuable?

I suggest you look up "valuable" in the dictionary.

[ssmc2]

Anyone else have that strong sensation that we're going to have a nice Xmas gift of above 500?

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Anyone else have that strong sensation that we're going to have a nice Xmas gift of above 500?

I hope so. We'll have to see what people do with their Christmas bonus in their wage packet

[Ultrafinery]

>>>billyjoeallen: the whole lock analogy is inappropriate. The bloating thieves don't get anything of value by bloating the blockchain, shit inside house stays inside.  What they do is essentially piss on your stoop, thus decreasing the attractiveness of your neighborhood and, potentially, dropping property values.

Timestamps aren't valuable? microtransactions aren't valuable? equities and derivatives markets with low overhead and transparency aren't valuable? Low friction trade isn't valuable?
I suggest you look up "valuable" in the dictionary.

[img http://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/files/2013/12/im.jpg[/img]

Have the thieves stolen any timestamps from you, by bloating the blockchain? How many microtransactions did they make off with?
How many equities and derivatives markets with low overhead and transparency?
If not obvious, no, no they did not. They may have made it difficult for others to use your bloated blockchain, but have made off with none of your goodies.
If I burn down your house, sure, you have to rebuild it/buy a new one, just as if I have stolen it. But I didn't steal it. See what I'm saying?

>>>brg444
I think he meant "makes small transactions impractical." Imagine if every fiat transaction cost you a dollar to make. Sure, you still have pennies and dimes and stuff, but your prices can't go down to a penny anymore, thus "less divisible for practical purposes."

[r0ach]

Fiat is the least volotile, just convert straight into fiat. Hey, make it easy on yourself, use fiat throughout & avoid all this rigamarole.

The JIDF, pro-central banking, Zionist shills are back after they've already created 5000 other spam accounts.  Your spam accounts are useless now that everyone knows where they originate from.  You'll have to think up a new strategy besides being a weak, Woody Allen figure trying to manipulate things from behind a curtain because it doesn't work anymore:

[marcus_of_augustus]

Anyone else have that strong sensation that we're going to have a nice Xmas gift of above 500?

dunno, looks like the derp army is pretty butthurt with Hearn's ragequit defection to the bankster darkside and subsequent total disintegration of the White Knight XT project ... they could crap the place up for quite some time with their butthurt herp-derp, more accumulation phase I guess until they fork off or accept the technical realities of the day ...

tl;dr too many deflated bruised egos on display for a new constructive phase right now.

[brg444]

>>>brg444
I think he meant "makes small transactions impractical." Imagine if every fiat transaction cost you a dollar to make. Sure, you still have pennies and dimes and stuff, but your prices can't go down to a penny anymore, thus "less divisible for practical purposes."

Except with Bitcoin there are alternatives. If you wanna send pennies around why not use Changetip? Do you really need 700,000,000 GH/s of security for your latte purchase?

[billyjoeallen]

>>>billyjoeallen: the whole lock analogy is inappropriate. The bloating thieves don't get anything of value by bloating the blockchain, shit inside house stays inside.  What they do is essentially piss on your stoop, thus decreasing the attractiveness of your neighborhood and, potentially, dropping property values.

Timestamps aren't valuable? microtransactions aren't valuable? equities and derivatives markets with low overhead and transparency aren't valuable? Low friction trade isn't valuable?
I suggest you look up "valuable" in the dictionary.

Have the thieves stolen any timestamps from you, by bloating the blockchain? How many microtransactions did they make off with?
How many equities and derivatives markets with low overhead and transparency?
If not obvious, no, no they did not. If I burn down your house, sure, you have to rebuild it/buy a new one, but I didn't steal it.

People who buy blockspace can do whatever the hell they want with it. It's theirs. They bought it. If I can sell 12 eggs profitably for $1 but scale up to sell 144 eggs profitably for $2, what the hell do I care if the buyer eggs a house or make an omelette?   The market rewards them for using resources wisely and punishes them for wasting them.  Who am I to say "you don't need more than 12 eggs" ESPECIALLY when i can benefit from economies of scale when I sell?  

The cost of running a node is trivial. I know. I'm running one (XT). The opportunity cost of pricing out most of our customers is huge.  Understand this: we sell blockspace. If we can sell a lot more for just marginally more overhead, everybody wins.  Greater efficiency is the only free lunch in the universe.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Anyone else have that strong sensation that we're going to have a nice Xmas gift of above 500?

dunno, looks like the derp army is pretty butthurt with Hearn's ragequit defection to the bankster darkside and subsequent total disintegration of the White Knight XT project ... they could crap the place up for quite some time with their butthurt herp-derp, more accumulation phase I guess until they fork off or accept the technical realities of the day ...

tl;dr too many deflated bruised egos on display for a new constructive phase right now.

I appreciate your tone. You have a warm, soothing way about you.

I believe Gavin is now in charge of XT.

[Ultrafinery]

>>>brg444
I think he meant "makes small transactions impractical." Imagine if every fiat transaction cost you a dollar to make. Sure, you still have pennies and dimes and stuff, but your prices can't go down to a penny anymore, thus "less divisible for practical purposes."

Except with Bitcoin there are alternatives. If you wanna send pennies around why not use Changetip? Do you really need 700,000,000 GH/s of security for your latte purchase?

Hell no I don't need 700,000,000 GH/s of 'security' for my latte purchase. That's like having a billion dollar lock on my front door and a screen door out back - *getting the hashrate up that high does nothing for security, especially since 95% of it is in the hands of 9 people.*
Bonus: those 9 people are friends.
Get it?

And who sells latte for Changetip? Inquiring minds want to know!

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People who buy blockspace can do whatever the hell they want with it. It's theirs.

Who dat? Who be buyin' blockspace?