Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[erre]

Bitaddress.org works like a charm, the average Joe just need to verify he is on the right site and a safe place to store the paper wallet (and a backup). For pocket money there's plenty of mobile apps like mycelium.

Not your keys, not your bitcoin. That's not a meme, bitcoin was created for a trustless environment, if you trust a middle man you don't need bitcoin at all (besides speculation).

[cAPSLOCK]

What you're saying makes sense. LN for petty cash and everyday expenses, and on-chain for savings. I get the sense that once you put some coins in LN, they stay there forever until you spend them (this sounds wrong and it probably is, but it feels that way to me -- total LN noob).

No... that's about right.

They are just locked in a multisig address with your channel partner with some clever (albeit somewhat convoluted) safeguards so that eventually only one person can spend the coins at that address.

Theoretically sats in LN MS addresses can stay there indefinitely.  Though this is one of the areas it becomes interesting.  Because we are also both keeping a ledger of our transaction history for that channel which will continue to grow until it is finally executed.  This introduces some interesting realities.  For example you could drain all the bitcoin out of your channel but still leave it open. (This would be a pain in the ass)  And then you could just leave it up to the channel partner to close it eventually.  

So it is as Bob has put it, sort of a strange Bitcoin quantum state.  The money is spent and not spent at the same time.  You still have the lightning channel addresses with the bitcoin in them, but you have removed all your bitcoin and rode off into the sunset.

But it gets weirder still...  Say I establish a channel with you, then I pay myself ALL my share of the bitcoin from that channel.  So my sats have all shifted over to YOUR side now, and when the channel is close you will get all of them.  BUT... what if our channel is used by YOU to then make a payment.  What happens is this.  Another one of my channels send your payment out from MY outbound liquidity, and some of those sats in our shared channel scoot back over to me.

Lightning allows you to spend some of my OTHER outbound liquidity by shifting some of YOUR bitcoin in our channel over to my side.  This can be confusing when you are managing a lightning node because it's hard to know where your bitcoin has actually gone.  But all the math still adds up.

This brings one of my concerns/curiosities to the fore...

What happens when these channel states get ridiculously long?  Is there a point at which we really NEED to close the channel and start a fresh one?  Or can we really just keep these little channel ledgers going and going forever.

Fun to think about.

[bitebits]

Money moving on Bitcoin's blockchain is back near all time highs.

It's presently doing ~$190k per second. Compare this to $130k per second by Visa for US customers and $55k per second for Mastercard.

Lightning Network not included.

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1446760123062370307

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[cAPSLOCK]

Money moving on Bitcoin's blockchain is back near all time highs.

It's presently doing ~$190k per second. Compare this to $130k per second by Visa for US customers and $55k per second for Mastercard.

Lightning Network not included.

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1446760123062370307

I had to read that 3 times.

But what it means is Bitcoin has currently outpaced the amount of money being moved in the US by VISA+Mastercard?

That might be one of the biggest pieces of financial news of the year, and nearly no one knows. 

This is yet another rock solid proof of an asymmetric information situation, the magnitude of which is hard to overestimate.  Greatest wealth transfer in history, blah blah...  Still early, blah blah.

Now we just need the number of payments being made to outpace them as well.  I am sure we are still lagging there.  And that is the archetypal coffee transaction, and the LN is going to be a big part of that... not sure how long that takes.

[Richy_T]

To be fair, email is a pretty shitty protocol by today's standards. Encryption and signing should be standard. Some email clients kinda-sorta can but it's not what you could call well supported. Even the web with it's broke-ass root CA system has managed to get everyone moving to https.

Some emails do encrypt the data on the backend I think. I think most email providers encrypt it on the backend because it makes it easier for normal people to use the email without knowing how to encrypt. I think it is well supported and it makes it easy to use. You cannot expect a 80 year person to learn about PGP and encrypt their own emails because it would reduce the people they could talk to because not everyone knows how to do it. I think encrypting it on the backend makes it easier for people to communicate quickly and safely.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Who controls the keys and what protection is in place? There's some point to point encryption in SMTP and POP and IMAP but what we're really needing is end-to-end encryption, by default.

And yes, 80 year olds and anyone shouldn't need to learn that shit but they should be able to look at the big red bar at the top of the email that says "This email is not from your bank", or paypal, or ebay, or your grandson in jail that should be there in a well-written protocol.

Don't get me wrong though. I know why email is how it is and why it's so difficult to change. It's just that the people writing the email clients should be doing better, especially those who can afford to do so, like Microsoft. Especially now we're all carrying side-channel communication devices which could be utilized for fairly secure key exchange.

[Richy_T]

What happens when these channel states get ridiculously long?  Is there a point at which we really NEED to close the channel and start a fresh one?  Or can we really just keep these little channel ledgers going and going forever.

AFAIK, most channels are typically going to operate unidirectionally (either constantly or net over time) in the real world so periodic settlement is and reopening is likely.

[BobLawblaw]

What happens when these channel states get ridiculously long?

Best I can tell, this is where the HTLC <number> stuff comes into play - or perhaps my understanding is absolutely retarded at the present time. Admitted to Rick this AM that getting back into it, and having the tools to drill down on accounting, is opening up an entire can of worms I was not exposed to - earlier - and starting to get a sense of the HTLC timeouts as I watch payments being routed through me?

Anyway, deeper still to go down the rabbit hole this time around. Back to meatspace for a bit...

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

You are kidding me, right? Worst advise ever.

No surprise the forum going downhill, its done a full 180° from the early days.

My point is even if I do self custody my sats, I reckon this is not for everyone.
Once the forum population was made by übernerds users, capable of handling the complex procedures required of a simple transaction (change addresses and everything).

Now crypto users are more diverse, and even the most technically advanced users could worry about significant others not so advanded, for a variety of reasons.

It's a myth that the forum user quality has gone down hill or that there were better days, blah blah blah...

Sure demographics change, but "down hill"? give me a break.   

Regarding the “not your keys, not your coins” this is surely true, but as always it is a balance of risks. It depends where you live, how advanced is the legislative system, how worried are you about inheritance of your coins, how technical, and how many coins do you own. It is a little bit complicated than a “meme phrase”. And above all, the solution that is good for everyone of us can, and probably is, different.

True dat.

[HI-TEC99]

You are kidding me, right? Worst advise ever.

No surprise the forum going downhill, its done a full 180° from the early days.

My point is even if I do self custody my sats, I reckon this is not for everyone.
Once the forum population was made by übernerds users, capable of handling the complex procedures required of a simple transaction (change addresses and everything).

Now crypto users are more diverse, and even the most technically advanced users could worry about significant others not so advanded, for a variety of reasons.

It's a myth that the forum user quality has gone down hill or that there were better days, blah blah blah...

Sure demographics change, but "down hill"? give me a break.  

We got rid of notlambchop. How's that going down hill?

At least he can't update his gif with new prices. It looks a bit shit now the price is over 100x the price when he made it.

[JayJuanGee]

Somehow I fear that, in the coming years, this choice we now have, to be or not be our own bank, will cease to exist, and we'll all be forced to use banks to store our corn. I hope it will never happen...

The vast majority of political theorists and/or strategizers recognize and appreciate the concept of scoff law, and they are not going to want to create an underground system, but sure I would not put it past them to play various kinds of cards that attempt to require some kinds of custodial services or otherwise reporting requirements - and the balance may also play out delicately in terms of how it may well have backlash repercussions for potentially more friendly jurisdictions - currently El Salvador, but surely others jurisdictions are going to be stepping up to the bitcoin optionality plate that recognizes and appreciates various oppressive aspects of our current monetary system (dominant dollar).

In the end, Joe Sixpack is going to need someone to hold his hand.  It might be a custodian, or exchange, or maybe it's Brother-in-law Billy.

Hahahaha

this reminded me of AlcoHoDL's cousin BillyBeerHODL

You are kidding me, right? Worst advise ever.

No surprise the forum going downhill, its done a full 180° from the early days.

My point is even if I do self custody my sats, I reckon this is not for everyone.
Once the forum population was made by übernerds users, capable of handling the complex procedures required of a simple transaction (change addresses and everything).

Now crypto users are more diverse, and even the most technically advanced users could worry about significant others not so advanded, for a variety of reasons.

It's a myth that the forum user quality has gone down hill or that there were better days, blah blah blah...

Sure demographics change, but "down hill"? give me a break.  

We got rid of notlambchop. How's that going down hill?


At least he can't update his gif with new prices. It looks a bit shit now the price is over 100x the price when he made it.

hahahaha

I will admit that results can sometimes be decently ambiguous and relatively subjective - since we got cryptotourist and notlambieslayer as "new and improved models".. and have you ever seen gembitz, real roach and/or joe biden in the same room?  thanks obama...

[Paashaas]

It has been a while; thieves stealing a Bitcoin ATM.

https://twitter.com/scottbudman/status/1446540818316070917?t=7ZUsq3GK_JEkVCez5afQvw&s=19

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

Money moving on Bitcoin's blockchain is back near all time highs.

It's presently doing ~$190k per second. Compare this to $130k per second by Visa for US customers and $55k per second for Mastercard.

Lightning Network not included.

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1446760123062370307

I had to read that 3 times.

But what it means is Bitcoin has currently outpaced the amount of money being moved in the US by VISA+Mastercard?

That might be one of the biggest pieces of financial news of the year, and nearly no one knows. 

This is yet another rock solid proof of an asymmetric information situation, the magnitude of which is hard to overestimate.  Greatest wealth transfer in history, blah blah...  Still early, blah blah.

Now we just need the number of payments being made to outpace them as well.  I am sure we are still lagging there.  And that is the archetypal coffee transaction, and the LN is going to be a big part of that... not sure how long that takes.

Well if WillyWoo's data already proclaims to NOT be accounting for lightning network data, then adding that data in there likely shows that bitcoin is advancing quickly to be multiples the size of some of the various dominant payment system, and who really cares about the actual exact degree of how much bitcoin is getting close to beating them, the trend is quite clear to those of us who are paying attention  - of course with the help of some data crunchers such as Woo and others and even some of us in this thread will sometimes add up some of the data sources in order to make various revelatory connections regarding the ongoing asymmetric nature of information in relation to bitcoin. 

Many of us have already recognized and appreciated various kinds of mindblowing aspects of bitcoin, whether referring to mining and hashpower or the difficulty adjustment, or the fact that open source developments are causing largely unstoppable abilities to store and transfer value with way lower levels of having to trust anyone. 

Sure there is some trust that has to happen, especially for some of us less technical of folks, but the actual information that we are able to see and the logic does tend to show that there are quite a few people with pretty high integrity who are working in relatively selfless ways (at least in terms of short-term personal financial profits) to review the work of others and to develop products and services that attempt to take advantage of the already existing foundational strengths of bitcoin that are either not recognizable by a lot of normies, and/or there are a lot of normies who have not put enough brain power into really trying to appreciate various attributes that bitcoin is ongoingly bringing to the table... through the "magical internet money."

[PoolMinor]

Getting ready to launch....could be in the next few hours....

[lightfoot]

It's a myth that the forum user quality has gone down hill or that there were better days, blah blah blah...

Sure demographics change, but "down hill"? give me a break.   

Mad magazine used to say that their peak was "the day someone starts reading MAD. After that it's all downhill...

Meantime what will it take for bitcoin to go up! Come on dude, show me the stuff!

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[philipma1957]

hmmm . Still floating at 53-56 range.

I wonder if we go over 60k late tonight or early sunday.