Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[PuertoLibre]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

No. I do mine, but I am not currently using Avalon, ASICMiner or BFL.

I should thank BFL for sucking up all the capital that would have gone to either Avalon or ASICMiner. That capital would have been converted to hashing equipment sooner and impacted the network hash rate (and thus my profits) sooner. BFL has put money in my pocket by being so late.

Amen, I keep telling people that BFL reps are a secret fans of Avalon. They are probably just shy.

[Xian01]

Then you come here and warn people, but get insulted by low post count noobs.

Lol .. calling a noob a noob..  you must feel so much better about yourself now.

All of your 15 posts in one day. Very impressive.
How long will this one last? A week? A month?

I am sorry I missed your point ? I think you lost yourself in your noob rage ..

Ivan, you have no right calling anyone a noob here considering your low post count.  I thought you were smarter than you are letting on. I'm sorry to see you have drank so much of BFLs koolaid

[int03h]

Then you come here and warn people, but get insulted by low post count noobs.

Lol .. calling a noob a noob..  you must feel so much better about yourself now.

All of your 15 posts in one day. Very impressive.
How long will this one last? A week? A month?

I am sorry I missed your point ? I think you lost yourself in your noob rage ..

Ivan, you have no right calling anyone a noob here considering your low post count.  I thought you were smarter than you are letting on. I'm sorry to see you have drank so much of BFLs koolaid

Logic fail. Who did I call a noob?  and who is Ivan?

[int03h]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

No. I do mine, but I am not currently using Avalon, ASICMiner or BFL.

I should thank BFL for sucking up all the capital that would have gone to either Avalon or ASICMiner. That capital would have been converted to hashing equipment sooner and impacted the network hash rate (and thus my profits) sooner. BFL has put money in my pocket by being so late.

Amen, I keep telling people that BFL reps are a secret fans of Avalon. They are probably just shy.

If only you actually had one PL. Am I right <wink> !?

[nottm28]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

No. I do mine, but I am not currently using Avalon, ASICMiner or BFL.

I should thank BFL for sucking up all the capital that would have gone to either Avalon or ASICMiner. That capital would have been converted to hashing equipment sooner and impacted the network hash rate (and thus my profits) sooner. BFL has put money in my pocket by being so late.

Amen, I keep telling people that BFL reps are a secret fans of Avalon. They are probably just shy.

If only you actually had one PL. Am I right <wink> !?

It's well known puerto has a 60 GH/s avalon asic - he tells everyone about it - and he slags off BFL any chance he can get on any thread in the forum - correlation ?

[Endlessa]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

Actually Swede is right, you need to learn a little about business. I think half of this problem is because you niche grass roots people were previously the only peeps running around Bitconia and now business people are coming in.  None of this is unfamiliar to anybody who has been involved in business negotiations and processes for any significant amount of time.  BFL doesn't scare us, because we know the pattern, we've seen it dozens of times.  We even understand how to mitigate it. It happens, it's not unusual and we're comfortable with it.  So grab your foil hats people, we're here and we aren't scared of it.  We will not bow to your bloated FUD and we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

Actually, Swede is wrong. In most states, anytime a product is sold, the seller creates what are called "implied warranties" merely by the act of selling. These are usually simple rules like: the product exists, it does what they say it does, it costs how much they say it costs, etc. Swede might live in a jurisdiction that has limited consumer protection, but since BFL is selling to all 50 states they are subject many state laws and federal consumer protection laws. If Newegg or Amazon were to represent to you that they had something in stock when they actually didn't, they would be violating federal laws and numerous state laws. Or if you bought a device they said existed when it actually did not, they would be in even more trouble. For instance: Ebay marketplace has very strict rules about when you can say something is "in stock", if you violate those rules they kick you to the curb. That is not an arbitrary distinction they are making, it is a necessary one.

"Being around business" as you put it is actually quite common for us engineers on these forums.

The gas station has the gas. It probably also has the gum. Selling products that do not yet exist is not the same thing as refusing service in a retail establishment. This is why Kickstarter won't let you order multiple units and classifies your contributions as donations. Otherwise they eaten alive by lawsuits for facilitating the breaking consumer protection laws.

the Implied contract your talking about is covered under UCC there it the revision (which I understand to be the controlling factor) for the state of missouri:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/40002A0505.HTM

400.2A-505. (1) On cancellation of the lease contract, all obligations that are still executory on both sides are discharged, but any right based on prior default or performance survives, and the cancelling party also retains any remedy for default of the whole lease contract or any unperformed balance.

(2) On termination of the lease contract, all obligations that are still executory on both sides are discharged but any right based on prior default or performance survives.

(3) Unless the contrary intention clearly appears, expressions of "cancellation", "rescission", or the like of the lease contract may not be construed as a renunciation or discharge of any claim in damages for an antecedent default.

(4) Rights and remedies for material misrepresentation or fraud include all rights and remedies available under this Article for default.

(5) Neither rescission nor a claim for rescission of the lease contract nor rejection or return of the goods may bar or be deemed inconsistent with a claim for damages or other right or remedy.

Now I'm no lawyer, so correct me where you see fit to argue point or redirect me to where you feel I haven't looked.

but it seems that (1) says that cancellation relieves both parties from "obligations that are still executory", so unless he can prove prior breach, there is no recourse

please let me know if I miss something.

also  christians(xian)'s order https://i.imgur.com/V2b80U1.jpg (he was nice enough to post it one day in a moment of douche bag braggery)
was placed when the web site appeared like this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120628113158/http://www.butterflylabs.com/order-form-bitforce-sc-single/

it cleared stated "currently scheduled for October", which clearly show "scheduled" not "shipping" which is a huge difference.

so that's out as point of default

and since he and everybody else who didn't just accept the refund agreed to the new specification in accordance with UCC, there isn't much else to say... .

now I'm no lawyer and this isn't to be construed as legal advice, feel free to point to the mistakes, as I would enjoy learning through interaction. truly

[k9quaint]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

No. I do mine, but I am not currently using Avalon, ASICMiner or BFL.

I should thank BFL for sucking up all the capital that would have gone to either Avalon or ASICMiner. That capital would have been converted to hashing equipment sooner and impacted the network hash rate (and thus my profits) sooner. BFL has put money in my pocket by being so late.

Amen, I keep telling people that BFL reps are a secret fans of Avalon. They are probably just shy.

If only you actually had one PL. Am I right <wink> !?

It's well known puerto has a 60 GH/s avalon asic - he tells everyone about it - and he slags off BFL any chance he can get on any thread in the forum - correlation ?

People who put money into Avalon will probably get their chips and/or mining units. ASICMiner has also been a reliable way to convert capital into network hash rate. There is currently no evidence that I am aware of to support the contrary.

To date BFL is an unreliable way to convert your money into hash rate. Moreover, there have been a continuous series of delays which benefited all miners. To maximize their profits, every miner should encourage people looking for ASICs to order from BFL.

[Endlessa]

we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

That's a quality comment - made me laugh

Hehehe I only slept an hour last night and I tend to just say what I mean

Did your daily Midnight to 2AM discussion with LukeJr go longer than expected last night?

Sonny "The Hash King" Vleisides would be proud.

Your getting boring now. . .do something to entertain me monkey man!

M'kay! Had to use my new crayons.

<snip>

No. I am explaining to you the current state of events.  You chose to disbelieve me, which is your prerogative.  It does not, however, make you correct.  You very rarely get ANYTHING correct, and this time is no different.  I honestly can't tell if it's from mental incapacity or you do it intentionally just because you like to stir up trouble.  So good on you for being so opaque that you are quite possibly indistinguishable from a monkey banging on a keyboard.

rofl is there any word inaba hasn't already used?

[Endlessa]

A more apt analogy:
You pay in advance entrance fee to a club...
Club turns out to be an empty warehouse filled with fans...
Bouncer threatens you for warning others about the club.

in this case, you take your smokes - finish your drink (assuming they had a bar - in which case there was no need to get comfortable ) - take the refund they offer you at the door and fuck off.

Except that I paid a lot of money to attend the club grand opening a year ago, and they threw me out for complaining about the lack of drinks and music when the DJ was laughing at all of us for paying the cover charge.

They threw  you out and said, "Go home xian you are drunk!"

[Endlessa]

Then you come here and warn people, but get insulted by low post count noobs.

Lol .. calling a noob a noob..  you must feel so much better about yourself now.

All of your 15 posts in one day. Very impressive.
How long will this one last? A week? A month?

I am sorry I missed your point ? I think you lost yourself in your noob rage ..

Ivan, you have no right calling anyone a noob here considering your low post count.  I thought you were smarter than you are letting on. I'm sorry to see you have drank so much of BFLs koolaid

hahah cuz having an account in bitcointalk is the ultimate measure of how long you've been in bitcoin

[int03h]

I am sorry I missed your point

Yep. I don't expect you to understand anything.

Over under on when int03h vanishes into the setting sun: 18 days.

I'll take the under  

You want to bet on that?

<EDIT> I don't understand because you don't make any fucking sense.. 

Go put a bet on a bitcoin betting site. I don't do anything without escrow that involves people who only have posts dated from today. 
Of course I don't make sense to you. Nothing I type will ever make sense to you.

So you ignore the underlying problem with your logic and continue to address the fact that I decided to call bullshit today. I see.

Nothing you type will make sense because it doesn't make sense.

[Endlessa]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

No. I do mine, but I am not currently using Avalon, ASICMiner or BFL.

I should thank BFL for sucking up all the capital that would have gone to either Avalon or ASICMiner. That capital would have been converted to hashing equipment sooner and impacted the network hash rate (and thus my profits) sooner. BFL has put money in my pocket by being so late.

Amen, I keep telling people that BFL reps are a secret fans of Avalon. They are probably just shy.

If only you actually had one PL. Am I right <wink> !?

It's well known puerto has a 60 GH/s avalon asic - he tells everyone about it - and he slags off BFL any chance he can get on any thread in the forum - correlation ?

People who put money into Avalon will probably get their chips and/or mining units. ASICMiner has also been a reliable way to convert capital into network hash rate. There is currently no evidence that I am aware of to support the contrary.

To date BFL is an unreliable way to convert your money into hash rate. Moreover, there have been a continuous series of delays which benefited all miners. To maximize their profits, every miner should encourage people looking for ASICs to order from BFL.

AM is currently behind on deployment with no real reasonable explanation.  unless, you consider, we're scared to go past 24% a reasonable explanation. . .friedcat acknowledges more "network and psu" issues. .. so yeah not quite where they "planned" to be either

[nottm28]

A more apt analogy:
You pay in advance entrance fee to a club...
Club turns out to be an empty warehouse filled with fans...
Bouncer threatens you for warning others about the club.

in this case, you take your smokes - finish your drink (assuming they had a bar - in which case there was no need to get comfortable ) - take the refund they offer you at the door and fuck off.

Except that I paid a lot of money to attend the club grand opening a year ago, and they threw me out for complaining about the lack of drinks and music when the DJ was laughing at all of us for paying the cover charge.

They threw  you out and said, "Go home xian you are drunk!"

I like that too...

The trouble is that xian can no longer respond to you, seeing as he stated he is 'ignoring' you. Although he did previously state that he added me to his 'ignore' list - but later replied anyway, so you might get lucky...

[Endlessa]

A more apt analogy:
You pay in advance entrance fee to a club...
Club turns out to be an empty warehouse filled with fans...
Bouncer threatens you for warning others about the club.

in this case, you take your smokes - finish your drink (assuming they had a bar - in which case there was no need to get comfortable ) - take the refund they offer you at the door and fuck off.

Except that I paid a lot of money to attend the club grand opening a year ago, and they threw me out for complaining about the lack of drinks and music when the DJ was laughing at all of us for paying the cover charge.

They threw  you out and said, "Go home xian you are drunk!"

I like that too...

The trouble is that xian can no longer respond to you, seeing as he stated he is 'ignoring' you. Although he did previously state that he added me to his 'ignore' list - but later replied anyway, so you might get lucky...

yeah but the best part is he see you quoting me so what did that tool really accomplish?

[int03h]

I am sorry I missed your point

Yep. I don't expect you to understand anything.

Over under on when int03h vanishes into the setting sun: 18 days.

I'll take the under  

You want to bet on that?

<EDIT> I don't understand because you don't make any fucking sense..  

Go put a bet on a bitcoin betting site. I don't do anything without escrow that involves people who only have posts dated from today.  
Of course I don't make sense to you. Nothing I type will ever make sense to you.

Let us first discuss the terms since I am not really clear on what it is you were implying.. (NOTE IT IS YOU THAT IS SAYING IT .. NOT ME )
But I see there is a bet here somewhere .. please articulate it as best you can.. I am happy to put up 10BTC..

[k9quaint]

the Implied contract your talking about is covered under UCC there it the revision (which I understand to be the controlling factor) for the state of missouri:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/40002A0505.HTM

400.2A-505. (1) On cancellation of the lease contract, all obligations that are still executory on both sides are discharged, but any right based on prior default or performance survives, and the cancelling party also retains any remedy for default of the whole lease contract or any unperformed balance.

(2) On termination of the lease contract, all obligations that are still executory on both sides are discharged but any right based on prior default or performance survives.

(3) Unless the contrary intention clearly appears, expressions of "cancellation", "rescission", or the like of the lease contract may not be construed as a renunciation or discharge of any claim in damages for an antecedent default.

(4) Rights and remedies for material misrepresentation or fraud include all rights and remedies available under this Article for default.

(5) Neither rescission nor a claim for rescission of the lease contract nor rejection or return of the goods may bar or be deemed inconsistent with a claim for damages or other right or remedy.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap407.htm

407.020. 1. The act, use or employment by any person of any deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, suppression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisement of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in section 407.453, in or from the state of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice. The use by any person, in connection with the sale or advertisement of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in section 407.453, in or from the state of Missouri of the fact that the attorney general has approved any filing required by this chapter as the approval, sanction or endorsement of any activity, project or action of such person, is declared to be an unlawful practice. Any act, use or employment declared unlawful by this subsection violates this subsection whether committed before, during or after the sale, advertisement or solicitation.

That I believe would be the governing statute in the state of Missouri

Now I'm no lawyer, so correct me where you see fit to argue point or redirect me to where you feel I haven't looked.

but it seems that (1) says that cancellation relieves both parties from "obligations that are still executory", so unless he can prove prior breach, there is no recourse

please let me know if I miss something.

also  christians(xian)'s order https://i.imgur.com/V2b80U1.jpg
was placed when the web site appeared like this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120628113158/http://www.butterflylabs.com/order-form-bitforce-sc-single/

it cleared stated "currently scheduled for October", which clearly show "scheduled" not "shipping" which is a huge difference.

so that's out as point of default

Yes, when he ordered it was scheduled for October. After that date came and went, the series of misrepresentations about the state of the product became more numerous. But even before then, statements about measurements of power usage and performance were made. It was only after BFL shipped their first few units that people realized that those claims about power usage could not possibly have been valid. In fact, there is much evidence to suggest that BFL did not have any working chips at all by October 2012. Of course, that would have made it impossible to measure the power usage of them.

and since he and everybody else who didn't just accept the refund agreed to the new specification in accordance with UCC, there isn't much else to say... .

now I'm no lawyer and this isn't to be construed as legal advice, feel free to point to the mistakes, as I would enjoy learning through interaction. truly

Yes. Having their customers agree to the new specifications was a very important legal hurdle for BFL to surmount. Had they not done so, they would have been up a creek sans paddle so to speak. The problem is that BFL took payment in full for the pre-orders. Most companies do not charge your card for the full amount until they can ship you the product. They authorize the purchase, but do not complete it. BFL could not support credit cards to pre-order because CC companies frown on imaginary products being sold (they will yank your account and freeze your funds). That puts them into a very gray legal area. For instance, how do they account for those funds? They cannot be sales because they have not shipped the units. Do they collect sales tax? Do they escrow the funds? Are they using the funds for capital investments and/or development? Did they notify their customers that their pre-order funds would be used for these purposes and does that constitute a solicitation of investment?

Edit: And yes, ASICMiner has only achieved 24% of the network hash rate. I believe only Avalon unit account for a larger percentage. But ASICMiner is walking carefully for very good reason. Right now, friedcat and btcguild could get together and attempt a 51% attack. The fact that it only takes 2 entities to accomplish this makes a lot of people nervous.

[nottm28]

A more apt analogy:
You pay in advance entrance fee to a club...
Club turns out to be an empty warehouse filled with fans...
Bouncer threatens you for warning others about the club.

in this case, you take your smokes - finish your drink (assuming they had a bar - in which case there was no need to get comfortable ) - take the refund they offer you at the door and fuck off.

Except that I paid a lot of money to attend the club grand opening a year ago, and they threw me out for complaining about the lack of drinks and music when the DJ was laughing at all of us for paying the cover charge.

They threw  you out and said, "Go home xian you are drunk!"

I like that too...

The trouble is that xian can no longer respond to you, seeing as he stated he is 'ignoring' you. Although he did previously state that he added me to his 'ignore' list - but later replied anyway, so you might get lucky...

yeah but the best part is he see you quoting me so what did that tool really accomplish?

No he wont see my posts because he has 'apparently' marked me as 'ignored' too - so we are safe

[k9quaint]

I am not really clear on what it is you were implying

And you never will be. You could get 1000 posts in a day and you would still not understand a thing.

[nottm28]

I am not really clear on what it is you were implying

And you never will be. You could get 1000 posts in a day and you would still not understand a thing.

K9 - so assuming you have been following and read the posts in this thread from the beginning - are you defending xian's actions towards BFL?

[EDIT] and do you think it wise he blew away $15k by bitching when he could have sold his 2012 pre-order (for 5 x what he paid).

[darkmule]

Moron on ignore.

Look up "offer and acceptance."  Drooler.