Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[wrenchmonkey]

@wrenchmonkey

Why do you invest so much time defending BFL 

Not defending BFL, per se. Just toying with the trolls. 

[Xian01]

You don't think that him (and others like him) turning up in every thread that mentions BFL in order to spread FUD and vitriol impacts their business? REEEEALY?  

Go try and run a restaurant with people pissing all over the windows all the time, and see how that works out for you.

Except your "restaurant" has 1,000's of customers who are hungry and have been waiting for 11 months for their food. The restroom is full of urine and feces, the storeroom is full, the waiting area is full, the only place to "relieve" one's self IS on the windows.

Analogy fail.

The BFL debacle is not like any other normal business scenario.

 Thank you for this analogy. It is quite apropos and right on the mark.

EDIT: And lets not forget that the reason I lost my cool is over how their COO was taunting their loyal and, until recently, patient customers, right here on these very forums. Additionally, while making claims that these forums are not important to their business, they are continuing attempting to advertise here.

[k9quaint]

What are you trying to find? Bitching and moaning from the OP? Hint: it's on every page of this thread, and most pages of most other threads involving BFL.  

Hardly surprising. People tend to complain when they're constantly lied to.

Seems to be a small handful of people making all the noise?

That is part of the problem. There is so much evidence about the history of BFL that people just see a wall of text and refuse to read it. Thus it just comes across as "noise".

Since we cannot rely on people to read, we have to continuously dispel nonsense brought up by the Wrenchmonkeys of the world.

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets. 

[wrenchmonkey]

What are you trying to find? Bitching and moaning from the OP? Hint: it's on every page of this thread, and most pages of most other threads involving BFL.  

Hardly surprising. People tend to complain when they're constantly lied to.

Seems to be a small handful of people making all the noise?

That is part of the problem. There is so much evidence about the history of BFL that people just see a wall of text and refuse to read it. Thus it just comes across as "noise".

Since we cannot rely on people to read, we have to continuously dispel nonsense brought up by the Wrenchmonkeys of the world.

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets. 

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record? 

[bassclef]

I continued to be surprised how strong sales are for BFL even to this day. Guess it goes to show you how much of an impact advertising can have, and how this sizzle is often more important than the steak.

I can also understand somewhat how folks who haven't read too much about Bitcoin, or much at all on these forums, could be seduced into buying a sexy BFL 'pre-order' after punching in basic numbers into that top Google ranked Bitcoin mining calculator, which has the big prominent BFL ad on the same page.

What I don't understand is how so many people could be so screwed by this company, and yet, how very few seem to request refunds.  Even let's suppose BFL ships in 2 months or so. How can you justify being lied to repeatedly and still trust this company -- there is no way in hell they could have expected to finish their product in any of the initial timelines they regularly proclaimed. 

And if you even then presumed that they were being honest when saying '1 or 2 more weeks' for the last forever, (and going great lengths to win that 'shipping' bet) then you would than logically have to suppose that the level of BFL's incompetence is such that it'd be a far better investment to move your BTC anywhere elsewhere.

Get a refund while you can. Cut your losses.

Spend a few days on the BFL forums and you'll see why. Not the brightest group over there. The moderators are bullies (probably by design, as some have been given product) and many of their customers do not speak English very well (or at all). Most are just honest folks who keep holding out hope for their magic money machine. More of them are waking up, and are loudly being told to get refunds so BFL can distance themselves from undesireable customers.

Their ads and slick website continue to draw in the naive and greedy, piggybacking off bitcoin's success, promising huge returns on investment. Funny how scams, having evolved over the years, still operate by exploiting a plethoria of basic human emotions.

[yxt]

@wrenchmonkey

Why do you invest so much time defending BFL 

Not defending BFL, per se. Just toying with the trolls. 

Ok

Why do you invest so much time "toying with the trolls"?

[k9quaint]

What are you trying to find? Bitching and moaning from the OP? Hint: it's on every page of this thread, and most pages of most other threads involving BFL.  

Hardly surprising. People tend to complain when they're constantly lied to.

Seems to be a small handful of people making all the noise?

That is part of the problem. There is so much evidence about the history of BFL that people just see a wall of text and refuse to read it. Thus it just comes across as "noise".

Since we cannot rely on people to read, we have to continuously dispel nonsense brought up by the Wrenchmonkeys of the world.

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets. 

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record? 

You said the IRS indicted Sonny. I corrected you.
You said it was an IRS witch hunt. I corrected you.
You just said you made no false statements. I have now corrected you.
You will continue to make false statements in support of BFL for reasons that are not clear.

[wrenchmonkey]

What are you trying to find? Bitching and moaning from the OP? Hint: it's on every page of this thread, and most pages of most other threads involving BFL.  

Hardly surprising. People tend to complain when they're constantly lied to.

Seems to be a small handful of people making all the noise?

That is part of the problem. There is so much evidence about the history of BFL that people just see a wall of text and refuse to read it. Thus it just comes across as "noise".

Since we cannot rely on people to read, we have to continuously dispel nonsense brought up by the Wrenchmonkeys of the world.

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets. 

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record? 

You said the IRS indicted Sonny. I corrected you.
You said it was an IRS witch hunt. I corrected you.
You just said you made no false statements. I have now corrected you.
You will continue to make false statements in support of BFL for reasons that are not clear.

No, you're playing the semantics game. The US DOJ files indictments for the entity that requests it. In this case, the IRS.

I said that it appears to me to be little more than an IRS witch hunt (statement of opinion, not of fact, and not up for debate in terms of "false statements"),

The US DOJ would have been merely accessory to (since they're the ones who actually do the prosecution, once a case/witch hunt gets turned over to them).

They apparently weren't given a particularly strong case, however, throwing out most of the charges in exchange for avoiding a trial (for which they have unlimited funding). Federal prosecutors only care about a conviction rate. If they think they don't have a particularly strong case, they'll throw out most of it in exchange for a mere conviction. If they actually thought he was a bad guy, they would've thrown the book at him, knowing that they with a strong case, and unlimited funds, they would eventually bury him.

Come on, you can do better than that. You've been accusing me of making false statements since well before this even came up. Getting desperate?

[darkmule]

What I don't understand is how so many people could be so screwed by this company, and yet, how very few seem to request refunds.  Even let's suppose BFL ships in 2 months or so. How can you justify being lied to repeatedly and still trust this company -- there is no way in hell they could have expected to finish their product in any of the initial timelines they regularly proclaimed.  

Seems rational enough at this point.  Even if people think they've been screwed up until now, at this point, the preorder money is a sunk cost.  Anyone at the top of the queue who ever actually gets a unit will probably profit overall on the deal.  Depending on how you figure the odds of actually getting a unit and when you think it's likely, it's kind of a judgment call as to whether it's worth sticking around or getting a refund.

If I had a high order number, I'd be getting out of Dodge.  (Luckily, I have no money tied up in this clusterfuck personally.)

[erschiessen]

What are you trying to find? Bitching and moaning from the OP? Hint: it's on every page of this thread, and most pages of most other threads involving BFL.  

Hardly surprising. People tend to complain when they're constantly lied to.

Seems to be a small handful of people making all the noise?

That is part of the problem. There is so much evidence about the history of BFL that people just see a wall of text and refuse to read it. Thus it just comes across as "noise".

Since we cannot rely on people to read, we have to continuously dispel nonsense brought up by the Wrenchmonkeys of the world.

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets. 

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record? 

You said the IRS indicted Sonny. I corrected you.
You said it was an IRS witch hunt. I corrected you.
You just said you made no false statements. I have now corrected you.
You will continue to make false statements in support of BFL for reasons that are not clear.

No, you're playing the semantics game. The US DOJ files indictments for the entity that requests it. In this case, the IRS.

I said that it appears to me to be little more than an IRS witch hunt (statement of opinion, not of fact, and not up for debate in terms of "false statements"),

The US DOJ would have been merely accessory to (since they're the ones who actually do the prosecution, once a case/witch hunt gets turned over to them).

They apparently weren't given a particularly strong case, however, throwing out most of the charges in exchange for avoiding a trial (for which they have unlimited funding). Federal prosecutors only care about a conviction rate. If they think they don't have a particularly strong case, they'll throw out most of it in exchange for a mere conviction. If they actually thought he was a bad guy, they would've thrown the book at him, knowing that they with a strong case, and unlimited funds, they would eventually bury him.

Come on, you can do better than that. You've been accusing me of making false statements since well before this even came up. Getting desperate?

If you were innocent, would you plead guilty?
If you were innocent, would you place yourself in a foreign prison, in order to fight extradition?
If you were innocent, would you not go to trial in order to make your case?

[k9quaint]

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets.  

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record?  

You said the IRS indicted Sonny. I corrected you.
You said it was an IRS witch hunt. I corrected you.
You just said you made no false statements. I have now corrected you.
You will continue to make false statements in support of BFL for reasons that are not clear.

No, you're playing the semantics game. The US DOJ files indictments for the entity that requests it. In this case, the IRS.

I said that it appears to me to be little more than an IRS witch hunt (statement of opinion, not of fact, and not up for debate in terms of "false statements"),

The US DOJ would have been merely accessory to (since they're the ones who actually do the prosecution, once a case/witch hunt gets turned over to them).

They apparently weren't given a particularly strong case, however, throwing out most of the charges in exchange for avoiding a trial (for which they have unlimited funding). Federal prosecutors only care about a conviction rate. If they think they don't have a particularly strong case, they'll throw out most of it in exchange for a mere conviction. If they actually thought he was a bad guy, they would've thrown the book at him, knowing that they with a strong case, and unlimited funds, they would eventually bury him.

Come on, you can do better than that. You've been accusing me of making false statements since well before this even came up. Getting desperate?

@wrenchmonkey
Ah, now you begin to backpedal frantically. I guess you finally realize that I can and will quote your misinformation as warnings to others who might order from BFL.

More disinformation from you: The IRS does not "request" indictments. They investigate and if they determine a crime has been committed that should be prosecuted, they then recommend that case to the DoJ. The DoJ does their own investigation and analysis and then determine if an indictment should be issued. In this case, the investigation was initiated by the US Postal Inspection Service and the prosecution was done by the DoJ.
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/PressRoom/nr110114.htm

More disinformation from you: The case was strong enough that the ring leader was sentenced to 5 years. Of course, Sonny pled out first and had counts dropped in exchange for his plea testimony. Had he not pled guilty and given his plea deal testimony he might have had the book thrown at him.
You can read all about every single filing in the case here: http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=1500526

Perhaps you should actually read the evidence instead of just dreaming up what you would like to have happened and representing it here as fact.

[Syke]

They apparently weren't given a particularly strong case, however, throwing out most of the charges in exchange for avoiding a trial (for which they have unlimited funding). Federal prosecutors only care about a conviction rate. If they think they don't have a particularly strong case, they'll throw out most of it in exchange for a mere conviction.

"mere conviction"? They extradicted his ass from Italy and threw him in prison for a couple years. Small time crooks don't get such serious treatment.

[Minor Miner]

Wow, schizophrenic much? This is like watching Russel Crowe 'decrypt the Russian secrets in the newspapers,' minus the whole 'brilliant human being' part.

I occasionally buy copper Bullion, when I can pick it up below spot. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that bullion is easier to store than coins. Copper is sold by the POUND or more, to most serious buyers, and a pile of 5lb ingots is MUCH easier to store than 5 lbs of pennies.

I call bullshit.   So you "trade" $15 dollar 5lb copper ingots and take physical delivery of them?   BS.  After delivery and return delivery you could not make money.

[k9quaint]

Wow, schizophrenic much? This is like watching Russel Crowe 'decrypt the Russian secrets in the newspapers,' minus the whole 'brilliant human being' part.

I occasionally buy copper Bullion, when I can pick it up below spot. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that bullion is easier to store than coins. Copper is sold by the POUND or more, to most serious buyers, and a pile of 5lb ingots is MUCH easier to store than 5 lbs of pennies.

I call bullshit.   So you "trade" $15 dollar 5lb copper ingots and take physical delivery of them?   BS.  After delivery and return delivery you could not make money.

Both Sonny Vleidises and "Wrenchmonkey" have invested in schemes involving physical copper. Interesting. 

[Xian01]

Wow, schizophrenic much? This is like watching Russel Crowe 'decrypt the Russian secrets in the newspapers,' minus the whole 'brilliant human being' part.
I occasionally buy copper Bullion, when I can pick it up below spot. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that bullion is easier to store than coins. Copper is sold by the POUND or more, to most serious buyers, and a pile of 5lb ingots is MUCH easier to store than 5 lbs of pennies.

I call bullshit.   So you "trade" $15 dollar 5lb copper ingots and take physical delivery of them?   BS.  After delivery and return delivery you could not make money.

Both Sonny Vleidises and "Wrenchmonkey" have invested in schemes involving physical copper. Interesting. 

 What are the odds ? Very very suspicious indeed.

[yxt]

@wrenchmonkey

Why do you invest so much time defending BFL 

Not defending BFL, per se. Just toying with the trolls. 

Ok

Why do you invest so much time "toying with the trolls"?

[wrenchmonkey]

There's also a difference between what I said, and what you actually accuse me of saying. I didn't say I was an "expert" on anything. I said I've read plenty of legal documents.

The questions was asked why anybody would place an order with a company who X,Y,Z. I responded as to why I (being one of those people) placed an order with said company, in spite of X,Y,Z. And was attacked for it. Don't ask the fucking question if you don't want the answer.

@wrenchmonkey
Perhaps if your posts were not laden with false statements, the community might be less hostile towards you. Also, you could lessen your use of the terms "troll", "douche", and such. Continuous name calling is one of the tactics BFL PR uses on these forums and it does not engender feelings of respect.

Finally, you might spend a little time reading before you make ridiculous assertions. Weirdly, you are not the first account on bitcointalk to suggest that Mr. Vleisides was the victim of evil government or media machinations. I expect you will not be the last. From our point of view, it is you and those like you that sounds like the broken record. Just another low post account who either hasn't read any history behind the issues, or is deliberately clouding the air for reasons unknown.

@ bitcoiner49er
Love your analogy extension. No cats, but still excellent internets.  

You keep accusing me of false statements, but you're unable to produce any. Who is the broken record?  

You said the IRS indicted Sonny. I corrected you.
You said it was an IRS witch hunt. I corrected you.
You just said you made no false statements. I have now corrected you.
You will continue to make false statements in support of BFL for reasons that are not clear.

No, you're playing the semantics game. The US DOJ files indictments for the entity that requests it. In this case, the IRS.

I said that it appears to me to be little more than an IRS witch hunt (statement of opinion, not of fact, and not up for debate in terms of "false statements"),

The US DOJ would have been merely accessory to (since they're the ones who actually do the prosecution, once a case/witch hunt gets turned over to them).

They apparently weren't given a particularly strong case, however, throwing out most of the charges in exchange for avoiding a trial (for which they have unlimited funding). Federal prosecutors only care about a conviction rate. If they think they don't have a particularly strong case, they'll throw out most of it in exchange for a mere conviction. If they actually thought he was a bad guy, they would've thrown the book at him, knowing that they with a strong case, and unlimited funds, they would eventually bury him.

Come on, you can do better than that. You've been accusing me of making false statements since well before this even came up. Getting desperate?

@wrenchmonkey
Ah, now you begin to backpedal frantically. I guess you finally realize that I can and will quote your misinformation as warnings to others who might order from BFL.

More disinformation from you: The IRS does not "request" indictments. They investigate and if they determine a crime has been committed that should be prosecuted, they then recommend that case to the DoJ. The DoJ does their own investigation and analysis and then determine if an indictment should be issued. In this case, the investigation was initiated by the US Postal Inspection Service and the prosecution was done by the DoJ.
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/PressRoom/nr110114.htm

More disinformation from you: The case was strong enough that the ring leader was sentenced to 5 years. Of course, Sonny pled out first and had counts dropped in exchange for his plea testimony. Had he not pled guilty and given his plea deal testimony he might have had the book thrown at him.
You can read all about every single filing in the case here: http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=1500526

Perhaps you should actually read the evidence instead of just dreaming up what you would like to have happened and representing it here as fact.

"Recommend" is another word for "Request" in this instance. Now then, is it your assertion that the IRS was not, in fact, involved in this case, or are you merely trying to obfuscate the issue more?

Simple question. Yes or No. Was the IRS involved in the case that was brought against Mr. Vlesides?

[PuertoLibre]

Caption: BFL Josh (left) watches studiously as Yifu and Team Avalon (pictured right) school him on ASICs and product development.

[wrenchmonkey]

Wow, schizophrenic much? This is like watching Russel Crowe 'decrypt the Russian secrets in the newspapers,' minus the whole 'brilliant human being' part.

I occasionally buy copper Bullion, when I can pick it up below spot. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that bullion is easier to store than coins. Copper is sold by the POUND or more, to most serious buyers, and a pile of 5lb ingots is MUCH easier to store than 5 lbs of pennies.

I call bullshit.   So you "trade" $15 dollar 5lb copper ingots and take physical delivery of them?   BS.  After delivery and return delivery you could not make money.

Both Sonny Vleidises and "Wrenchmonkey" have invested in schemes involving physical copper. Interesting. 

"Schemes" Wow, you're really reaching, aren't you?

I happen to live very near to one of the largest copper mines in the United States. There are people who have physical copper here, and I bought a moderate amount of physical copper a few years ago, for below spot, when spot price was below $2. I sold most of it for a few cents ABOVE spot, when spot was not too far below $5. This wasn't a scheme, it was a purchase and a sale, and some trades on futures.

I must admit, it's been amusing watching you "super sleuths" perform your mental acrobatics trying to find some bizarre attack to try to discredit me with. The outlandish conclusions you've come up with (and continue to come up with) only reinforce my opinions that the same crazy antics that are being used to try and discredit me, for no apparent reason, are the same tactics used to try and discredit Sonny. It only gives me more confidence that Sonny is not the person you kooks are so wont to paint him as.

I could be completely wrong, or course, it's possible that in all your kooky conspiracy theories, between thinking that *I* am Sonny, or that I'm running some sort of a "penny scheme" (whatever the fuck that is), that somebody actually nailed it, and Sonny is just a fly by night crook, who is waiting for the right dollar amount to fall into his lap, before skipping town, but I'm highly doubtful. I think you're all a bunch of board teenagers/adult children basement-dwellers, with nothing better to do than troll the forums with your absurd concocted theories.

You strike me as the type of kook who would see a Lincolin Continental, and say 'Hey, wasn't Kennedy shot in a Lincolin Continental? That guy drives a Lincolin... President Lincolin was also assassinated by being shot in the head... it all makes sense. The driver of that car must be a Freemason, who is in on the giant conspiracy to symbolically name a vehicle after one assassinated president, and then use that vehicle as the presidential limousine, in which to assassinate another president! Proof that it was the Freemasons, right there!"

And then some other fucking retad comes along and says, 'Why yes, that IS very curious. Excellent detective work!' and then you all go have a circle jerk in your parents' basement.  

[k9quaint]

"Recommend" is another word for "Request" in this instance. Now then, is it your assertion that the IRS was not, in fact, involved in this case, or are you merely trying to obfuscate the issue more?

Simple question. Yes or No. Was the IRS involved in the case that was brought against Mr. Vlesides?

I don't have to obfuscate anything. I posted links to every legal document filed in United States v. Vleisides et al. You posted that you read somewhere on the internet that it is cool to defraud retired senior citizens of their savings.

Yes. The IRS was involved in that investigation.
I am glad you backpedaled from IRS indicted him, to IRS was involved in the investigation. The evidence presented to the grand jury did include tax returns filed by the defendants to prove the income flowed from the lottery scams to their personal funds. IMO, the IRS criminal investigation unit should be consulted in financial crimes committed by US citizens. Tax returns are great way to establish ownership of funds and mens rea. Of course, if they didn't declare the funds on their taxes you have them for tax evasion.

The US postal inspectors are currently responsible for investigating mail fraud, which is what the defendants committed, were charged with, and were convicted of. You should be building a conspiracy theory against the USPS.

And regarding your other nonsense about the copper:
I don't think you are Sonny, he seems way more competent than you. I just find it interesting that you felate BFL, you think mail fraud scams are cool, and you also invested in copper. Of course, you provide absolutely no evidence what so ever and whenever you are proven a liar you just backpedal and pretend nothing happened.