Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[crumbs]

... Bringing back all those triliions of offshore dollars and DIRECTLY buying countries rather than just buying political influence. All the while being viewed as 'saviours' by the sheeple.

It is possible. The corporate endgame ...
...

I wonder if the "directly" part is necessary or even desirable for them.  Why get dirty when there's no need?  Why install sockpuppets when you can control the real thing?

[wachtwoord]

I fail to see the chicken connection.

So you are living in a vegan community? Do you grow Hemp or Lupines?

Do I really have to explain how an economy works? You don't need to produce anything yourself. Furthermore, chickens are non-mandatory in a diet. I don't eat chicken often but prefer fish, beef and pork.

Do you understand the causal relationship between urbanization and institutional violence?

I'm going to cut off this discussion because you make zero sense and frankly it's completely off topic.

[crumbs]

I fail to see the chicken connection.

So you are living in a vegan community? Do you grow Hemp or Lupines?

Do I really have to explain how an economy works? You don't need to produce anything yourself. Furthermore, chickens are non-mandatory in a diet. I don't eat chicken often but prefer fish, beef and pork.

Do you understand the causal relationship between urbanization and institutional violence?

I'm going to cut off this discussion because you make zero sense and frankly it's completely off topic.

He might be asking you to fill in too many blanks, but it's far from nonsense.  Besides, >no volume at all<

[phoenix1]

... Bringing back all those triliions of offshore dollars and DIRECTLY buying countries rather than just buying political influence. All the while being viewed as 'saviours' by the sheeple.

It is possible. The corporate endgame ...
...

I wonder if the "directly" part is necessary or even desirable for them.  Why get dirty when there's no need?  Why install sockpuppets when you can control the real thing?

At it the end of the day it would look the same ... the amount of influence that would have been bought would leave people under no illusions as to who was in control. The reason to own would be to ensure that you were absolutely in change of making the rules - no illusion of democracy anymore - an unelected corportate congress.

[molecular]

If your libertarian romantic ever plays out I rather think we are facing the extinction of the human race.  

Why would rejecting institutionalised violence cause the extinction of the human race? Are peaceful people incapable of functioning without being threatened from day to day?

Institutional violence is just a result of urbanization, the entire population is urbanized, and dependent of the financial system to keep them from dying from starvation.

IF you are serious start a farm.

So you think urban population would starve if it wasn't for the current implementation of the financial sector and/or institutional violence?

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

[molecular]

If your libertarian romantic ever plays out I rather think we are facing the extinction of the human race. 

Nah, just the part that should never have existed in the first place.

So how many chickens do you own?

Do chicken derivatives count?

[KS]

If your libertarian romantic ever plays out I rather think we are facing the extinction of the human race. 

Nah, just the part that should never have existed in the first place.

So how many chickens do you own?

Do chicken derivatives count?

This talk about Argentina makes me think bats are a better bet. Their derivatives (guano) has got value at least. Then again they probably don' taste as good.

[ElectricMucus]

If your libertarian romantic ever plays out I rather think we are facing the extinction of the human race.  

Why would rejecting institutionalised violence cause the extinction of the human race? Are peaceful people incapable of functioning without being threatened from day to day?

Institutional violence is just a result of urbanization, the entire population is urbanized, and dependent of the financial system to keep them from dying from starvation.

IF you are serious start a farm.

So you think urban population would starve if it wasn't for the current implementation of the financial sector and/or institutional violence?

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

I'm saying that institutional violence is caused by the urbanization. This is very easy to understand as institutional violence is merely an expression of the (violent tendencies of) individuals in the bureaucratic system which in turn is a result of the dramatic increase of urbanization. (Both the tendencies and the importance of the bureaucratic system itself)

[molecular]

If your libertarian romantic ever plays out I rather think we are facing the extinction of the human race. 

Why would rejecting institutionalised violence cause the extinction of the human race? Are peaceful people incapable of functioning without being threatened from day to day?

Institutional violence is just a result of urbanization, the entire population is urbanized, and dependent of the financial system to keep them from dying from starvation.

IF you are serious start a farm.

So you think urban population would starve if it wasn't for the current implementation of the financial sector and/or institutional violence?

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

I'm saying that institutional violence is caused by the urbanization. This is very easy to understand as institutional violence is merely an expression of the individuals in the bureaucratic system which in turn is a result of the dramatic increase of urbanization.

I can probably see bureaucratic system => institutional violence, but I still fail to see how bureaucratic system necessarily follows from an increase in urbanization.

[ElectricMucus]

I can probably see bureaucratic system => institutional violence, but I still fail to see how bureaucratic system necessarily follows from an increase in urbanization.

That's how it works historically and empirically.

[gandhibt]

We could have government, laws and taxes in bitcoin world also. Governments just would be for people not for kings (banksters). If you choose to live here, you will do it by law or otherwise you can move elsewhere. Governments (or countries) would be in more equal position to one another if there would not be kings who globally dictate all governments below them.

EDIT. To make myself more clear, it's about power (money) and how power is divided to people. In this system groups that have power have become too small and in this system this power just keep on rising. This is the biggest bubble in the world which is about to explode with the help of bitcoin.

[crumbs]

...but I still fail to see how bureaucratic system necessarily follows from an increase in urbanization.

Need of coherent infrastructure?   It's not obvious?

[molecular]

...but I still fail to see how bureaucratic system necessarily follows from an increase in urbanization.

Need of coherent infrastructure?   It's not obvious?

In order to fly you need an airplane. Isn't that obvious?

[crumbs]

We could have government, laws and taxes in bitcoin world also. Governments just would be for people not for kings (banksters). If you choose to live here, you will do it by law or otherwise you can move elsewhere. Governments (or countries) would be in more equal position to one another if there would not be kings who globally dictate all governments below them.

EDIT. To make myself more clear, it's about power (money) and how power is divided to people. In this system groups that have power have become too small and in this system this power just keep on rising. This is the biggest bubble in the world which is about to explode with the help of bitcoin.

Is this a variant of the 1% controlling 40% of the wealth argument?  In that case, money = money.  After the initial reshuffling of the deck, the same disparities will begin to emerge if the rules of the game don't change.  Bitcoin already has its millionaires & paupers, and even in this microcosm the spread between the haves & have nots is pretty big.

[crumbs]

...but I still fail to see how bureaucratic system necessarily follows from an increase in urbanization.

Need of coherent infrastructure?   It's not obvious?

In order to fly you need an airplane. Isn't that obvious?

I guess i'm assuming you'll extrapolate along conventional lines.  Are you saying that coherent infrastructure emerges without any guidance, or guided only by "invisible hand"?  If everyone just starts building, we don't need any plans or leaders, that sort of thing?

Edit:  There are many ways to fly -- jumping off bridges, being shot out of cannons or slingshots, making yourself a tail of a giant kite or stepping on a landmine -- is that your point?

[gandhibt]

We could have government, laws and taxes in bitcoin world also. Governments just would be for people not for kings (banksters). If you choose to live here, you will do it by law or otherwise you can move elsewhere. Governments (or countries) would be in more equal position to one another if there would not be kings who globally dictate all governments below them.

EDIT. To make myself more clear, it's about power (money) and how power is divided to people. In this system groups that have power have become too small and in this system this power just keep on rising. This is the biggest bubble in the world which is about to explode with the help of bitcoin.

Is this a variant of the 1% controlling 40% of the wealth argument?  In that case, money = money.  After the initial reshuffling of the deck, the same disparities will begin to emerge if the rules of the game don't change.  Bitcoin already has its millionaires & paupers, and even in this microcosm the spread between the haves & have nots is pretty big.

Sure, but the point is that in bitcoin world big money doesn't automatically mean more money, because you can't print and loan bitcoins. That's pretty simple.

[ChartBuddy]

[crumbs]

...
Sure, but the point is that in bitcoin world big money doesn't automatically mean more money, because you can't print and loan bitcoins. That's pretty simple.

You don't think there were tycoons & beggars with gold standard?  We had the silly thing in US 'til the seventies!  As far as lending with Bitcoin, i can talk you through many interesting lending schemes where the total number of bitcoins in circulation is not the ceiling (hint:  when you borrow a million dollars from a bank, do you take it home in a trunk?)

[ChartBuddy]

[Its About Sharing]

The governments have made a trap for themselves by bailing out the banks, the banks have them over a barrel and they have no way out now.  If they stop QE and bank bailouts then the banks pull the rug out from under the economy and it collapses.  If they don't stop QE and bailouts then the population become so impoverished, desperate and angry that the result will eventually be a huge angry mob turning up at Parliament to lynch the lot of them.

What the governments should have done was to seize all the assets of the failing banks, jail those responsible and then compensate the people who had money in the banks. That of course would have been quite a blow to the economy but at least the total cost would have been finite, and possible to pay off and recover from eventually.  Instead because the government and the banks are the same thing they chose the route of bailing out the banks, now they're desperately scrabbling for money to fill this bottomless money pit, a task that is impossible.  The way that they've responded to this situation means that whatever they do the economy is now doomed.

I have a feeling that will still happen...

Regarding getting out of fiat. We are not going to collapse real soon (relatively speaking). Silver and Gold at these prices is insurance as is BTC. But having some food and water for you and your family AND neighbors is going to be the smart move if the Shit hits the fan. I just hope these evil leaders don't lead us into another war...

We still have time to let BTC correct for a few months and then move fiat into it... (I hope).

The problem is that this does nothing to address the huge debts that the governments have accumulated and continue to accumulate. We will more than likely see bail-in's in future, and banks being shutdown, but the Gov's (and by extension citizens) are still left holding the overflowing bag they have been forced into carrying thus far. And in the crisis scenario you are talking about, we will end up with economic stagnation. Growth will collapse, The Greatest Depression will be finally revealed to all.

Have you seen the TV series 'Continuum' ? Set partly in a future in which corporations rule the world directly after bailing out countries when their govs collapsed. It is not entirely impossible - pull back the curtain and that is what is already going on. The upcoming cirsis could well provide them with the opportunity to just get rid of the middlemen and appear as saviours. Bringing back all those triliions of offshore dollars and DIRECTLY buying countries, by bailing out the bankrupt govs, rather than just buying political influence. All the while being viewed as 'saviours' by the sheeple.

It is *possible*. The corporate endgame ...
And the first thing they would probably do ... issue a new (digital ?) currency

Like you, I agree that none of this is going to happen overnight (until it does!), but we are not getting out of this without a whole world of pain disproportionately doled out to those who least deserve it.

I should probably have said that I don't have much money and live minimally. If I did have 100's of thousands I would not have all of it in Ferns (fiat).
I wasn't offering a suggestion to correct the problem though. I don't see there being one. We are past the point of no return.

Short  term (say 6 months), what is more that likely to lose more value, the USD or BTC? I'd say BTC and it isn't close. So, I'm just hoping and playing that. Before the USD collapses you will see symptoms all over the world of other monies collapsing first. We are not quite there yet, though when it happens I think it will be quite sudden. We are seeing the early symptoms though and I imagine in the next 6 months there might be an escalation with more EU countries needing money and perhaps another bail in. When that next bail in happens, that will be a tipping point (depending on the country of course.)

Anyway, my idea is to get in BTC and then mostly stay there, maybe use 20% to trade in and out and build a bit.

What you said though is a good warning to take heed. We are all talking about a coming collapse but really don't understand how messy (and needed) it will be. By needed I mean getting those in power out of power.

Thx for the series recommendation, I'll look it up.

IAS