Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Rosewater Foundation]

I followed Taleb on Twitter for awhile.  He has a thin skin and can’t handle journalistic criticism of his latest book.  So he comes across as a petulant child.  There are enough children in the cryptosphere without adding them to my feed.

In the aftermath of the banking crisis The Wall Street Journal suggested that he “stock up on bodyguards.” Now he can deadlift 330 lbs. I haven't heard him say much about Bitcoin but I'd be bloody surprised if he wasn't a fan.

[JayJuanGee]

Segwit is working. LN is working. Transaction confirmation times are low, and fees are the lowest they've been in a long time. On LN they are non-existent. And the whole solution is supporting decentralization in the best way possible.

And yet people STILL want to bitch and find something wrong with the solution. And still bring up the block size shit like it even matters right now.

I'm so tired of the bullshit and I will call out anyone who brings that tired argument up again.

Sorry BCash shilling fucktards, but your goose is cooked. You lost. It's over. In fact, BCash never stood a chance. It was DOA.

You are being a tribalist again. That's not necessary if we actually did make the right choice.

Stop attempting to revise history, Ibian.

Segwit reached consensus, and 2x did not.    That is a pretty central reason why we currently have BTC with segwit but not with 2x, and BTC is not broken, and there is no need to rush into 2x, which really seems unnecessary at the moment, except merely as a talking point for whiners who are attacking bitcoin and convoluting issues (and you, Ibian, seem to be part of the problem when you are trying to support those kinds of supposed "better tech" arguments). 

[JayJuanGee]

Because miners producers do not have the same set of incentives that users consumers have and the bitcoin product exists to serve users consumers not miners producers, miners producers too exist to serve users consumers.

So...
Cryptocurrencies -- specifically the market for tx inclusion -- are the one and only special case where the laws of economics do not apply?

(As an aside, I'm quite sure that, when the producers shut off their alarm clock at oh-dark-thirty, and wearily drag themselves out of bed to face another long grim day of producing, that doing it for the benefit of the exalted consumers ain't first and foremost on their minds)

I don't have the patience to get into the weeds with you right now. I'm sure I could debate with you until the sun came up and you wouldn't yield, even if I was right and well articulated. Hopefully someone understood what I was saying.

Finally, you said something that makes some sense....     

[JayJuanGee]

It's necessary. Just a matter of when.

I'm not saying BTC doesn't need to eventually move over to larger blocks, but I support their slower, safer, forward-thinking, incremental approach to things.

I'll grant that Core's approach to scaling is slower than Cash's, but it certainly ain't safer.

Core is the name of the WALLET you trolling fuck.

True to form. Do you feel your statement has shown my assertion to be false? Because your reply is a mere irrelevancy.

You obnoxious fuck.  

What do you expect? I'm sure if I decided to post in the BCH thread and called it BCASH, all of your friends would jump down my throat.

Maybe. Personally, I just shrug it off. It is yet another irrelevancy meant to divert from the substance of dialogue. By calling it Core, I wasn't meaning to denigrate BTC. I erred. Sorry.

Though cAPSLOCK is still an obnoxious fuck.

If you can't bare to refer to BTC as Bitcoin, then just refer to it as BTC here. Fair enough?

If I do, can I expect that others will refrain from calling BCH BCash?

Yeah - that's what I thought.

If you do not have anything bad to say about bcash, then don't say anything....   especially in this thread.   

[JayJuanGee]

Governments are the ones that go to war. Ban their weapons.

Governments are the people, so why would it matter to distinguish banning from governments versus individuals?  All of the weapons amassing would just revert back to where it was.. first starting at a tribal level and then moving higher, and higher and higher...

In other words, distinguishing governments from people does not seem to help that kind of situation, when governments are an amalgamation of people.... even though the representativeness is going to vary from locale to locale and from country to country...  A BIG mess, ultimately.

[JayJuanGee]

I never understood why there is resistance? I dont get it, can somebody explain? 10k will break. Why are people building walls to hold it sub 10k as long as possible?

Usually the intent of a seller is to actually sell their coins, not to manipulate the market and "hold it down".

Here's another example of the fantasy world that you seem to live.

You know that spoofing and market manipulation is illegal, right? You're claiming that the majority of the sell book is just criminals and they are all putting themselves and tens of millions of dollars on the line so they can somehow subtly manipulate the market, while also risking that a large buyer just comes and eats the entire thing (which should happen if things are as bullish as you believe). That sounds like a tin foil hat conspiracy theory. The burden is on you to prove such absurdity.

You are just making shit up, and then saying that the burden is on me?  You are a looney tera bera, right?  Get a grip.

First of all, I was responding to your claim that BTC are not manipulated to hold down the price, which is just nonsense.  Peeps who are anti-bitcoin or are attempting to profit from keeping bitcoin prices low, definitely engage in manipulation to attempt to keep the price down as long as they can... and sometimes, they just lose control and can no longer keep the price down.. $500 was a decent example of such, and it happens a lot of other times too.  In early 2016 (around May 2016), when bearwhales lost control over sub-$500 bitcoins, they were not able to drive BTC prices back down to below $500.. there was too much momentum against them.

Regarding, market manipulation being illegal, you better quote a law about this that specifically applies to bitcoin.  Yes, market manipulation is illegal when it comes to traditionally traded assets that fall under the SEC, but bitcoin and various other crypto currencies have not yet fallen under such statutes, so there is a bit of wild, wild west when it comes to the legality of manipulation (which in other words means that manipulation is NOT illegal), so your nonsensical rambling about the illegal and criminal aspects is way out the fuck in la la fantasylandia....

Regarding your claim that I have some kind of burden to prove my points, get the fuck out of here, chiquita.... I don't have any burden to prove my points, because you are the one who is making outlandish claims about 1) initially the non-existence of bitcoin price manipulation and 2) subsequently, the supposed illegality and criminality of such non-existent manipulation...

You seem to be just engaging in distractive non-topics, which is what trolls do that don't really want to discuss reality but instead spout off nonsense and act as if they are actually saying something of important...

This is what you deserve tera bera.

[jojo69]

Governments are the people

are they Jay?


are they?

[arklan]

Governments are the people

are they Jay?


are they?

how about SHOULD be?

[vroom]

sometimes I think I'm in a JJG wall observer thread 

[JayJuanGee]

Usually the intent of a seller is to actually sell their coins, not to manipulate the market and "hold it down".

Here's another example of the fantasy world that you seem to live.

Surely, you can't be serious. Or are you just tweaking Torque now with your feigned conspiracy theory?

O.k.  jbrehera, bera, I do not need to devolve to the level of Torque's conspiracy theories to acknowledge manipulation in the market.

When Torque talks about conspiracy, he tends to go onto such nonsensical elaborations that seems to suggest that a whole year's worth of BTC price movement has been preplanned by a bunch of whales.  Anyhow, his extremism does not mean that some of the manipulation is not taking place or that there are not whales attempting to keep the price down as long as they are able to... of course, they lose control of such manipulations, but sometimes they are able to push the momentum of the market (and they may even chose to lose money in the short term because of benefits that they may get in other markets or otherwise). 

Incremental traders (like us) tend to not really give too many ratt's asses about some of this manipulation because it results in volatility, and in essence if our underlying assumptions (such as BTC's price going up in the long term) play out, then we still can profit considerably from the volatility and our ability to accumulate more BTC from incremental trading and using proceeds that we had gained on the way up to buy back on the way down.

TLDR: It is nearly as crazy to assert that the whole market is manipulated, as to assert that no manipulation exists at all.  I am not taking either of those extremes, and I am largely just calling bullshit on your cousin, tera bera's assertion, that no holding the price down manipulation exists.. which is the opposite extreme that Torque sometimes devolves into when he is seemingly emotionally asserting that BTC's manipulation had been preplanned from $250 to $19,700 and back down to $5,970, which is also a bunch of bullshit because even when manipulation is taking place, manipulators frequently lose control over the situation which has implications (and/or momentum) beyond anything that they had been expecting.

Maybe you deserve one of these, too, jbrehera bera?:

[JayJuanGee]

Governments are the people

are they Jay?

yes

are they?

ditto

Governments are the people

are they Jay?


are they?

how about SHOULD be?

How about I was going to respond in a smart-ass way, arkian, but I reflected for a few seconds and came to my senses, and largely, I agree with your proposed word change... even though we are considerably straying into OT territory.

sometimes I think I'm in a JJG wall observer thread  

Get a grip, peeps.

Sometimes, when I see multiple posts from me (yours truely) without any other posts in between, I begin to conclude that the rest of you peeps are slacking in your contributions to the thread.

You peeps need to pull your weight and post a bit of content, in order that I don't have so many posts that are showing up in a row....

Get a grip, vroom!!!!!! 

For your observation, you deserve one of these:




 

[arklan]

i rarely have anything useful to contribute.

also, just so ya know, that's not an i, it's an L.

[JayJuanGee]

i rarely have anything useful to contribute.

also, just so ya know, that's not an i, it's an L.

Whoops!!!!!


My bad.

[arklan]

i rarely have anything useful to contribute.

also, just so ya know, that's not an i, it's an L.

Whoops!!!!!


My bad.

no worries.

[Rosewater Foundation]

Governments are not the people. Nation states are horrible. Stalin could never have existed in a municipality.

Jay, stop trolling.

I think everybody is on drugs tonight. Is it?

[arklan]

Governments are not the people. Nation states are horrible. Stalin could never have existed in a municipality.

Jay, stop trolling.

I think everybody is on drugs tonight. Is it?

never touch the stuff.

[JayJuanGee]

Governments are not the people.

I think that I already sufficiently explained how I arrived at my tentative conclusions in this tangential topic.

Nation states are horrible.

There are horrible, people, too.  Much of what you are saying is relative, and subject to opinion variance.

Stalin could never have existed in a municipality.

What the fuck you talking about willis?  You give one example of one leader in history.. what does that have to do with the price of tea in china or anything else for that matter?

Jay, stop trolling.

Get the fuck out of here, with your blasphemy.  You deserve one of these, too.       .. a baby one.

I think everybody is on drugs tonight. Is it?

speak for yourself.  

[Rosewater Foundation]

I don't want to make a big thing about it. It's late and I'm probably on drugs. But the idea is bottom-up, not top-down. Central planning is dangerous and not antifragile. I mean, isn't that why we're here in the first place? 

[supertee]

Governments are not the people. Nation states are horrible. Stalin could never have existed in a municipality.

Jay, stop trolling.

I think everybody is on drugs tonight. Is it?

never touch the stuff.

Don't touch it, sniff it.

[JayJuanGee]

I don't want to make a big thing about it. It's late and I'm probably on drugs. But the idea is bottom-up, not top-down. Central planning is dangerous and not antifragile. I mean, isn't that why we're here in the first place? 

I only mentioned that the government is composed of the people based on a seemingly impractical comment from Elwar regarding taking away guns from government and not from the people, so there seems to be some disconnection regarding what governments are, exactly.

I am not going to try to pinpoint what governments are exactly, because there is a lot of local variance, but the essence of government is supposed to be representative of the people.. so if you try to say take the guns away from government and not from people, the comment almost makes no sense, except for in some kind of irrational anti-government propaganda that tends to distort what the what the government is, which, like I said, is supposed to be representing people in a community, sense.

Regarding, why many of us are into bitcoin, that is likely going to vary too... I understand that bitcoin has a lot of libertarian origins, but that mere fact does not mean that everyone subscribes to the seemingly vacuous anti-government views of that many libertarians seem to spout out in criticizing the current system.  Sure, there are problems with the current system, but merely getting rid of government does not seem like it is going to solve as many problems as it causes.

Anyhow there can be a lot of reason why many of us believe that cryptos push in the right direction in terms of bottom-up as you say, and so we may agree on some of that, and government does not automatically mean that something is centrally planned because governments can still solve some problems that the free market might not be so good at solving.  Furthermore, we might not even need to bring politics in the discussion at all in order to see benefits in bitcoin, whether personal prosperity and/or keeping checks on some of the inflationary money printing bullshit that goes on that ends up privileging the wealthy, so bitcoin can provide some opportunities for regular people to have a price appreciating asset that is much more difficult to manipulate as compared with fiat currencies... fiat currencies and governments are not going to be going away any time soon, even though they are likely going to need to adapt to some of the crazy ass seemingly more decentralized power that comes from bitcoin... and we have never had a technology that has fit into such a niche that is so likely to cause a lot of societal changes that are difficult to know in these early days, yet in these early days, some of us that might have fewer than 10 bitcoin, might well become very prosperous through the price appreciation of bitcoin in the coming 10 years, if we are so lucky to live that long and to be able to hang onto our bitcoins.