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Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (2%)
7/28 - 7 (14%)
8/4 - 9 (18%)
8/11 - 5 (10%)
8/18 - 1 (2%)
8/25 - 2 (4%)
After August - 25 (50%)
Total Voters: 50

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26419123 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
billyjoeallen
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August 27, 2014, 03:26:23 PM

C'mon you fucking bears, dump already. Don't be stingy with those coins. You need the money. Yer gonna give 'em to us anyway, so you might as well do it now with low slippage.
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August 27, 2014, 03:37:58 PM
Last edit: August 27, 2014, 04:01:26 PM by NotLambchop

...
The answer is localization and allowing people to make choices for themselves rather than those choices being made by some huge monolithic uncaring entity.

The very enlightened self-interest which you [seem to] champion brought us government as we know it today.  Simply because nothing else could have (unless you believe in something external and separate from mankind, like God, Satan, or Princess Twilight Sparkle).  A truism, but worth repeating.


'Enlightened self interest' created the very intelligence that you abuse here to denigrate its value and power.  It's called "evolution".


Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest.
It is not called "evolution."
I have neither praised nor denigrated it.  


Ok, fair enough.  Evolution ~= enlightened self interest - but there is a valid analogy to be drawn that speaks to your claim.

The evolution that resulted in YOU and the intelligence you are attempting to display here today began with random interaction of subatomic particles that formed more complex particles, which then formed molecules, which eventually somehow managed to accidentally come together in a self-replicating form.  Skipping forward a bit, we get complex living creatures, who tend to act in a manner consistent with their own self-interest - either 'enlightened' or otherwise.

Somehow, all that random and, ultimately, intentional activity - none of which ever involved any higher centralized planning - resulted in YOU.

Yet you choose to belittle the concept of 'enlightened self interest', and you seem to suggest that 'enlightened self interest' is a priori inferior to planning and committees and government.  I would suggest that, so far, nature seems to be more clever than any committee I have seen - so I would not belittle the value of what can come of random interactions of actors pursuing their own ends.

I don't suggest here that nature (or enlightened self interest) always produces the 'best' immediate result - that is a very subjective judgement.  But, like Adam Smith, I do marvel at how often it does produce a wonderful result - and I can't seem to think of anything achieved by committee that is comparable.

I'm still not being clear enough, it seems you're addressing my edit:
Quote
...(On the off-chance that you meant something along the lines of "we must not try to impede enlightened self-interest, but rely on it):  That's self-contradictory.  If enlightened self-interest is valid as a concept, there could be no talk of "allowing it to guide us" or "subjugating it."  It either works or it doesn't.  We can no more "allow it to do its thing" than allow gravity to do its thing.

Going with your evolution analogy:
Evolution is not a progression from "worse" to "better"--"better" (or "wonderful," to use your language) is a post-factum value judgement imposed by us, the survivors.  It produced what it has produced, and the "wonder" existence holds it holds only for us, the product.  Nothing suggests that if the end result of biological evolution was undifferentiated slime, that slime would be any less "wonderful" to bits of that slime (if "wonder" was even a thing for those slime bits, but you get my drift).

Evolution simply produces what it produces.  Going by its definition, "survival of the fittest," everything extant is the fittest.
Again, by definition.
Not "the best," not "the best of all possible worlds," but simply "that which exists."

Another tangent:  You can no more encourage, deride or discourage enlightened self-interest than you could encourage, deride, or encourage evolution.  TL;DR: I ain't.  Is this a bit clearer?

*This is getting pretty far away from watching Teh Wall, but there's not much happening there [that I can understand or work with].  Hope we're not annoying the purists.
ChartBuddy
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August 27, 2014, 03:59:24 PM


Explanation
JorgeStolfi
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August 27, 2014, 04:16:46 PM

My dog has learned to run after the stick, but not yet to bring it back.  But it is too young, hopefully it will learn in due time.  Wink

No, that dog is OLD.

No, it is YOUNG.  

Jorge, I get it that you are dubious of the long term prospects of bitcoin as a currency or a store of value.  I disagree with your assessment, but even I realize that the future of that enterprise is still not certain.

I am skeptical about both, which means I am skeptical about the future of the network itself.

HOWEVER, one thing that is NOT experimental or yet to be determined is blockchain technology.  The bitcoin network is a Distributed Autonomous Corporation that manages billions of dollars of value, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, in a distributed, trust-less manner.  It has been working flawlessly in this capacity for over 5 years now.

As a bitcoin fan, you obviously want to stick as many applications as possible into the Satoshi2009 blockchain, in order to get more support for it.  But there are other blockchains in existence, and the bitcoin network's hashing power could be harnessed for other protocols and applications if offered suitable rewards.

The bitcoin network currently costs 1.5 million USD per day.  That cost is now paid invisibly by the bitcoin holders, as you know.  

Yes, the bitcoin network has been working for 5 years now.  Like many other systems out there.  

(But er, wasn't there a hard fork some time ago?)

The maximum number of trasactions per day the bitcoin network has handled so far is a bit  over 100'000.  In Brazilian national elections, more than 100'000'000 votes are cast on a single day.  The US elections must be at least twice as big.  It is yet to be seen whether the bitcoin network and the Satoshi2009 blockchain can scale by x1000 without running into obstacles that have not been noticed yet.

A blockchain voting protocol would require access to the internet from all voting locations.  The current paper-backed e-voting systems do not even require power, and can collect votes autonomously in the middle of the Amazon jungle.  And so on.

(The bitcoin market cap is billions of dollars, but since bitcoins have no intrinsic value, the actual value managed is open to questioning.  If, for some private reason, all owners of Apple stock were forced to put it for sale on the open market, at the same time, all the stock it would probably be bought by  other people for close to its market cap.  If the same thing happened to bitcoin, its market price would probably plummet to single digits.  But this is just a side remark.)

The bitcoin protocol and network are experimental.  The goal of the Wright Bros'  Filer 1 model was to show that heavier-than-air flight was possible, and it was quite successful at that. But it was not meant to be THE transport vehicle of the future, not even a commercial product or the basis for any commercial enterprise.  The Bitcoin Protocol and the Satoshi2009 blockchain were created in the same spirit: as an experiment to prove that a distributed e-payment system without central authority was viable.  And they succesfully achieved that goal.  But the bitcoin protocol still has many limitations that, in my opinion, will ultimately prevent its use as a mainstream e-payment method, and I am almost sure that it will be superseded by some better system before it gets to that point.  Moreover, even if the bitcoin protocol itself thrives, nothing guarantees that it will retain the Satoshi2009 blockchain.

Unfortunately, the unexpected  demand for bitcoins, first by drug dealers and then by Chinese amateur speculators, pushed the bitcoin price 100-fold, in spite of it being just an experiment.  That price increase attracted financial businessmen who are now trying to convince the public that bitcoin (not any other cryptocoin) will be THE e-payment system of the future -- not just a working prototype of it --  and then sell it as a fabulous long-term investment.  I imagine those same people in the 1910's trying to sell Wright Flier 1 planes to the people for 10'000 dollars each, claiming that they (and not any other plane model) would soon be worth millions once the world would recognize their usefulness and exchanged all their horses for them.  Or selling shares of intercontinental airline companies whose fleets consisted of Flyer 1's.

That being said, how do you just dismiss out-of-hand the possibility that this same technology might not be leveraged to create a distributed, trust-less voting system? [ it seems ] that you are more interested in maintaining the status quo than in exploring real solutions to the problem of guaranteeing free and fair elections.  What is being done now is not working all that well in many places.  I find it impossible to believe that you are really that close-minded.

I have looked into some systems that try to use public-key crytography techniques to achieve paperless secure e-voting.  Some of them are meant to let people vote from home over the internet, or depend on voters owning some gizmo that they have to  trust.  I stop reading those proposals right there, because those people obviously have not realized that voter coercion is a real and unsolvable problem in that setting.

Others are meant to prevent fraud in the adding of the votes.  This is a non-problem, because that part can be quite satisfactorily secured by just posting the site totals on the internet.  (In fact, the guy next to my office got crowdfunding to bulld a system that will make it easier to do that after the upcoming Brazilian election.)

The hard problem in paperless e-voting is capturing the vote in such a way that the voter can verify that the vote was correctly captured, but cannot prove to anyone else that he voted in a certain way.

There may be ways of doing that with sophisticated public crypto techniques, but as far as I know there is no solution that is guaranteed to work even with malicious system administrators and malicious hardware.   One of many obstacles is that the system does not know beforehand how many people will vote, so one could discover how each person voted by capturing all incoming data and simulating the end of the election after each vote.  

Even if there is a robust solution, I do not see why a complicated system based on a single shared blockchain, that only a few experts think is safe, would be better than the fully distributed, trustless paper-backed e-voting technology that has been proved secure in many real elections all over the world, and that everybody can understand and trust.
 
It is not a matter of being colosed-minded, rather of not being a naive tech-worshipper.



greenlion
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August 27, 2014, 04:18:48 PM

it's about the time to go back to $4xx now

Does it ever get tiring being a twat?
DubFX
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August 27, 2014, 04:27:05 PM

it's about the time to go back to $4xx now

Does it ever get tiring being a twat?
Isn't he part of that paid troll squad paid for trolling per post/per hour?
Otherwise it has to be something way more serious  Undecided
Omikifuse
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August 27, 2014, 04:30:33 PM

After a fake 520 break we are back to the boring sideways, trapped between 500-520.

That is too boring. I want the days where 50% variations were common
adamstgBit
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August 27, 2014, 04:33:42 PM

After a fake 520 break we are back to the boring sideways, trapped between 500-520.

That is too boring. I want the days where 50% variations were common
wana buy some ether?

ether is sure to swing wildly when it comes out

i sell you ether at rock bottom prices
DubFX
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August 27, 2014, 04:34:16 PM

After a fake 520 break we are back to the boring sideways, trapped between 500-520.

That is too boring. I want the days where 50% variations were common
Now you say that you want these days, but wouldn't you be surprised if you would wake up tommorow with -50% variation of value?
I doubt so.
NotLambchop
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August 27, 2014, 04:34:20 PM

...
The bitcoin protocol and network are experimental.  The goal of the Wright Bros'  Filer 1 model was to show that heavier-than-air flight was possible, and it was quite successful at that. But it was not meant to be THE transport vehicle of the future, not even a commercial product or the basis for any commercial enterprise...

Curious aside:  The Wright Company was a money-losing proposition for the brothers.  Though it kind-a sort-a lived on in part through various mergers, no one ever lost sleep about not investing in the Wright Company when he had a chance.
Take from that what you will Undecided
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August 27, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
Last edit: August 28, 2014, 12:35:45 AM by thefunkybits

Looks like a seeerious rocket getting ready to take-off here....

A bounce up would probably signal the last time we see 500


Bittings
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August 27, 2014, 04:44:37 PM


As a bitcoin fan, you obviously want to stick as many applications as possible into the Satoshi2009 blockchain, in order to get more support for it.  But there are other blockchains in existence, and the bitcoin network's hashing power could be harnessed for other protocols and applications if offered suitable rewards.


nice, attaching the year to the blockchain to imply its old. Quite the troll shot.
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August 27, 2014, 04:53:06 PM


As a bitcoin fan, you obviously want to stick as many applications as possible into the Satoshi2009 blockchain, in order to get more support for it.  But there are other blockchains in existence, and the bitcoin network's hashing power could be harnessed for other protocols and applications if offered suitable rewards.


nice, attaching the year to the blockchain to imply its old. Quite the troll shot.


What is wrong with his post ? why do you think he is trolling ?

Yes the block chain is more than 5 years old, and this mean that you missed the point of his post, any attempt to change/add anything to the Bitcoin protocol at this point or in the future will be hard and will get harder when the adoption rate continue to increase, even a simple task to fix a bug or to release a newer version will get harder, but there are working alternatives (chains) that attempts to solve and add new  features that we think will be  crucial in the future... so the question is: is it worth it ?
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August 27, 2014, 04:56:41 PM

Looks like a seeerious rocket getting ready to take-off here....

A bounce up would probably signal the last time we see 500




What you base this on??

Hope, crystal balls, tea leaves, fortune tellers, moon and stars, pictures of trains, their neighbor told them so, they read it in a blog, someone on twitter, this guy on facebook, they saw a picture of a rocketship and thought it applied, ........ you know the usual reaons
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August 27, 2014, 04:59:26 PM


Explanation
Moria843
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August 27, 2014, 04:59:39 PM

Looks like a seeerious rocket getting ready to take-off here....

A bounce up would probably signal the last time we see 500




What you base this on??

Hope, crystal balls, tea leaves, fortune tellers, moon and stars, pictures of trains, their neighbor told them so, they read it in a blog, someone on twitter, this guy on facebook, they saw a picture of a rocketship and thought it applied, ........ you know the usual reaons

But they could be a licensed master psychic Undecided
Bittings
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August 27, 2014, 05:02:38 PM


As a bitcoin fan, you obviously want to stick as many applications as possible into the Satoshi2009 blockchain, in order to get more support for it.  But there are other blockchains in existence, and the bitcoin network's hashing power could be harnessed for other protocols and applications if offered suitable rewards.


nice, attaching the year to the blockchain to imply its old. Quite the troll shot.


What is wrong with his post ? why do you think he is trolling ?

Yes the block chain is more than 5 years old, and this mean that you missed the point of his post, any attempt to change/add anything to the Bitcoin protocol at this point or in the future will be hard and will get harder when the adoption rate continue to increase, even a simple task to fix a bug or to release a newer version will get harder, but there are working alternatives (chains) that attempts to solve and add new  features that we think will be  crucial in the future... so the question is: is it worth it ?

LOL. why do I think he is trolling? because that is what he is. He may disguise himself as a scholar and a skeptic, but he doesn't fool me.

P.S. You're almost as trolly as him.

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August 27, 2014, 05:04:10 PM

Looks like a seeerious rocket getting ready to take-off here....

A bounce up would probably signal the last time we see 500




What you base this on??

Hope, crystal balls, tea leaves, fortune tellers, moon and stars, pictures of trains, their neighbor told them so, they read it in a blog, someone on twitter, this guy on facebook, they saw a picture of a rocketship and thought it applied, ........ you know the usual reaons

But they could be a licensed master psychic Undecided

Ahhhh you are correct. If rocket ships and trains ever come into one of your visions please let me know so I can immediately........sell.......and buy back lower. K thanks.
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August 27, 2014, 05:06:46 PM

Nightowlace
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August 27, 2014, 05:08:37 PM


As a bitcoin fan, you obviously want to stick as many applications as possible into the Satoshi2009 blockchain, in order to get more support for it.  But there are other blockchains in existence, and the bitcoin network's hashing power could be harnessed for other protocols and applications if offered suitable rewards.


nice, attaching the year to the blockchain to imply its old. Quite the troll shot.


What is wrong with his post ? why do you think he is trolling ?

Yes the block chain is more than 5 years old, and this mean that you missed the point of his post, any attempt to change/add anything to the Bitcoin protocol at this point or in the future will be hard and will get harder when the adoption rate continue to increase, even a simple task to fix a bug or to release a newer version will get harder, but there are working alternatives (chains) that attempts to solve and add new  features that we think will be  crucial in the future... so the question is: is it worth it ?

LOL. why do I think he is trolling? because that is what he is. He may disguise himself as a scholar and a skeptic, but he doesn't fool me.

P.S. You're almost as trolly as him.



30 days in and he's calling out the trolls. Amazing. You should google the people you speak about prior to commenting on their intentions. He is in fact a scholar and a skeptic and I actually welcome his comments even though I often disagree. It is important to have people of different opinions offering up thought out, educated, comments. Too often you hear "BItcoin is a pump and dump" "Bitcoin will fail" "This is the last time we will see $500 buy now" and it is based solely on their current trading/holding position, emotion, and just to be an asshole.
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