-

[mmmerlin]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1

[mmmerlin]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1

+1

[mmmerlin]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I was being reticent before and left myself a little open to attack; most of the obligations are pretty clearly defined in the contracts that were signed.

Out of interest though, who are the "known shills" you are referring to?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to call people out in public, though I have a feeling this is not something you're going to be too worried about

Paying attention to what authoritative sources bother to post here for the benefit of everyone else would be a step in the right direction. The first step, really, before encouraging things you're (rightfully) reticent about.

I'm disgustingly happy with my laziness and choose to ignore anything that contradicts my preconceived notions.

FTFY.

You must be lost, the kitchen isn't in this thread.

a) this is childish sexism and is totally uncalled for, but this is the internet so there is little point in me arguing against it other than to say you are not voicing my opinion, but also

b) you are aware that MPOE-PR is not female despite his avatar, right?

She refused to bring you a sandwich didn't she.

-1

+1

I don't want to start a fight over this, I just wanted it to be clear I didn't have your back on this one. I know MPOE-PR is not to everyone's taste, but I have respect for his/her opinions (particularly when phrased nicely, however rare this might be), whatever the gender, as I do yours. I know my fantasy of us all just getting along is deluded as this is not only the internet but also the bitcointalk forum, but hey, you've gotta try, right?

[mmmerlin]

I don't want to start a fight over this, I just wanted it to be clear I didn't have your back on this one. I know MPOE-PR is not to everyone's taste, but I have respect for his/her opinions (particularly when phrased nicely, however rare this might be), whatever the gender, as I do yours. I know my fantasy of us all just getting along is deluded as this is not only the internet but also the bitcointalk forum, but hey, you've gotta try, right?

Valiant effort though! Let's keep this back on topic, I don't believe MPOE-PR offers any valuable criticism to this "Security" that is all.

You can see the bitterness she and he (Yes they are a duo) possess when it comes to any competition in the marketplace. Their "Know-it-all" attitude might have worked in the early bitcoin days.

I shall put them back on ignore (Not sure why I ever took them off, maybe I have a obsession with watching people destroy themselves with words)

Fair enough, and yes, bringing things back on topic is rarely a bad thing! Hopefully we'll get word on (the relevant bits of) this discussion at some point...

[maqifrnswa]

Valiant effort though! Let's keep this back on topic, I don't believe MPOE-PR offers any valuable criticism to this "Security" that is all.

To keep it on topic, MPOE added some very valuable criticism and brought up an important point that many are missing. Are vague contracts, even if they turn a profit and make money, harmful to Bitcoin as a whole?

The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.

The typical response is, "look how much money I made! LRM is great, how can anyone question it?" MPOE's point is, profit aside, should we as a community support things that would not be supported outside of bitcoin?

I don't fault LabRat at all, he had a strategy and pursued it -- successfully raised a lot of money for his company and is mining. He performed excellently since his company owns hardware assets, is generating revenue (from fees), all with minimal outlay and no equity dilution! It is brilliant, he owns all the upside and has passed along all the downside to investors. I wish I could buy stock in LRM, but of course he won't sell because he can raise funds like an IPO without giving up equity! This is an amazing business model, LabRat deserves credit for turning his bitcoin and mining expertise into one of the greatest start-ups I've ever seen ($1m raised, no secured liabilities, and NO equity lost is ridiculously amazing). But the bigger points remained, should we, as investors, allow such a venture to exist?

[Epoch]

The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.

This is a good observation.

LRM, but as well with the larger consumer/economic aspects of bitcoin in general, are 'amateur hour'. I don't say this out of spite, or as an insult. It is simply the way it is.

The bitcoin environment has been like this for years, with little movement forward to add much needed legitimacy to bitcoin's financial/economic/investment infrastructure. The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on. They, like you, can see the risk of putting money into amateur hands. So they move elsewhere.

The tragedy is, of course, that this is completely avoidable if the operators got their act together and started acting professionally and responsibly instead of like 17 year-old basement dwellers with delusions of grandeur. (no offense to 17 year-old basement dwellers intended)

People who either don't care about risk, are overly naive, or don't fully understand the risks, pat each other on the back and shovel money into endeavours such as this. Sure, they may get lucky, turn a profit, and come out ahead.

Or they may not. But that isn't the point, is it? That isn't *your* point. The point, as you have realized, is that there are many 'amateur hour' operations around that are asking for investment capital. But shine the light of reason on them, and they fall apart. No true investor would touch something with a wishy-washy 'contract', poor transparency, and 'promises' by anonymous internet personas. This is not what 'professionalism' is; it is 'amateur hour'. This is speculation at best, not 'investment'.

I've asked Lab_Rat various questions early on that were important to me as a potential investor; he chose not to answer them; I did not invest. It was that simple. Did I lose out? Honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I, wearing my 'serious investor' hat, didn't see what I was looking for here. So I chose to move on. No big deal. I wonder how many others have done the same.

You asked in closing whether we, as investors, should allow such <amateur hour> ventures to exist. The truth is that they *will* exist; 'we' have little influence on that. There are too many 'kids' (by 'kids' I mean anyone, regardless of physical age, short on financial investing acumen but long on greed) playing with bitcoin right now.

We are all still learning the ropes, and simply by being involved will be a good educational (if not financial) experience. Personally I have nothing against this reality; I don't see it as a detriment to bitcoin. It is simply the way it is. Go with it and enjoy the ride, but go in with eyes wide open. Just like the 'ignore' button on the forum, if you don't like someone's investment offering, you can simply choose to ignore it.

Eventually, though perhaps slowly, bitcoin will mature and begin to attract different types of investors. For now, there's nothing wrong with kids playing in their sandbox; adults know where it is and how to stay out.

[maqifrnswa]

... epoch's post

well said, thanks - don't think I can add to that. Like you said, this is part of the evolution of bitcoin - and will at least be a learning experience for all, and for some they will make a good amount of money.

[mmmerlin]

The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.

This is a good observation.

LRM, but as well with the larger consumer/economic aspects of bitcoin in general, are 'amateur hour'. I don't say this out of spite, or as an insult. It is simply the way it is.

The bitcoin environment has been like this for years, with little movement forward to add much needed legitimacy to bitcoin's financial/economic/investment infrastructure. The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on. They, like you, can see the risk of putting money into amateur hands. So they move elsewhere.

The tragedy is, of course, that this is completely avoidable if the operators got their act together and started acting professionally and responsibly instead of like 17 year-old basement dwellers with delusions of grandeur. (no offense to 17 year-old basement dwellers intended)

People who either don't care about risk, are overly naive, or don't fully understand the risks, pat each other on the back and shovel money into endeavours such as this. Sure, they may get lucky, turn a profit, and come out ahead.

Or they may not. But that isn't the point, is it? That isn't *your* point. The point, as you have realized, is that there are many 'amateur hour' operations around that are asking for investment capital. But shine the light of reason on them, and they fall apart. No true investor would touch something with a wishy-washy 'contract', poor transparency, and 'promises' by anonymous internet personas. This is not what 'professionalism' is; it is 'amateur hour'. This is speculation at best, not 'investment'.

I've asked Lab_Rat various questions early on that were important to me as a potential investor; he chose not to answer them; I did not invest. It was that simple. Did I lose out? Honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I, wearing my 'serious investor' hat, didn't see what I was looking for here. So I chose to move on. No big deal. I wonder how many others have done the same.

You asked in closing whether we, as investors, should allow such <amateur hour> ventures to exist. The truth is that they *will* exist; 'we' have little influence on that. There are too many 'kids' (by 'kids' I mean anyone, regardless of physical age, short on financial investing acumen but long on greed) playing with bitcoin right now.

We are all still learning the ropes, and simply by being involved will be a good educational (if not financial) experience. Personally I have nothing against this reality; I don't see it as a detriment to bitcoin. It is simply the way it is. Go with it and enjoy the ride, but go in with eyes wide open. Just like the 'ignore' button on the forum, if you don't like someone's investment offering, you can simply choose to ignore it.

Eventually, though perhaps slowly, bitcoin will mature and begin to attract different types of investors. For now, there's nothing wrong with kids playing in their sandbox; adults know where it is and how to stay out.

A very good post; eloquent, well put, and many sound points. Essentially I totally agree.

The only difference here is that when I asked Lab_Rat a very long list of question, I got answers to all my points that I liked and which made sense (this wasn't public in case you were wondering where this happened - I've had several hours of phonecalls with him for a start). There was sufficient transparency for me to feel that this would be a good move. I did my risk/reward calculations as well as my homework and decided this was a good proposition. I totally understand why you didn't go for it, but don't assume that everyone here made uninformed decisions. Of course some will have done, but mine certainly wasn't, and from what I have seen so far, I don't think I made a bad call.

All in all though, thanks for an insightful post, I wish more people could say what they want to with that tone, and enter into reasoned debate on things.

[mmmerlin]

The amount of unquantifiable (and avoidable) risk in this security makes it a total gamble; there is a complete lack of rigorous structure you expect in the non-bitcoin investment world. If all bitcoin securities look like this, Bitcoin investment will fail to obtain real traction.

The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on. They, like you, can see the risk of putting money into amateur hands. So they move elsewhere.

FWIW, and on a slightly unrelated note, the reason I mine and don't play the exchanges is primarily ideological.

Mining provides crucial network infrastructure, and the ASIC boom provides resistance against attack, and participants are duly rewarded for their contribution in this regard. Playing the exchanges, however, is an activity that, whilst profitable, does not add value to the bitcoin economy itself. If trading is used to make profit in fiat then it is effectively bleeding money from the bitcoin ecosystem for the gain of the individual. For those reasons I mine instead of a playing the FX game.

As I say, unrelated, but just a thought on the subject...

[fractal02]

The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on.

Yeah...

                       shares           
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LabRatMining   5,071   18whVGfLcTnXva7rFGqwr6DkW1RzS3zJb1
LabRatMining   1,563   1PRzbLxMKSfRf1ZLKYDz6pPuRfd2fpDA2g
LabRatMining   1,300   1ECfbpmtVCtH16yF3m3uhwjX9JrjyQazoh
LabRatMining   4,466   1EGiTu5sz89jjvcoy2FdQNpuks3sPTNn8q
LabRatMining   3,302   147a4NvXCKVoN3mJPCjbTQpbvg2MuZW8S6
LabRatMining   1,669   1FscNBYzd5CqDzUVQ9YapLQNtLbswkM4NL

This guys are small players...right ? Please...
And i didn't take the Sub-thousand shares guys...

For example 5071 shares at 0.15BTC = ~ $ 104 209

Maybee just some kids...maybee

[mmmerlin]

The big players are on the exchanges; there is plenty of volatility to make good profits on.

Yeah...

                       shares            
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LabRatMining   5,071   18whVGfLcTnXva7rFGqwr6DkW1RzS3zJb1
LabRatMining   1,563   1PRzbLxMKSfRf1ZLKYDz6pPuRfd2fpDA2g
LabRatMining   1,300   1ECfbpmtVCtH16yF3m3uhwjX9JrjyQazoh
LabRatMining   4,466   1EGiTu5sz89jjvcoy2FdQNpuks3sPTNn8q
LabRatMining   3,302   147a4NvXCKVoN3mJPCjbTQpbvg2MuZW8S6
LabRatMining   1,669   1FscNBYzd5CqDzUVQ9YapLQNtLbswkM4NL

This guys are small players...right ? Please...
And i didn't take the Sub-thousand shares guys...

For example 5071 shares at 0.15BTC = ~ $ 104 209

Maybee just some kids...maybee

You missed quite a few there as well, here is the full list of people hold >1k bonds in descending order:

5,071      18whVGfLcTnXva7rFGqwr6DkW1RzS3zJb1
4,466      1EGiTu5sz89jjvcoy2FdQNpuks3sPTNn8q
3,302      147a4NvXCKVoN3mJPCjbTQpbvg2MuZW8S6
2,970      13WPdnd9Jah49yHgYwrL3ZBpMT6wZF1EK6
1,669      1FscNBYzd5CqDzUVQ9YapLQNtLbswkM4NL
1,563      1PRzbLxMKSfRf1ZLKYDz6pPuRfd2fpDA2g
1,300      1ECfbpmtVCtH16yF3m3uhwjX9JrjyQazoh
1,000      1J8sk74votoRpUZ1rhzTJLGqrox4x45KjG

I have deliberately left out

2,323      187Pu5nTCpbbfXNeR92mRxzygtNtMpdoJm

as that is Lab_Rat's own wallet from which new bonds are sold and therefore don't (or more accurately shouldn't) receive dividends.

Those 8 wallets represent 45.2% of the bonds in circulation.

EDIT: This is not an argument for anything; remember, a fool and his money are easily parted. I was just correcting the list you made.

[bittymitty]

The current mining rate as per website is ~2.1 TH which should mine aprox. 357 BTC a month/4 = 89.25 BTC for the last week

so (89.25*.75)/49496 bonds = .0018 per bond

This looks like a great dividend to me.  Can anyone corroborate my calculations?

It would also be good to know how much of the 25%(22BTC) will get re-invested into more hashing power?

[mmmerlin]

The current mining rate as per website is ~2.1 TH which should mine aprox. 357 BTC a month/4 = 89.25 BTC for the last week

so (89.25*.75)/49496 bonds = .0018 per bond

This looks like a great dividend to me.  Can anyone corroborate my calculations?

It would also be good to know how much of the 25%(22BTC) will get re-invested into more hashing power?

2,323 of those shares are not dividend paying one as they are "new", unsold shares held by Lab_Rat and should be taken off temporarily while dividends are paid. This hasn't been done the last few weeks, but should start being done again, so your calculation, assuming everything else is correct, should actually go up a little bit.

As to whether it's a "great dividend" I will leave for others to decide. It's certainly a good start, but I expect it to be going up significantly quite soon, so let's just say it's a promising beginning...

That said, the network just crossed 1PH/s... 

[stereotype]

The current mining rate as per website is ~2.1 TH which should mine aprox. 357 BTC a month/4 = 89.25 BTC for the last week

so (89.25*.75)/49496 bonds = .0018 per bond

This looks like a great dividend to me.  Can anyone corroborate my calculations?

It would also be good to know how much of the 25%(22BTC) will get re-invested into more hashing power?

I use this to tell me daily income...... http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

So, 2.1TH produces 12.148btc per/day - 85.036btc per/week

So, (85.036*.75)/49496 = 0.00128 per bond

So as a return% of share price, if bought @ 0.18 (current) = 0.71% weekly return. Is that good for you? (rhetorical question)

[bittymitty]

Well if you compare some other bond dividends per week below it is actually very good for the money IMHO.

Labrat = .0013   as a percentage of the bond price = .0013/.18= 0.72%
Ukyo loan = .000035 as a percentage of the bond price = .000035/.01 = 0.005%
Bit.asic = .00000028 as a percentage of the bond price = .00000028/.0038 = 0.0073%
Activemining = .00000027 as a percentage of the bond price = .00000027/.002 = 0.013%
G-Asicminer-PT = .0019 as a percentage of the bond price = .0019/2.12 = 0.089%

If anyone knows of a better return please let me know....  I guess we will have to wait and see what Icedrill, labcoin etc. produce

[mmmerlin]

The current mining rate as per website is ~2.1 TH which should mine aprox. 357 BTC a month/4 = 89.25 BTC for the last week

so (89.25*.75)/49496 bonds = .0018 per bond

This looks like a great dividend to me.  Can anyone corroborate my calculations?

It would also be good to know how much of the 25%(22BTC) will get re-invested into more hashing power?

I use this to tell me daily income...... http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

So, 2.1TH produces 12.148btc per/day - 85.036btc per/week

So, (85.036*.75)/49496 = 0.00128 per bond

So as a return% of share price, if bought @ 0.18 (current) = 0.71% weekly return. Is that good for you? (rhetorical question)

I heard about this great opportunity where you get exactly ten times that - a 7% weekly return on your investment! Just don't ask any questions about how it works. Don't worry, it's definitely not a ponzi scheme... Is that good for you?  

[mmmerlin]

Well if you compare some other bond dividends per week below it is actually very good for the money IMHO.

Labrat = .0013   as a percentage of the bond price = .0013/.18= 0.72%
Ukyo loan = .000035 as a percentage of the bond price = .000035/.01 = 0.005%
Bit.asic = .00000028 as a percentage of the bond price = .00000028/.0038 = 0.0073%
Activemining = .00000027 as a percentage of the bond price = .00000027/2.12 = 0.013%
G-Asicminer-PT = .0019 as a percentage of the bond price = .0019/2.12 = 0.089%

If anyone knows of a better return please let me know....  I guess we will have to wait and see what Icedrill, labcoin etc. produce

Also, things are really only just getting started. This will be going up a lot very soon, it's early days yet. Yes, it will be hard to keep pace with the network, and will probably fall again at some point in the future (from it's soon to be increased value), but this is not bad rate in and of itself. When you fold in risk, that is a different story, but risk aside, few people would complain about .7% weekly return.

[bittymitty]

I have had enough of this game so I am giving away all my 100 BTC.

If you send me any amount of BTC below 50 I will double it until I have no BTC left.

This is NOT a scam!!!!

[tom.hashemi]

I have had enough of this game so I am giving away all my 100 BTC.

If you send me any amount of BTC below 50 I will double it until I have no BTC left.

This is NOT a scam!!!!

errr.....

[mmmerlin]

I have had enough of this game so I am giving away all my 100 BTC.

If you send me any amount of BTC below 50 I will double it until I have no BTC left.

This is NOT a scam!!!!