Official BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread

[swissmining]

When reading all the stuff here, it's seem to be obiouse that bitmine is nearly insolvent. There is no other explanation I can think of.
Not refunding people, no answers on mail, no help on support, not delivering promised machines, and so on and so on.

All the customers get are lies, delays, if delivered machines that hold not the advertised stats...

Count one and one together. There will be nothing to expect from this company.

For me the result is, going to police and get lawyers involved. The only chance that bitmine left for their custumers. I'm done with this company, never got fucked so hard up like this.

@giorgio:
you read all this, still no reaction. what is going on? you really want people to get courts involved? This will be the end of your buisness for sure. Reputation is gone forever, future buisness will not be possible. I will tell everyone that wants to here and that not wants to hear that your are a scam company.

Thats it, I'm out, rest will do the court and police next week. Enjoy and have fun giorgio....

Of course he's reading:

Name:   giorgiomassa
Posts:   221
Activity:   221
Position:   Full Member
Date Registered:   May 07, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
Last Active:   Today at 11:38:03 AM

But he probably thinks he's invulnerable since he personally didn't contract with anybody. Giorgio: Get advice from your lawyer. According to swiss fair trade law and the swiss penalty code, you as a private person (not your company) can be hold accountable for the disaster YOU produced. I don't get it why you don't have the balls to come out straight and tell the truth to your dear customers. If you solve this mess directly with them (and me), they might understand and it's possible to find a bearable solution for everyone. With every day that passes by, you probalby are in deeper shit. Customers are getting more angry and at a certain point they won't forgive you, they just want to see you prosecuted by LE.

[tracyhh]

I called you(BITMINE) on the phone today and been told I have to wait until 10 of May(next Saturday) if I want to request a refund...which means 71days+..... so disappointed, and I read the CPP again..it seems you are right：after 71 days totally I can request a refund...
but I will not change my mind..on 10 of May,I will request a refund again..
I post here because I hope someone like me will see these ,and we should fight together for our right and our money back..if I can get the machine next week does not help,considered the diff of the bitcoin...there will no profits at all..

if I have enough money,I can buy 1T machine in China  with less than a half price of the products of BITMINE immediately,pay attentions : immediately, no need to wait..., even that,it's hard  for profits...

Thanks for the update. What was your order for (rig or desk), and what was the promised delivery date?

my order is for desk,.. and was initially promised for the February last week...

[tracyhh]

Ok,

BitMine support told me: No, you will receive your refund at some point within 30 days from the day you sent us the refund form

April 5th + 30 days = May 5th = Monday.

Today is the last working day before Monday, so will I get my BTC refund today?

they are lying.....

[AdamT]

Ok,

BitMine support told me: No, you will receive your refund at some point within 30 days from the day you sent us the refund form

April 5th + 30 days = May 5th = Monday.

Today is the last working day before Monday, so will I get my BTC refund today?

they are lying.....

Definitely full of sh*t. It's been 32 days since I requested a refund. As predicted, no wire yet. No respond from refund@bitmine.ch from an email days ago.

[nhminer]

On the positive side -- Support seems to be working their tickets -- I've had two responses today to outstanding issues

~nhminer

[coinpool_de]

Ok,

BitMine support told me: No, you will receive your refund at some point within 30 days from the day you sent us the refund form

April 5th + 30 days = May 5th = Monday.

Today is the last working day before Monday, so will I get my BTC refund today?

these Bitmine assholes are so ignorant.... they told me I shouldn't expect my refund within these 30 days. Maybe after these days, I should call them if not.



FU$"$DFSC

i made it on 26th of march. Called them today. Where is my money?
He try to make the refund today....
I asked him why today. i sent you the refund request on 26.03. -> no answer to this question.

liars... i will update here everyone when i get the money... i do not think i have it next week... maybe next week. this is bitmine...

[coinpool_de]

On the positive side -- Support seems to be working their tickets -- I've had two responses today to outstanding issues

~nhminer

yes... i called them and had only to wait 30 seconds i think...

[GodfatherBond]

Upgraded miners to newest firmware. Smooth process. Thx for update.

Another runs turbo extreme mode around 1.2TH / 54C
but another seems to have some problem with module 1, now running turbo moderate around 1.1TH / 54C


Module 1 => 117.81 Gh/s
Module 2 => 240.23 Gh/s
Module 3 => 241.52 Gh/s
Module 4 => 236.09 Gh/s
Module 5 => 244.18 Gh/s


Module 1 => 241.51 Gh/s
Module 2 => 234.68 Gh/s
Module 3 => 239.25 Gh/s
Module 4 => 238.90 Gh/s
Module 5 => 233.16 Gh/s

[salve80]

hi i recived today two Coincraft Desk but one of them i cant login the web interface because no site is found.. but the device shows me mining with 1000ghash and i can also login with ssh..
can i restart the webserver or something to reset??
need to change the minig-pool

EDIT:
python /mineros/web/index.py  --> does not run...
if i start it manual, i become this:

##################
root@raspberrypi:/mineros/web# python /mineros/web/index.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/mineros/web/index.py", line 13, in <module>
    import mako_h
  File "/mineros/web/mako_h.py", line 2, in <module>
    from mako.lookup import TemplateLookup
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/mako/lookup.py", line 9, in <module>
    from mako.template import Template
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/mako/template.py", line 10, in <module>
    from mako.lexer import Lexer
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/mako/lexer.py", line 12, in <module>
    from mako.pygen import adjust_whitespace
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/mako/pygen.py", line 210
SyntaxError: Non-ASCII character '\x98' in file /usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/mako/pygen.py on line 211, but no encoding declared; see http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0263.html for details
root@raspberrypi:/mineros/web#
####################

if i restart this on another miner it works like this:

##############
root@raspberrypi:/mineros# python /mineros/web/index.py
[22/Apr/2014:16:00:08] ENGINE Bus STARTING
[22/Apr/2014:16:00:08] ENGINE Forking once.
root@raspberrypi:/mineros# [22/Apr/2014:16:00:08] ENGINE Forking twice.
##############


so whats wrong???

[stevebrowne]

On the positive side -- Support seems to be working their tickets -- I've had two responses today to outstanding issues

They don't seem to be answering tickets regarding refunds, which I shouldn't be surprised about. But yet I am, considering the potential issues that screwing us around will cause them.

I assume that like in the UK, the Swiss legal thing is like a winding-up order? Basically the bank accounts get frozen and the company will be compulsorily closed.

It is used in the UK against companies (big and small) who refuse to payback money owed etc.

[atta2k15]

[Eiskalt|@]

hi i recived today two Coincraft Desk but one of them i cant login the web interface because no site is found.. but the device shows me mining with 1000ghash and i can also login with ssh..
can i restart the webserver or something to reset??

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5517

that worked for me.

But an other thing, when I let me ccp run in that advanced mode or in ultra turbo cgminer isnt stable and vanishs after some time. Some idea?

[salve80]

hi i recived today two Coincraft Desk but one of them i cant login the web interface because no site is found.. but the device shows me mining with 1000ghash and i can also login with ssh..
can i restart the webserver or something to reset??

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5517

that worked for me.

But an other thing, when I let me ccp run in that advanced mode or in ultra turbo cgminer isnt stable and vanishs after some time. Some idea?

i opend it but with 5 cards i cant see the sd-slot on the rasperi pi
do i need to remove the PSU or what?

[sawsawsaw]

How about this:

I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)

How you would call that?!

And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:

He told me some interessting things:

1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)

2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)

3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)

4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.

My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..

Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money.  Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.

Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.

If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.

They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....

Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...

[swissmining]

How about this:

I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)

How you would call that?!

And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:

He told me some interessting things:

1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)

2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)

3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)

4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.

My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..

Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money.  Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.

Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.

If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.

They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....

Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...

hey sawsawsaw

You might be right that this is the tactic of Bitmine AG, but i doubt they'll get through with this. My biggest concern is that they'll be insolvent at some point (the mentioned blockchain adress doesn't mean anything since we don't know anything about ther liabilities). If that happens, no lawsuit will help anyone. As soon as they're bankrupt, everybody (no matter where you live) can participate in the bankruptcy procedure. Therefore you need file your claim within 30 days. No lawyer needed. There are forms given by the swiss authoroties to file the claim. If they won't be bankrupt any time soon, you can enforce your rights with much less effort (and costs) then you described. Of course the entire procedure won't be free. But I rather spend USD 1'000 to get my money back than just accepting the situation without getting refunded at all.

To your questions:

1. correct

2. correct

3. correct. A lawyer in Switzerland charges between CHF 200 - 300 per hour (180 - 270 USD/h)

4. incorrect.
---
Swiss Civil Procedure Code:
Chapter 1: Procedural Costs
Art. 95 Definitions
1
 The procedural costs include:
a. the court costs;
b. the party costs.
2
 The court costs include:
a. the fee for the conciliation proceedings;
b. the fee for the decision (judgment fee);
c. the costs of taking evidence;
d. the costs of translation;
e. the costs of representation for a child (Art. 299 and 300).
3
 The party costs include:
a. the reimbursement of necessary outlays;
b. the costs for professional representation;
c. in justified cases: reasonable com
 
Art. 106 General principles of allocation
1
 The costs are charged to the unsuccessful party. If an action is not admitted by the
court or if it is withdrawn, the plaintiff is deemed to be the unsuccessful party; in
case of acceptance of the claim it is the defendant.
2
 If no party entirely is successful, the costs are allocated in accordance with the
outcome of the case.


---
The only exception is, that you wont get party costs during the conciliation proceedings. The fee for the conciliation proceedings are charged to the unsuccessful party though. If you have calculatet the refund request period correct, the case is waterproof. If the unsuccessful party won't go bankrupt during the proceedings, they have to cover these costs.


There are no classactions in switzerland. But there is a thing called "Joinder of parties and joinder of actions":

Art. 15 Abs. 2: If two or more actions that are factual connected are raised against one and the
same defendant, each court that has jurisdiction over any one of the actions has
jurisdiction over all of them.

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

Right now I don't have the time and I don't want to throw good money after bad invested money. But

- I truly hate Bitmine and the bad people involved (Zefir excluded) from the bottom of my heart.
- I hate to see how they abuse swiss business practices to trap customers.
- I somehow have a sense of justice
- I really like the law stuff

[RealMalatesta]

How about this:

I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)

How you would call that?!

And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:

He told me some interessting things:

1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)

2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)

3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)

4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.

My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..

Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money.  Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.

Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.

If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.

They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....

Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...

hey sawsawsaw

You might be right that this is the tactic of Bitmine AG, but i doubt they'll get through with this. My biggest concern is that they'll be insolvent at some point (the mentioned blockchain adress doesn't mean anything since we don't know anything about ther liabilities). If that happens, no lawsuit will help anyone. As soon as they're bankrupt, everybody (no matter where you live) can participate in the bankruptcy procedure. Therefore you need file your claim within 30 days. No lawyer needed. There are forms given by the swiss authoroties to file the claim. If they won't be bankrupt any time soon, you can enforce your rights with much less effort (and costs) then you described. Of course the entire procedure won't be free. But I rather spend USD 1'000 to get my money back than just accepting the situation without getting refunded at all.

To your questions:

1. correct

2. correct

3. correct. A lawyer in Switzerland charges between CHF 200 - 300 per hour (180 - 270 USD/h)

4. incorrect.
---
Swiss Civil Procedure Code:
Chapter 1: Procedural Costs
Art. 95 Definitions
1
 The procedural costs include:
a. the court costs;
b. the party costs.
2
 The court costs include:
a. the fee for the conciliation proceedings;
b. the fee for the decision (judgment fee);
c. the costs of taking evidence;
d. the costs of translation;
e. the costs of representation for a child (Art. 299 and 300).
3
 The party costs include:
a. the reimbursement of necessary outlays;
b. the costs for professional representation;
c. in justified cases: reasonable com
 
Art. 106 General principles of allocation
1
 The costs are charged to the unsuccessful party. If an action is not admitted by the
court or if it is withdrawn, the plaintiff is deemed to be the unsuccessful party; in
case of acceptance of the claim it is the defendant.
2
 If no party entirely is successful, the costs are allocated in accordance with the
outcome of the case.


---
The only exception is, that you wont get party costs during the conciliation proceedings. The fee for the conciliation proceedings are charged to the unsuccessful party though. If you have calculatet the refund request period correct, the case is waterproof. If the unsuccessful party won't go bankrupt during the proceedings, they have to cover these costs.


There are no classactions in switzerland. But there is a thing called "Joinder of parties and joinder of actions":

Art. 15 Abs. 2: If two or more actions that are factual connected are raised against one and the
same defendant, each court that has jurisdiction over any one of the actions has
jurisdiction over all of them.

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

Right now I don't have the time and I don't want to throw good money after bad invested money. But

- I truly hate Bitmine and the bad people involved (Zefir excluded) from the bottom of my heart.
- I hate to see how they abuse swiss business practices to trap customers.
- I somehow have a sense of justice
- I really like the law stuff

Have you ever asked for a "Betreibungsauszug"? I wonder how many claims have already been filed. This would give a pretty good base for guessing if they will pay your costs or be bankrupt before...

[peakpeng]

How about this:

I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)

How you would call that?!

And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:

He told me some interessting things:

1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)

2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)

3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)

4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.

My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..

Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money.  Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.

Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.

If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.

They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....

Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...

hey sawsawsaw

You might be right that this is the tactic of Bitmine AG, but i doubt they'll get through with this. My biggest concern is that they'll be insolvent at some point (the mentioned blockchain adress doesn't mean anything since we don't know anything about ther liabilities). If that happens, no lawsuit will help anyone. As soon as they're bankrupt, everybody (no matter where you live) can participate in the bankruptcy procedure. Therefore you need file your claim within 30 days. No lawyer needed. There are forms given by the swiss authoroties to file the claim. If they won't be bankrupt any time soon, you can enforce your rights with much less effort (and costs) then you described. Of course the entire procedure won't be free. But I rather spend USD 1'000 to get my money back than just accepting the situation without getting refunded at all.

To your questions:

1. correct

2. correct

3. correct. A lawyer in Switzerland charges between CHF 200 - 300 per hour (180 - 270 USD/h)

4. incorrect.
---
Swiss Civil Procedure Code:
Chapter 1: Procedural Costs
Art. 95 Definitions
1
 The procedural costs include:
a. the court costs;
b. the party costs.
2
 The court costs include:
a. the fee for the conciliation proceedings;
b. the fee for the decision (judgment fee);
c. the costs of taking evidence;
d. the costs of translation;
e. the costs of representation for a child (Art. 299 and 300).
3
 The party costs include:
a. the reimbursement of necessary outlays;
b. the costs for professional representation;
c. in justified cases: reasonable com
 
Art. 106 General principles of allocation
1
 The costs are charged to the unsuccessful party. If an action is not admitted by the
court or if it is withdrawn, the plaintiff is deemed to be the unsuccessful party; in
case of acceptance of the claim it is the defendant.
2
 If no party entirely is successful, the costs are allocated in accordance with the
outcome of the case.


---
The only exception is, that you wont get party costs during the conciliation proceedings. The fee for the conciliation proceedings are charged to the unsuccessful party though. If you have calculatet the refund request period correct, the case is waterproof. If the unsuccessful party won't go bankrupt during the proceedings, they have to cover these costs.


There are no classactions in switzerland. But there is a thing called "Joinder of parties and joinder of actions":

Art. 15 Abs. 2: If two or more actions that are factual connected are raised against one and the
same defendant, each court that has jurisdiction over any one of the actions has
jurisdiction over all of them.

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

Right now I don't have the time and I don't want to throw good money after bad invested money. But

- I truly hate Bitmine and the bad people involved (Zefir excluded) from the bottom of my heart.
- I hate to see how they abuse swiss business practices to trap customers.
- I somehow have a sense of justice
- I really like the law stuff

join

[tracyhh]

How about this:

I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)

How you would call that?!

And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:

He told me some interessting things:

1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)

2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)

3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)

4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.

My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..

Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money.  Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.

Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.

If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.

They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....

Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...

hey sawsawsaw

You might be right that this is the tactic of Bitmine AG, but i doubt they'll get through with this. My biggest concern is that they'll be insolvent at some point (the mentioned blockchain adress doesn't mean anything since we don't know anything about ther liabilities). If that happens, no lawsuit will help anyone. As soon as they're bankrupt, everybody (no matter where you live) can participate in the bankruptcy procedure. Therefore you need file your claim within 30 days. No lawyer needed. There are forms given by the swiss authoroties to file the claim. If they won't be bankrupt any time soon, you can enforce your rights with much less effort (and costs) then you described. Of course the entire procedure won't be free. But I rather spend USD 1'000 to get my money back than just accepting the situation without getting refunded at all.

To your questions:

1. correct

2. correct

3. correct. A lawyer in Switzerland charges between CHF 200 - 300 per hour (180 - 270 USD/h)

4. incorrect.
---
Swiss Civil Procedure Code:
Chapter 1: Procedural Costs
Art. 95 Definitions
1
 The procedural costs include:
a. the court costs;
b. the party costs.
2
 The court costs include:
a. the fee for the conciliation proceedings;
b. the fee for the decision (judgment fee);
c. the costs of taking evidence;
d. the costs of translation;
e. the costs of representation for a child (Art. 299 and 300).
3
 The party costs include:
a. the reimbursement of necessary outlays;
b. the costs for professional representation;
c. in justified cases: reasonable com
 
Art. 106 General principles of allocation
1
 The costs are charged to the unsuccessful party. If an action is not admitted by the
court or if it is withdrawn, the plaintiff is deemed to be the unsuccessful party; in
case of acceptance of the claim it is the defendant.
2
 If no party entirely is successful, the costs are allocated in accordance with the
outcome of the case.


---
The only exception is, that you wont get party costs during the conciliation proceedings. The fee for the conciliation proceedings are charged to the unsuccessful party though. If you have calculatet the refund request period correct, the case is waterproof. If the unsuccessful party won't go bankrupt during the proceedings, they have to cover these costs.


There are no classactions in switzerland. But there is a thing called "Joinder of parties and joinder of actions":

Art. 15 Abs. 2: If two or more actions that are factual connected are raised against one and the
same defendant, each court that has jurisdiction over any one of the actions has
jurisdiction over all of them.

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

Right now I don't have the time and I don't want to throw good money after bad invested money. But

- I truly hate Bitmine and the bad people involved (Zefir excluded) from the bottom of my heart.
- I hate to see how they abuse swiss business practices to trap customers.
- I somehow have a sense of justice
- I really like the law stuff

join

join +1

[spiccioli]

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

You're already not alone for that joinder of cause

Count me in for at least one unit for which refund is long due.

For the other one, I need to wait for tomorrow (if we consider February 2014 as a five weeks month) or May 10th if we consider it as a four weeks month .

spiccioli

[jseppeli]

If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.

If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.

Why am I doing this?

You're already not alone for that joinder of cause

Count me in for at least one unit for which refund is long due.

For the other one, I need to wait for tomorrow (if we consider February 2014 as a five weeks month) or May 10th if we consider it as a four weeks month .

spiccioli

If you had delivery last week february then you have to wait until May 10th