[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated]

[Minor Miner]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.
Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

In order to have this 1-2PH farm within Q2 we would need to use the 55nm chips @ 1.9GH/s.

Given your job Kleeck, what is the cost of setting up a 3,000 KW, running baseloaded power (24/7), data center by June?   It certainly is not going to fit in the "garage" building that is headquarters.

[mainline]

...
At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.
...

Theoretically.  But you're dealing with Ken.

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/q/image/1364/60/1364609851997.png

[kleeck]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.
Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

In order to have this 1-2PH farm within Q2 we would need to use the 55nm chips @ 1.9GH/s.

Given your job Kleeck, what is the cost of setting up a 3,000 KW, running baseloaded power (24/7), data center by June?   It certainly is not going to fit in the "garage" building that is headquarters.

I'm unsure of cost, as that's not my side of the responsibility, but no, it absolutely will not fit in a garage. When I say DC, I mean DC and a garage does not qualify. Ken is not going to build this DC, from the ground up, by June. Let's not be ridiculous. There are many, many enterprise-grade DCs that will rent you rack space and power. I'd wager that Ken is already in talks with a couple.

Edit: To lend a little more insight into why a Mining DC isn't that big of a deal I'll share this. One of our Computer Scientist's used to work for a major university. They rented rack space for some massive GPU farm that did all manner of medical science computations from the same DC we use. The machines ran 24/7 with multiple GPUs per server crunching away relentlessly and the DC didn't bat an eye at their power/cooling requirements. This type of thing has been going on since before Bitcoin.

[Minor Miner]

So what would your guess be on taking that kind of baseload draw in a professional data center?   That is not the typical customer for them (little to no bandwidth and baseload power/heat instead of peaking).
At some point the fee per month could make data center mining unprofitable if you are paying $2300 per rack per month and the network gets so large that the density you can fit in that rack is not enough TH/s.

[minerpart]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.

A quick search found this:

location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month

Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficult as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

http://www.cityfeet.com/cont/ForLease/LN18343927/1800-Reynolds-Avenue-Kansas-City-MO-64120

Edit - it even has 120 parking spaces and a 15 Ton bridge crane. What more could you need?

[Minor Miner]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.
A quick search found this:
location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month
Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficulty as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

You are missing something.  You need to get the power from the transformer into panels.  Then from the panels you need to distribute the power to each rack.  Sounds simple correct?   You need a lot of equipment between the transformer and the plug above each rack.  This is not at lowes or home depot.   You also need to design/order/install a raised floor system for the cooling, and an HVAC system that can cool 2,000 kw of heat.   Oh, and before you do this, all the plans have to be engineered and then approved by your local city (none of the contractors that can do this will work without the proper engineering and permitting and most of the good contractors that can do the HVAC are union).   That seems like a good building to start with though.  I would be surprised if the owner was up for all the alterations you are planning to make to it though, you should ask him first.

EDIT:  ooops, just read the link.   It is 400,000 sq ft building that was abandoned by ball corp.   You could not take 11,000 sq ft of it and take 3MW of the power. 

[minerpart]

err yeah I guessed you need to do some electrical installation inside.

So now that your this  last 'impossibility' has been blown apart your next objection is that local city won't let you do some installations to allow your business to operate??

Just complete nonsense.

Ken has already stated our power costs, that to me says he has a location and has the power supply he needs. It's as difficult as paying a visit to a real estate agents.

[kleeck]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.
A quick search found this:
location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month
Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficulty as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

You are missing something.  You need to get the power from the transformer into panels.  Then from the panels you need to distribute the power to each rack.  Sounds simple correct?   You need a lot of equipment between the transformer and the plug above each rack.  This is not at lowes or home depot.   You also need to design/order/install a raised floor system for the cooling, and an HVAC system that can cool 2,000 kw of heat.   Oh, and before you do this, all the plans have to be engineered and then approved by your local city (none of the contractors that can do this will work without the proper engineering and permitting and most of the good contractors that can do the HVAC are union).   That seems like a good building to start with though.  I would be surprised if the owner was up for all the alterations you are planning to make to it though, you should ask him first.

I would venture a guess that there is a data center that can handle what ActM needs inside a reasonable driving distance from Ken. You seem to keep jumping to the conclusion that what ActM needs is so out of the ordinary that there isn't an outfit that can take them on. I'd say worse case scenario is that Ken works with multiple centers, spreading out the farm.

[MilkyWayMasta]

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

Let's say we get 1 PH out of 100 PH (1%), we would be receiving 36 of the 3600 BTC mined a day. In a month that would be 1080 BTC. Let's say half goes to dividends, (540 BTC / 10,000,000 shares) = 0.000054 BTC per share a month. How much is that worth?

[MrTeal]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

I'm currently employed by a company who has multiple data centers around the world, one of which I am in charge of maintaining. I am fully aware of the logistics involved in getting a data center setup and it is far from the biggest obstacle here.

I do agree that the ramp-up time will be a significant factor, but to say that the possibility is "almost non-existent" is exactly what you claimed to not be, dismissive. Ken knows how to do calculations and there are plenty of DCs that would love to take on the recurring revenue that an operation like this would bring in. This is not some magical and mysterious process. It has been done before ActM and will be done after.

It's hard to look at the example of this "100gh/s" mine ramping up to 500gh/s because there are far too many variables involved in any one company's ramp up time. They may have hangups that ActM does not and ActM may have some that they did not. The only thing we can really look at is our available resources and timelines, which only Ken has on hand. He has been very tight lipped about the mining operation until now so I believe he has enough data available to put forth a reasonable timeline.

The chips are not even scheduled to be available until Q2. I don't think it's dismissive at all to say the chance of having 1PH/s online in Q2 is almost non-existent. Even if the chips arrive at the very start of Q2, you're talking about doing chip bringup, board bringup, volume production and installation in the span of a couple months. Like I said, I'd be surprised if they could get a 1PH/s mine done by the end of Q2 if the chips were just rolling off the line now. An end of Q2 timeline for having that hashing power online given the information Ken has let out on chip timelines is fantastical.

I'm unsure of cost, as that's not my side of the responsibility, but no, it absolutely will not fit in a garage. When I say DC, I mean DC and a garage does not qualify. Ken is not going to build this DC, from the ground up, by June. Let's not be ridiculous. There are many, many enterprise-grade DCs that will rent you rack space and power. I'd wager that Ken is already in talks with a couple.

Edit: To lend a little more insight into why a Mining DC isn't that big of a deal I'll share this. One of our Computer Scientist's used to work for a major university. They rented rack space for some massive GPU farm that did all manner of medical science computations from the same DC we use. The machines ran 24/7 with multiple GPUs per server crunching away relentlessly and the DC didn't bat an eye at their power/cooling requirements. This type of thing has been going on since before Bitcoin.

Out of curiosity, what is the power budget for the DC you manage, and would you be able to add 2MW of hardware and say 200 racks (at 10kW per rack) without bumping out existing clients?

[minerpart]

the information Ken has let out on chip timelines is fantastical.

The only fantastical statements are being made by you right now. You ignored the complete annihilation of your last piece of FUD but now you continue.

Ignored.

[JimmyJazz]

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

Let's say we get 1 PH out of 100 PH (1%), we would be receiving 36 of the 3600 BTC mined a day. In a month that would be 1080 BTC. Let's say half goes to dividends, (540 BTC / 10,000,000 shares) = 0.000054 BTC per share a month. How much is that worth?

Half would be 504btc a month.

Weekly dividend of 0.0000126
Share price valuation of 0.002205
from how I do my shizz.

[MrTeal]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.
A quick search found this:
location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month
Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficulty as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

You are missing something.  You need to get the power from the transformer into panels.  Then from the panels you need to distribute the power to each rack.  Sounds simple correct?   You need a lot of equipment between the transformer and the plug above each rack.  This is not at lowes or home depot.   You also need to design/order/install a raised floor system for the cooling, and an HVAC system that can cool 2,000 kw of heat.   Oh, and before you do this, all the plans have to be engineered and then approved by your local city (none of the contractors that can do this will work without the proper engineering and permitting and most of the good contractors that can do the HVAC are union).   That seems like a good building to start with though.  I would be surprised if the owner was up for all the alterations you are planning to make to it though, you should ask him first.

I would venture a guess that there is a data center that can handle what ActM needs inside a reasonable driving distance from Ken. You seem to keep jumping to the conclusion that what ActM needs is so out of the ordinary that there isn't an outfit that can take them on. I'd say worse case scenario is that Ken works with multiple centers, spreading out the farm.

How many of those datacenters will sell power at 1.7c/kWh? I'm sure he'd be able to find room for all the equipment needed in different DCs around his area, but I'm guessing he's going to be locating it in some place like Douglas County. There's not too many places with sub-2c/kWh rates even for industrial clients.

[Minor Miner]

err yeah I guessed you need to do some electrical installation inside.
So now that your this  last 'impossibility' has been blown apart your next objection is that local city won't let you do some installations to allow your business to operate??
Just complete nonsense.

Do not attack me.  Does that make you feel tough?  That is a real weakness.
I am asking a very specific question.   There is going to be 2PH/s deployed in 5 months.   How much will it cost to run it.   You are being dismissive that this is a problem. 
Kleeck has some expertise but does not seem to know cost and whether the scale would be possible at one datacenter.
My point (that you seemed to have missed) is, knowing the cost per GH/s of housing these miners is important.   Why?
Because then we could see if it was viable or not.  You seem like an intelligent person, so you must understand that if you have many variables in an equation, each one that can become as close to a known as possible reduces the range of answers.
I too, have some expertise in things, and I will tell you that by June, you cannot convert a building to do this.  Not even with NSA type money.  There are certain time constraints that cannot be overcome.
So, it would be a data center.   Not sure how much the rack would cost because I pay for a lot of bandwidth so having dedicated racks does not mean the cost is not blending into the bandwidth fee.
So, what if the fee for the rack space is $x and the amount of TH/s in the Rack is y (this is likely solvable with very little additional info based on power) and the network size in june is between a and b?  Then you could actually calculate if you could house (and make money) the miners in the dedicated DC space for the full TWO year contract they will make you sign.
So, information like that seems stupid to you?   I expect you bought shares on the IPO and in the aftermarket then.

[kleeck]

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

I'm currently employed by a company who has multiple data centers around the world, one of which I am in charge of maintaining. I am fully aware of the logistics involved in getting a data center setup and it is far from the biggest obstacle here.

I do agree that the ramp-up time will be a significant factor, but to say that the possibility is "almost non-existent" is exactly what you claimed to not be, dismissive. Ken knows how to do calculations and there are plenty of DCs that would love to take on the recurring revenue that an operation like this would bring in. This is not some magical and mysterious process. It has been done before ActM and will be done after.

It's hard to look at the example of this "100gh/s" mine ramping up to 500gh/s because there are far too many variables involved in any one company's ramp up time. They may have hangups that ActM does not and ActM may have some that they did not. The only thing we can really look at is our available resources and timelines, which only Ken has on hand. He has been very tight lipped about the mining operation until now so I believe he has enough data available to put forth a reasonable timeline.

The chips are not even scheduled to be available until Q2. I don't think it's dismissive at all to say the chance of having 1PH/s online in Q2 is almost non-existent. Even if the chips arrive at the very start of Q2, you're talking about doing chip bringup, board bringup, volume production and installation in the span of a couple months. Like I said, I'd be surprised if they could get a 1PH/s mine done by the end of Q2 if the chips were just rolling off the line now. An end of Q2 timeline for having that hashing power online given the information Ken has let out on chip timelines is fantastical.

I'm unsure of cost, as that's not my side of the responsibility, but no, it absolutely will not fit in a garage. When I say DC, I mean DC and a garage does not qualify. Ken is not going to build this DC, from the ground up, by June. Let's not be ridiculous. There are many, many enterprise-grade DCs that will rent you rack space and power. I'd wager that Ken is already in talks with a couple.

Edit: To lend a little more insight into why a Mining DC isn't that big of a deal I'll share this. One of our Computer Scientist's used to work for a major university. They rented rack space for some massive GPU farm that did all manner of medical science computations from the same DC we use. The machines ran 24/7 with multiple GPUs per server crunching away relentlessly and the DC didn't bat an eye at their power/cooling requirements. This type of thing has been going on since before Bitcoin.

Out of curiosity, what is the power budget for the DC you manage, and would you be able to add 2MW of hardware and say 200 racks (at 10kW per rack) without bumping out existing clients?

The type of Data Center I use and am responsible for is not a rental space. It is for my company, exclusively. We do use one about 40 miles away that does have rackspace for rent that could absolutely absorb 2MW (they're currently expanding into a one million square foot renovation). Off the top of my head the one "room" (it's more like a hallway with hallways off of it) we have at the commercial space holds ten rows with 9 racks per row so that's 90 racks in one "room" if you're using both sides of the area.

[wasubii]

err yeah I guessed you need to do some electrical installation inside.

So now that your this  last 'impossibility' has been blown apart your next objection is that local city won't let you do some installations to allow your business to operate??

Just complete nonsense.

Ken has already stated our power costs, that to me says he has a location and has the power supply he needs. It's as difficult as paying a visit to a real estate agents.

Please show us the quote where Ken says definitively what our power costs are going to be. I think you'll find another 'we have shipped products' type statement which is left wide open for him to come back later and say 'Hey, i didnt say those were our actual power costs, YOU guys just read it that way - your fault not mine...."


EDIT:

decided to find it for you...

1.9GH/s and 2.5W, estimated end of profitable hashing:
0.20 $/kWh - July
0.15 $/kWh - August
0.10 $/kWh - September
One month extra if BTC at $2k. From selling point, it can make wide customer base for future 28nm but needs high volume, no preorders, sell at costs, deliver on time.

How about 0.017 $/kWh 

[MrTeal]

the information Ken has let out on chip timelines is fantastical.

The only fantastical statements are being made by you right now. You ignored the complete annihilation of your last piece of FUD but now you continue.

Ignored.

Annihilation? By you posting a link to a building with a high power feed?

kleeck is giving reasoned arguments for the possibility for getting a large scale mine set up. I disagree obviously and think there's no chance that AMC is going to be able to do so, but I'm willing to debate it.

Your posting a link to an abandoned industrial site with on-site transformers is hardly the end of discussion you seem to think it is.

[kleeck]

the information Ken has let out on chip timelines is fantastical.

The only fantastical statements are being made by you right now. You ignored the complete annihilation of your last piece of FUD but now you continue.

Ignored.

Annihilation? By you posting a link to a building with a high power feed?

kleeck is giving reasoned arguments for the possibility for getting a large scale mine set up. I disagree obviously and think there's no chance that AMC is going to be able to do so, but I'm willing to debate it.

Your posting a link to an abandoned industrial site with on-site transformers is hardly the end of discussion you seem to think it is.

Remember, my position is not that we will absolutely have 1-2PH up and mining within Q2, but rather that there are data centers in operation right now that handle this type of operation. This all started with my question to Drawingthesun re: his estimated share price in the coming months.

[minerpart]

So now that your this  last 'impossibility' has been blown apart your next objection is that local city won't let you do some installations to allow your business to operate??
Just complete nonsense.

Do not attack me.  Does that make you feel tough?  That is a real weakness.

I didn't attack you I attacked your point, there is no personal attack in my post. There is a big difference, so don't take my post personally and don't attack me telling me I am 'weak' whatever that is supposed to mean.

I stand by my post - the local city denying you permission to carry out an electrical installation to operate your business is complete nonsense. Unless you live in Soviet Russia or North Korea now?

[Minor Miner]

there is no power in the USA that is 1.7 cents.   When you buy a lot of power there are capacity charges, transmission charges and energy charges (there is other bs too but this is the bulk of it).   Capacity charges are based on the MOST electricity you used in the last 12-18 months (depending on your area) and it pays for the capital equipment of the power generator (hydro/nuclear have high capacity charges and low energy charges but it is a blend of all the plants that make up the power in that region), transmission is based on the utilities capital cost and is slightly lower when you take 460, energy is simply the variable cost of the electricity.
Most people are quoting the energy cost when they are throwing out these power numbers.   That is like saying the cost of driving your cab is only the gas you put in.