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Author Topic: [ANN][ZEN] Horizen: Unbounded By Design  (Read 217125 times)
dmwardjr
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August 31, 2018, 11:17:58 AM
 #3901

All of the small guys buying ASIC's to mine this coin will soon find out the hard way just as I did a long time ago mining Bitcoin with ASIC's; that they cannot compete with the manufacturers.  The only community this crackpot team will have remaining will be operators of secure nodes and super nodes along with a few centralized ASIC manufacturers.  And probably some speculators on the exchanges.  As far as actually USING this coin?  Hell no!  I'm pointing everyone towards Monero.

Follow me on Trading View for excellent signals in Bitcoin/US dollar - Bitstamp - https://www.tradingview.com/u/WyckoffMode/.  You can follow me on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ModeWyckoff My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8IbhpQwrTD6BozJPWnyAHA  My Discord Invite Link: https://discord.com/invite/3EJYTytaTT  My Website is in LIVE BETA: https://wyckoffmode.com/
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August 31, 2018, 11:19:08 AM
 #3902



Juan Rodriguez, from Papá Bitcoin y Criptos, and Levis Caycedo presenting our new brand at Hablemos de Horizen meetup in Bogotá, Colombia!

For some reason he got in contact with me on facebook. Changed name to stay incognito but I documented the conversation and uploaded it to google drive. He calls himself Papa Parlante on facebook. Where does Papá part come from though? I have read on moon pale forum complaints of people dazzled at strange Papá folder in profile folder directory. He copied the name from there.

dmwardjr
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August 31, 2018, 11:24:58 AM
Last edit: August 31, 2018, 11:49:42 AM by dmwardjr
 #3903

Exactly how is ZEN CHAT going to work on a phone anyway?  I understand they will have an app maybe for your phone.  Tell me exactly how that's going to keep the NSA, Apple, Samsung, etc... away from still seeing every single keystroke you make?  The ONLY way to keep key strokes encrypted is to stroke keys on an external hardware device; like Trezor for example.  Your key strokes can easily be seen on a desktop, laptop and mobile phone by other means before it's sent through an app to be encrypted and go on the blockchain.

The ONLY way ZEN is going to pull this off is to create an external hardware device.  

Is someone going to honestly carry around an external hardware device to connect to their mobile phone via bluetooth to chat to someone by typing on that external hardware device?  Good luck getting people to do that.

If people want their data PRIVATE, they would need to keep it on a different external device that encrypts the data before the data actually goes through another device and ride on the internet.  No?

So, once again, for ZEN to actually pull this off, they will need to create an external hardware device.  Preferably a device that doubles as an unlocked mobile phone with the ability to work on any carrier and connect to the ZEN blockchain via a data link.  Why preferably a mobile phone?  Because most people will not want to carry around multiple pieces of hardware for the sake of privacy.  Most don't even care about their privacy at the expense of convenience.  

The downside to creating an encrypted mobile device to keep ALL your data PRIVATE is people should not download other apps to that device that could potentially spy on them or take their coins.  They won't be able to play games on their encrypted mobile phone if their into that kind of thing.  Again, ZEN is forced to wrestle with solving the issue of "inconvenience" using such a device for the sake of privacy.  I would if someone made it available.  My major concern in that case would be, "Is this another Cook telling us our data is protected, when in reality it's not?  In the end, the user would have to TRUST the word of the manufacturer and/or provider that there really is no way for ANYONE to have a key to the encryption to actually see our data, etc...

Bottom line, if people actually want PRIVACY, the best way to have it is by not ever letting it touch the internet without first going through a hardware device and you TRUST the creator of that hardware device that they are not being paid under the table to provide a key to unlock the data from a government agency.

Monero, has PROVEN their commitment to ASIC resistance and LOYALTY to its community by their ACTIONS.  What has ZEN proven?  That they will sell out their community in favor of larger manufacturers who will dominate mining.  Who's to say they will not also sell out users of their so-called PRIVATE services to government agencies for dollar bill?

If I'm wrong, please correct me...

Follow me on Trading View for excellent signals in Bitcoin/US dollar - Bitstamp - https://www.tradingview.com/u/WyckoffMode/.  You can follow me on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ModeWyckoff My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8IbhpQwrTD6BozJPWnyAHA  My Discord Invite Link: https://discord.com/invite/3EJYTytaTT  My Website is in LIVE BETA: https://wyckoffmode.com/
MedaR
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August 31, 2018, 11:50:04 AM
 #3904

Exactly how is ZEN CHAT going to work on a phone anyway?  I understand they will have an app maybe for your phone.  Tell me exactly how that's going to keep the NSA, Apple, Samsung, etc... away from still seeing every single keystroke you make?  The ONLY way to keep key strokes encrypted is to stroke keys on an external hardware device; like Trezor for example.  Your key strokes can easily be seen on a desktop, laptop and mobile phone by other means before it's sent through an app to be encrypted and go on the blockchain.

The ONLY way ZEN is going to pull this off is to create an external hardware device.  

Is someone going to honestly carry around an external hardware device to connect to their mobile phone via bluetooth to chat to someone by typing on that external hardware device?  Good luck getting people to do that.

If people want their data PRIVATE, they would need to keep it on a different external device that encrypts the data before the data actually goes through another device and ride on the internet.  No?

So, once again, for ZEN to actually pull this off, they will need to create an external hardware device.  Preferably a device that doubles as an unlocked mobile phone with the ability to work on any carrier and connect to the ZEN blockchain via a data link.  Why preferably a mobile phone?  Because most people will not want to carry around multiple pieces of hardware for the sake of privacy.  Most don't even care about their privacy at the expense of convenience.  

The downside to creating an encrypted mobile device to keep ALL your data PRIVATE is people should not download other apps to that device that could potentially spy on them or take their coins.  They won't be able to play games on their encrypted mobile phone if their into that kind of thing.  Again, ZEN is forced to wrestle with solving the issue of "inconvenience" using such a device for the sake of privacy.  I would if someone made it available.  My major concern in that case would be, "Is this another Cook telling us our data is protected, when in reality it's not?  In the end, the user would have to TRUST the word of the manufacturer and/or provider that there really is no way for ANYONE to have a key to the encryption to actually see our data, etc...

If I'm wrong, please correct me...
ZenChat is the most secure messaging application on the market and can be used as a standalone product or embedded within our Wallets.
Users are able to communicate 1-on-1, through group messaging, or set up dedicated private channels. Channel communication costs a minimal amount of ZEN to prevent clutter and spam.

ZenChat messages are stored permanently in the blockchain to prevent metadata leakage and are encrypted with algorithms such as AES-256 with Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS), matching current standards of encryption for secure communication. Secure Nodes communication relay is non-traceable.

https://www.horizen.global/zenchat/

https://github.com/ZencashOfficial/ZENChat/releases

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dmwardjr
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August 31, 2018, 11:52:23 AM
Last edit: August 31, 2018, 01:00:14 PM by dmwardjr
 #3905

Exactly how is ZEN CHAT going to work on a phone anyway?  I understand they will have an app maybe for your phone.  Tell me exactly how that's going to keep the NSA, Apple, Samsung, etc... away from still seeing every single keystroke you make?  The ONLY way to keep key strokes encrypted is to stroke keys on an external hardware device; like Trezor for example.  Your key strokes can easily be seen on a desktop, laptop and mobile phone by other means before it's sent through an app to be encrypted and go on the blockchain.

The ONLY way ZEN is going to pull this off is to create an external hardware device.  

Is someone going to honestly carry around an external hardware device to connect to their mobile phone via bluetooth to chat to someone by typing on that external hardware device?  Good luck getting people to do that.

If people want their data PRIVATE, they would need to keep it on a different external device that encrypts the data before the data actually goes through another device and ride on the internet.  No?

So, once again, for ZEN to actually pull this off, they will need to create an external hardware device.  Preferably a device that doubles as an unlocked mobile phone with the ability to work on any carrier and connect to the ZEN blockchain via a data link.  Why preferably a mobile phone?  Because most people will not want to carry around multiple pieces of hardware for the sake of privacy.  Most don't even care about their privacy at the expense of convenience.  

The downside to creating an encrypted mobile device to keep ALL your data PRIVATE is people should not download other apps to that device that could potentially spy on them or take their coins.  They won't be able to play games on their encrypted mobile phone if they're into that kind of thing.  Again, ZEN is forced to wrestle with solving the issue of "inconvenience" using such a device for the sake of privacy.  I would if someone made it available.  My major concern in that case would be, "Is this another Cook telling us our data is protected, when in reality it's not?  In the end, the user would have to TRUST the word of the manufacturer and/or provider that there really is no way for ANYONE to have a key to the encryption to actually see our data, etc...

Bottom line, if people actually want PRIVACY, the best way to have it is by not ever letting it touch the internet without first going through a hardware device and you TRUST the creator of that hardware device that they are not being paid under the table to provide a key to unlock the data from a government agency.

Monero, has PROVEN their commitment to ASIC resistance and LOYALTY to its community by their ACTIONS.  What has ZEN proven?  That they will sell out their community in favor of larger manufacturers who will dominate mining.  Who's to say they will not also sell out users of their so-called PRIVATE services to government agencies for dollar bill?

If I'm wrong, please correct me...

ZenChat is the most secure messaging application on the market and can be used as a standalone product or embedded within our Wallets.
Users are able to communicate 1-on-1, through group messaging, or set up dedicated private channels. Channel communication costs a minimal amount of ZEN to prevent clutter and spam.

ZenChat messages are stored permanently in the blockchain to prevent metadata leakage and are encrypted with algorithms such as AES-256 with Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS), matching current standards of encryption for secure communication. Secure Nodes communication relay is non-traceable.

https://www.horizen.global/zenchat/

https://github.com/ZencashOfficial/ZENChat/releases


By typing on what device that's "stand alone?"  What piece of hardware do you have available to connect to a desktop, laptop or mobile device to encrypt what you type before it goes through that device [encrypted] onto the blockchain?

Sounds like a damn political talking point to me.

So damn what they are stored permanently in the blockchain.  I'm sure the NSA stores them as well from key strokes before they ever hit your damn blockchain.

WHY the hell do you think Trezor has a hardware device to encrypt data BEFORE it goes through a device to go to the blockchain?

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND HOW HACKERS and GOVERNMENTS CAN SEE DAMN KEYSTROKES

PRIVACY is not as cut and dry as some of you make it out to be!

Apple says our data is protected on an iPhone.  Yet, the NSA can easily see EVERYTHING in that iPhone without it being unlocked.  They can hear people talking even when you THINK the phone is off.  All of that crap in the news a while back with CNN and others acting like they were mad at Apple for not allowing the FBI to have a master key to all iPhones to unlock iPhones was nothing but a Psy-Opp.  They want the population to think our data is safe on an iPhone when that is further from the truth.

Here's another example: If you have a smart meter on the side of your house to measure your power consumption, that smart meter can be used to convert longitudinal currents on the power line into metallic currents used by the device [and visa-versa] to hack into your lap top or desktop WITHOUT IT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET VIA CONVENTIONAL SOURCES; such as telephone or cable modems.  Your device CAN be connected to via the power outlet the moment you connect it to power to charge it up.  There is more to the smart meters on the sides of our homes and businesses than the population is aware of.  I bet you didn't know that did you?  I worked in intelligence in the Marine Corp.  You'll be SURPRISED what the government can do.

The power companies were actually trying to get a license to provide internet to customers a few years back but it was denied by the FCC.  Why?  Because intelligence did not want the cat out of the bag about how they can access devices through the power line without you being connected to the internet via conventional means.  The government can spy on you through a device the moment that device is connected to a power source.  Especially, if the power source is monitored by a smart meter.

To take that previous example about connecting to devices through power lines a bit further:  If an agent needs access to a computer held by a terrorist in a country without smart meters, they have to use actual feet on the ground with access to the terrorist power in their building or home to then connect a device to their power line to gain access wirelessly from a safe location to hack their computer the moment it's plugged into power.  The terrorist thinks they are safe not connecting to the internet with that device with sensitive information but they are sadly mistaken.

I was actually curious about how ZEN was going to pull this off with PRIVACY of all our data.  Because I "KNOW" it's NOT possible without a hardware device that's encrypted before it's connected to any other device.  Yes, ZEN would be able to keep users data private from most people.  But from governments or institutions with the means and the knowhow to see our data, it's not cut and dry as most people might think.

Right now, all I'm seeing/hearing is a marketing ploy to get adoption with fancy slogans and artwork.  I have yet to see any REAL SOLUTIONS from this project to actually keep our data private from governments and institutions with the means and the knowhow to access our data.

Follow me on Trading View for excellent signals in Bitcoin/US dollar - Bitstamp - https://www.tradingview.com/u/WyckoffMode/.  You can follow me on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ModeWyckoff My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8IbhpQwrTD6BozJPWnyAHA  My Discord Invite Link: https://discord.com/invite/3EJYTytaTT  My Website is in LIVE BETA: https://wyckoffmode.com/
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August 31, 2018, 12:05:21 PM
 #3906

i loved the zencash brand.. now, not so much. maybe because of their initial statement that they support asic resistance and not keeping it strait on that road.

ASIC shitcoin

People like to complain but hardly know how to do better Roll Eyes
yup..you are probably correct in most cases...but fuck it..in this one missed a little Smiley
i bought the zencash domain for my country..now it is useless Smiley)))

Op reads: something will be allocated over to somebody through the reward droppings funded by Horizen treasure. Im not asking where the treasury is, that would a rhetoric question. Just wanna know if theres any treasury and who is in charge of it. I could pull a mind control trick on u to extract the knowledge in its original form ur carcass if I wanted to.

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August 31, 2018, 01:05:00 PM
Last edit: August 31, 2018, 01:20:52 PM by MedaR
 #3907

For some reason he got in contact with me on facebook. Changed name to stay incognito but I documented the conversation and uploaded it to google drive. He calls himself Papa Parlante on facebook. Where does Papá part come from though? I have read on moon pale forum complaints of people dazzled at strange Papá folder in profile folder directory. He copied the name from there.
I really dont know what are you are talking about. Anyway I will inform them about this.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3IiGGIgyHtaF_naQ0cOhxA/about
https://www.facebook.com/PapaBitcoinyCriptos


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MedaR
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August 31, 2018, 01:38:47 PM
 #3908

All of the small guys buying ASIC's to mine this coin will soon find out the hard way just as I did a long time ago mining Bitcoin with ASIC's; that they cannot compete with the manufacturers.  The only community this crackpot team will have remaining will be operators of secure nodes and super nodes along with a few centralized ASIC manufacturers.  And probably some speculators on the exchanges.  As far as actually USING this coin?  Hell no!  I'm pointing everyone towards Monero.

Quote
Moving to a blockDAG should allow us to collapse the difficulty to a point where single GPU solo mining is possible once again. This has been talked about for 8+ months now and has always been the mid term solution we're aiming for.

The recent decision simply means that we aren't willing to risk a drop in hash by shifting parameters.

The real solution to decentralise mining is and almost always has been the blockDAG, that's why it's a fully funded project that's already well underway.
Rowan Stone

You can rent this space
MagicSmoker
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August 31, 2018, 04:54:33 PM
 #3909

What does the 400 error code mean in the Arizen wallet? I'm trying to send ZEN from one z address to another and I keep getting this response even when I set the transaction fee to a rather generous 0.1 ZEN. I want to move the entire balance, but the same thing happens even with lesser amounts.



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August 31, 2018, 09:02:21 PM
Merited by MagicSmoker (1)
 #3910

What does the 400 error code mean in the Arizen wallet? I'm trying to send ZEN from one z address to another and I keep getting this response even when I set the transaction fee to a rather generous 0.1 ZEN. I want to move the entire balance, but the same thing happens even with lesser amounts.




Hey @MagicSmoker
Try to spend less than the full amount you have and set the fee lower because it can happen if the transaction fee is too high

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MagicSmoker
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August 31, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
 #3911

What does the 400 error code mean in the Arizen wallet? I'm trying to send ZEN from one z address to another and I keep getting this response even when I set the transaction fee to a rather generous 0.1 ZEN. I want to move the entire balance, but the same thing happens even with lesser amounts.

Hey @MagicSmoker
Try to spend less than the full amount you have and set the fee lower because it can happen if the transaction fee is too high

I was skeptical that a lower transaction fee would help, but I tried leaving it at the default value of 0.0001/0,0001 ZEN and that did the trick, so a merit for you!

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August 31, 2018, 10:01:31 PM
Merited by MedaR (2)
 #3912


The power companies were actually trying to get a license to provide internet to customers a few years back but it was denied by the FCC.  Why?  Because intelligence did not want the cat out of the bag about how they can access devices through the power line without you being connected to the internet via conventional means.  The government can spy on you through a device the moment that device is connected to a power source.  Especially, if the power source is monitored by a smart meter.

To take that previous example about connecting to devices through power lines a bit further:  If an agent needs access to a computer held by a terrorist in a country without smart meters, they have to use actual feet on the ground with access to the terrorist power in their building or home to then connect a device to their power line to gain access wirelessly from a safe location to hack their computer the moment it's plugged into power.  The terrorist thinks they are safe not connecting to the internet with that device with sensitive information but they are sadly mistaken.

I was actually curious about how ZEN was going to pull this off with PRIVACY of all our data.  Because I "KNOW" it's NOT possible without a hardware device that's encrypted before it's connected to any other device.  Yes, ZEN would be able to keep users data private from most people.  But from governments or institutions with the means and the knowhow to see our data, it's not cut and dry as most people might think.


Thanks for providing this tech insight on ways it is possible to spy on your PC without Internet. As far as I know it should be also possible by remote recording whatever appears on your monitor from an equipped van in the Street, and other even more astonishing tricks.
However it must also be noted that this would usually not happen to people, unless these gov people are seriously after you, in which case you are probably screwed anyway. In other words the problems you mention would likely never be a problem for most of the people, just for a few of them, eventually. 99.99% of the people using ZEN would likely be protected from mass surveillance.
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August 31, 2018, 10:11:17 PM
 #3913

All of the small guys buying ASIC's to mine this coin will soon find out the hard way just as I did a long time ago mining Bitcoin with ASIC's; that they cannot compete with the manufacturers.  The only community this crackpot team will have remaining will be operators of secure nodes and super nodes along with a few centralized ASIC manufacturers.  And probably some speculators on the exchanges.  As far as actually USING this coin?  Hell no!  I'm pointing everyone towards Monero.

Quote
Moving to a blockDAG should allow us to collapse the difficulty to a point where single GPU solo mining is possible once again. This has been talked about for 8+ months now and has always been the mid term solution we're aiming for.

The recent decision simply means that we aren't willing to risk a drop in hash by shifting parameters.

The real solution to decentralise mining is and almost always has been the blockDAG, that's why it's a fully funded project that's already well underway.
Rowan Stone

I totally agree with it. I think the team is just moving the right way and I can't wait to see the next steps. After rebranding, more eyes will be upon us and we must tkae this opportunity to show the hard work the team is putting into this project.
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September 01, 2018, 03:04:26 AM
 #3914

By typing on what device that's "stand alone?"  What piece of hardware do you have available to connect to a desktop, laptop or mobile device to encrypt what you type before it goes through that device [encrypted] onto the blockchain?

The level of privacy you can expect out of Zenchat is the same level you can expect from any computer/mobile phone/device where you have to type a password or private key.  You have to know that it's not compromised.


Quote
Sounds like a damn political talking point to me.

There is no perfect mouse-trap... but it's a good start.


Quote
So damn what they are stored permanently in the blockchain.  I'm sure the NSA stores them as well from key strokes before they ever hit your damn blockchain.

WHY the hell do you think Trezor has a hardware device to encrypt data BEFORE it goes through a device to go to the blockchain?

BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND HOW HACKERS and GOVERNMENTS CAN SEE DAMN KEYSTROKES

PRIVACY is not as cut and dry as some of you make it out to be!

Are you saying that the NSA has a backdoor into every device?


Quote
Apple says our data is protected on an iPhone.  Yet, the NSA can easily see EVERYTHING in that iPhone without it being unlocked.  They can hear people talking even when you THINK the phone is off.  All of that crap in the news a while back with CNN and others acting like they were mad at Apple for not allowing the FBI to have a master key to all iPhones to unlock iPhones was nothing but a Psy-Opp.  They want the population to think our data is safe on an iPhone when that is further from the truth.

Eh... iOS code at Apple goes through rigorous tests to make sure that it's not backdoored or compromised.  Unless Apple want a backdoor to exist... it doesn't just appear out of thin air.


Quote
Here's another example: If you have a smart meter on the side of your house to measure your power consumption, that smart meter can be used to convert longitudinal currents on the power line into metallic currents used by the device [and visa-versa]

What are you talking about here?  What is a "metallic current?"


Quote
...to hack into your lap top or desktop WITHOUT IT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET VIA CONVENTIONAL SOURCES; such as telephone or cable modems.  Your device CAN be connected to via the power outlet the moment you connect it to power to charge it up.  There is more to the smart meters on the sides of our homes and businesses than the population is aware of.  I bet you didn't know that did you?  I worked in intelligence in the Marine Corp.  You'll be SURPRISED what the government can do.

Hmmm... this sounds made up.  AC current is converted to DC current to run a computer.  If there was a signal present on the AC current, it would be destroyed in the AC-to-DC conversion.  And second... computers don't respond to a signal unless there is a hardware device that can interpret and process the signal.  No device exists in your standard computer, and it certainly doesn't exist in your AC-to-DC converter.


Quote
The power companies were actually trying to get a license to provide internet to customers a few years back but it was denied by the FCC.  Why?  Because intelligence did not want the cat out of the bag about how they can access devices through the power line without you being connected to the internet via conventional means.

Again, this is not correct.  You would require a modem that could interpret any signal that rides on the AC current.  I worked on a contract about 20 years ago where a newly de-regulated power company was experimenting with providing network services over power lines, but it was unfeasible as the signal is destroyed over any significant distance.  Think about "power-line ethernet" that is available today.  Signals just do not transmit across breakers and transformers very well.


Quote
The government can spy on you through a device the moment that device is connected to a power source.  Especially, if the power source is monitored by a smart meter.

No they can't.


Quote
To take that previous example about connecting to devices through power lines a bit further:  If an agent needs access to a computer held by a terrorist in a country without smart meters, they have to use actual feet on the ground with access to the terrorist power in their building or home to then connect a device to their power line to gain access wirelessly from a safe location to hack their computer the moment it's plugged into power.  The terrorist thinks they are safe not connecting to the internet with that device with sensitive information but they are sadly mistaken.

Again... there is no signal modulation happening across power lines.  A computer has no physical capacity to do so without a modem being covertly added.  And at that point, why bother with trying to send signals across a power line?  You can just send them wirelessly to a transceiver on the outside of a house.


Quote
I was actually curious about how ZEN was going to pull this off with PRIVACY of all our data.  Because I "KNOW" it's NOT possible without a hardware device that's encrypted before it's connected to any other device.  Yes, ZEN would be able to keep users data private from most people.  But from governments or institutions with the means and the knowhow to see our data, it's not cut and dry as most people might think.

Right now, all I'm seeing/hearing is a marketing ploy to get adoption with fancy slogans and artwork.  I have yet to see any REAL SOLUTIONS from this project to actually keep our data private from governments and institutions with the means and the knowhow to access our data.


How would you propose to solve the problem?

Karlitosss
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September 01, 2018, 04:22:10 AM
 #3915


Horizen is not "Sold to ASIC" just some very tough decisions cannot be done fairly without voting, I think Rolf explained this very good:
 - Security of this project is priority
 - This project is not all about mining
 - There are a lot of things need to be done in coming period, we are sticking for the road map.

Horizen Statement on Mining Algorithm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeKY0pls8

 I respect your opinion and understand your anger, and I can only encourage you to stay with us and continue contributing to this project.  

Many GPU miners will still stay in this project, holding nods and waiting for a new features.


Are you serious some GPU miners will stay? I was a GPU miner until those z9 equihash ASICshit. I had 13 x GTX 1080ti  and 4 x GTX 1070(ti) on ZenCash. Do you honestly think I am still mining Zencash when I can do more on ETH or other coins? You are on the bottom of every coin calculators web sites when I calculate most profitable coins.

And by the way I bought a Z9 and I will NOT mine Horizen but Zcash.

But thanks, it was a very cool project until recently

TheHas
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September 01, 2018, 08:01:44 AM
 #3916


Are you serious some GPU miners will stay? I was a GPU miner until those z9 equihash ASICshit. I had 13 x GTX 1080ti  and 4 x GTX 1070(ti) on ZenCash. Do you honestly think I am still mining Zencash when I can do more on ETH or other coins? You are on the bottom of every coin calculators web sites when I calculate most profitable coins.

And by the way I bought a Z9 and I will NOT mine Horizen but Zcash.

But thanks, it was a very cool project until recently


Yeah it's a massive backflip. All the previous zencash/horizon articles have been about 'listening to the community' and 'researching asic resistant algorithms'. Then overnight it's like, oh, well ignore those articles, because we're staying an asic coin because you know, it takes a lot of time and energy to change algorithms.

I'm not an expert on how much work it takes to make algo changes, but with a 10 percent block reward going to development, they should be able to make it work.

Also, the team knows for a fact that the 'do nothing' decision supports centralisation of zen, not decentralisation or community empowerment. It is almost a guarantee that if a community voting mechanism was in place today, it would support a move away from ASICs. The decision to stay with Equihash goes against (what I thought) are the objectives of Horizen to create a decentralised currency and platform. To me, the decision to support the Asic manufacturing industry is extremely disappointing.
MedaR
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September 01, 2018, 09:03:27 AM
 #3917


Horizen is not "Sold to ASIC" just some very tough decisions cannot be done fairly without voting, I think Rolf explained this very good:
 - Security of this project is priority
 - This project is not all about mining
 - There are a lot of things need to be done in coming period, we are sticking for the road map.

Horizen Statement on Mining Algorithm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeKY0pls8

 I respect your opinion and understand your anger, and I can only encourage you to stay with us and continue contributing to this project.  

Many GPU miners will still stay in this project, holding nods and waiting for a new features.


Are you serious some GPU miners will stay? I was a GPU miner until those z9 equihash ASICshit. I had 13 x GTX 1080ti  and 4 x GTX 1070(ti) on ZenCash. Do you honestly think I am still mining Zencash when I can do more on ETH or other coins? You are on the bottom of every coin calculators web sites when I calculate most profitable coins.

And by the way I bought a Z9 and I will NOT mine Horizen but Zcash.

But thanks, it was a very cool project until recently
Horizen is not only about mining, this is what i have wanted to say. Many old miners already have Secure nodes and Super nodes and they will stay involved, this is what I wanted to say.

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MedaR
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September 01, 2018, 09:15:44 AM
 #3918


Are you serious some GPU miners will stay? I was a GPU miner until those z9 equihash ASICshit. I had 13 x GTX 1080ti  and 4 x GTX 1070(ti) on ZenCash. Do you honestly think I am still mining Zencash when I can do more on ETH or other coins? You are on the bottom of every coin calculators web sites when I calculate most profitable coins.

And by the way I bought a Z9 and I will NOT mine Horizen but Zcash.

But thanks, it was a very cool project until recently


Yeah it's a massive backflip. All the previous zencash/horizon articles have been about 'listening to the community' and 'researching asic resistant algorithms'. Then overnight it's like, oh, well ignore those articles, because we're staying an asic coin because you know, it takes a lot of time and energy to change algorithms.

I'm not an expert on how much work it takes to make algo changes, but with a 10 percent block reward going to development, they should be able to make it work.

Also, the team knows for a fact that the 'do nothing' decision supports centralisation of zen, not decentralisation or community empowerment. It is almost a guarantee that if a community voting mechanism was in place today, it would support a move away from ASICs. The decision to stay with Equihash goes against (what I thought) are the objectives of Horizen to create a decentralised currency and platform. To me, the decision to support the Asic manufacturing industry is extremely disappointing.

Moving to a blockDAG should allow us to collapse the difficulty to a point where single GPU solo mining is possible once again. This has been talked about for 8+ months now and has always been the mid term solution we're aiming for.

The recent decision simply means that we aren't willing to risk a drop in hash by shifting parameters.

The real solution to decentralise mining is and almost always has been the blockDAG, that's why it's a fully funded project that's already well underway.
Rowan Stone


So instead of focussing on short term solutions we are more focused on longer term solutions. And as previously stated - Security of this project is priority.

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TheHas
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September 01, 2018, 09:42:44 AM
Last edit: September 01, 2018, 10:41:17 AM by TheHas
 #3919


Moving to a blockDAG should allow us to collapse the difficulty to a point where single GPU solo mining is possible once again. This has been talked about for 8+ months now and has always been the mid term solution we're aiming for.

The recent decision simply means that we aren't willing to risk a drop in hash by shifting parameters.

The real solution to decentralise mining is and almost always has been the blockDAG, that's why it's a fully funded project that's already well underway.
Rowan Stone

Is there a link to further detail on what you mean by creating/moving to a 'blockDAG'? Had a look on google on what it is but there isn't much that is concise - interested in what it means for Horizen perspective.

The recent announcement was only focused on not shifting the algorithm despite asics, which is why you see frustration on this forum. I didn't see any detail about a blockDAG protocol that would somehow allow single GPU solo mining down the track. If this was explained, you could allay some concerns.

I mean, if you look at this article from just last week, it details Horizen's commitment to ASIC resistance and the blockDAG protocol as two separate things: https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/75156/zencash-rebrands-as-horizon

Quote: In collaboration with established partners, Horizen plans to research and develop a ZenVault wallet, blockDAG protocols for significantly increased scalability, and ASIC mining resistance.

So is a blockDAG protocol related to asic resistance? And if so, how?
MedaR
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September 01, 2018, 12:32:55 PM
 #3920


Moving to a blockDAG should allow us to collapse the difficulty to a point where single GPU solo mining is possible once again. This has been talked about for 8+ months now and has always been the mid term solution we're aiming for.

The recent decision simply means that we aren't willing to risk a drop in hash by shifting parameters.

The real solution to decentralise mining is and almost always has been the blockDAG, that's why it's a fully funded project that's already well underway.
Rowan Stone

Is there a link to further detail on what you mean by creating/moving to a 'blockDAG'? Had a look on google on what it is but there isn't much that is concise - interested in what it means for Horizen perspective.

The recent announcement was only focused on not shifting the algorithm despite asics, which is why you see frustration on this forum. I didn't see any detail about a blockDAG protocol that would somehow allow single GPU solo mining down the track. If this was explained, you could allay some concerns.

I mean, if you look at this article from just last week, it details Horizen's commitment to ASIC resistance and the blockDAG protocol as two separate things: https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/75156/zencash-rebrands-as-horizon

Quote: In collaboration with established partners, Horizen plans to research and develop a ZenVault wallet, blockDAG protocols for significantly increased scalability, and ASIC mining resistance.

So is a blockDAG protocol related to asic resistance? And if so, how?

https://medium.com/@drstone/an-overview-of-proof-of-work-based-blockchain-consensus-protocols-part-1-e04102885093
https://medium.com/@drstone/an-overview-of-spectre-a-blockdag-consensus-protocol-part-2-36d3d2bd33fc
https://medium.com/@drstone/an-overview-of-phantom-a-blockdag-consensus-protocol-part-3-f28fa5d76ef7

https://twitter.com/GarnetAndBlock/status/1035202206469943298

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