Official Thread: AMT

[loshia]

Unless you prefer eu based company technobit I can assure all of you that I am having eight chip coincraft board in hand hashing like I beast 240-250 gh

And pulling around 3W/GH I believe, albeit overclocked, but without even accounting for the PSU inefficiency.
Based on the same chip, AMT are still claiming 0.5-0.75 W/GH at the wall, and thats up from their previous ludicrous claim of 0.25-0.5W/GH.

To quote AMTs favorite shill:

Yes, I do believe the  unit will produce up to 1.2THs, running around 600Watts.

Dirty lie dude it is same chip. If you wanna efficient miner go for bitfury miner or under lock coincraft. If they do something at all it will be a trade of between power and hashing rate.
The math is very simple dude
1. Chip supplier gives you a figure of power at one volt or whatever chip power is
2. The above figure is taken from simulations not real chips and differs with let say 10 % from reality. When chip is Overclocked the difference is quite big
3. Add at least 10% for cd/cd 12v to 1 and on top 15at least psu loss
There is one slight chance for them to meet their figures if they putt wise as much chips as planned and under clock them. It is too late to do the math right know but they will roughly loose 60 chips costing 100 used each to make it happen and so on and on
Again it will be not their fault the chip needs power that is all
And they are aware of the fact they speak nonces unless instead of 220/120 v in your plugs you happen to have ONE VOLT dc  

It is likely the 1.2 THs units will be around 1.1 THs instead of the published.

Cointerra TerraMiner IV was advertised at 2 THs and only delivered like 1.8 THs.   A 10% drop from original estimates.  

This of course depends if the manufacturer fixes the design to add more chips.  Cointerra has much larger chips so it is unable to adjust the design,  however bitmine and AMT have a lot of smaller chips, so if they add 10% more, they can hit their targets.

Dude,

1.2THs, running around 600Watts.


If the quoted 600Wats are at the wall (220V better scenario) I can make 10 BTC bet that they  will not make it!!! never!
I am talking about mass shipped units. If they put 300 chips (instead of 40-50) undervolted and underclocked there is a slight chance this to happen. But they will not do it on production units for sure because this costs a lot of money!

Just find a reputable third party person like john to hold our coins

Who has the guts to earn some quick money Anyone?

The best dreamed scenario will be arround 1.2 KW at the wall for 1.2T unit PERIOD!!!!!!!!

[FrictionlessCoin]

Unless you prefer eu based company technobit I can assure all of you that I am having eight chip coincraft board in hand hashing like I beast 240-250 gh

And pulling around 3W/GH I believe, albeit overclocked, but without even accounting for the PSU inefficiency.
Based on the same chip, AMT are still claiming 0.5-0.75 W/GH at the wall, and thats up from their previous ludicrous claim of 0.25-0.5W/GH.

To quote AMTs favorite shill:

Yes, I do believe the  unit will produce up to 1.2THs, running around 600Watts.

Dirty lie dude it is same chip. If you wanna efficient miner go for bitfury miner or under lock coincraft. If they do something at all it will be a trade of between power and hashing rate.
The math is very simple dude
1. Chip supplier gives you a figure of power at one volt or whatever chip power is
2. The above figure is taken from simulations not real chips and differs with let say 10 % from reality. When chip is Overclocked the difference is quite big
3. Add at least 10% for cd/cd 12v to 1 and on top 15at least psu loss
There is one slight chance for them to meet their figures if they putt wise as much chips as planned and under clock them. It is too late to do the math right know but they will roughly loose 60 chips costing 100 used each to make it happen and so on and on
Again it will be not their fault the chip needs power that is all
And they are aware of the fact they speak nonces unless instead of 220/120 v in your plugs you happen to have ONE VOLT dc  

It is likely the 1.2 THs units will be around 1.1 THs instead of the published.

Cointerra TerraMiner IV was advertised at 2 THs and only delivered like 1.8 THs.   A 10% drop from original estimates.  

This of course depends if the manufacturer fixes the design to add more chips.  Cointerra has much larger chips so it is unable to adjust the design,  however bitmine and AMT have a lot of smaller chips, so if they add 10% more, they can hit their targets.

Dude,

1.2THs, running around 600Watts.


If the quoted 600Wats are at the wall (220V better scenario) I can make 10 BTC bet that they  will not make it!!! never!
I am talking about mass shipped units. If they put 300 chips (instead of 40-50) undervolted and underclocked there is a slight chance this to happen. But they will not do it on production units for sure because this costs a lot of money!

Just find a reputable third party person like john to hold our coins

Who has the guts to earn some quick money Anyone?

The best dreamed scenario will be arround 1.2 KW at the wall for 1.2T unit PERIOD!!!!!!!!

At 20GHs per chip,   they will need 60 chips.  So if they claim .6 W per GHs they are talking around 720 watts.

[loshia]

Unless you prefer eu based company technobit I can assure all of you that I am having eight chip coincraft board in hand hashing like I beast 240-250 gh

And pulling around 3W/GH I believe, albeit overclocked, but without even accounting for the PSU inefficiency.
Based on the same chip, AMT are still claiming 0.5-0.75 W/GH at the wall, and thats up from their previous ludicrous claim of 0.25-0.5W/GH.

To quote AMTs favorite shill:

Yes, I do believe the  unit will produce up to 1.2THs, running around 600Watts.

Dirty lie dude it is same chip. If you wanna efficient miner go for bitfury miner or under lock coincraft. If they do something at all it will be a trade of between power and hashing rate.
The math is very simple dude
1. Chip supplier gives you a figure of power at one volt or whatever chip power is
2. The above figure is taken from simulations not real chips and differs with let say 10 % from reality. When chip is Overclocked the difference is quite big
3. Add at least 10% for cd/cd 12v to 1 and on top 15at least psu loss
There is one slight chance for them to meet their figures if they putt wise as much chips as planned and under clock them. It is too late to do the math right know but they will roughly loose 60 chips costing 100 used each to make it happen and so on and on
Again it will be not their fault the chip needs power that is all
And they are aware of the fact they speak nonces unless instead of 220/120 v in your plugs you happen to have ONE VOLT dc  

It is likely the 1.2 THs units will be around 1.1 THs instead of the published.

Cointerra TerraMiner IV was advertised at 2 THs and only delivered like 1.8 THs.   A 10% drop from original estimates.  

This of course depends if the manufacturer fixes the design to add more chips.  Cointerra has much larger chips so it is unable to adjust the design,  however bitmine and AMT have a lot of smaller chips, so if they add 10% more, they can hit their targets.

Dude,

1.2THs, running around 600Watts.


If the quoted 600Wats are at the wall (220V better scenario) I can make 10 BTC bet that they  will not make it!!! never!
I am talking about mass shipped units. If they put 300 chips (instead of 40-50) undervolted and underclocked there is a slight chance this to happen. But they will not do it on production units for sure because this costs a lot of money!

Just find a reputable third party person like john to hold our coins

Who has the guts to earn some quick money Anyone?

The best dreamed scenario will be arround 1.2 KW at the wall for 1.2T unit PERIOD!!!!!!!!

At 20GHs per chip,   they will need 60 chips.  So if they claim .6 W per GHs they are talking around 720 watts.

So 20 chips on top means around 1500 USD i am wandering how many chips will they need  600Watts

Any way....I am still taking bets

Some info:

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863
Power usage of 0.35 W/GH in low power, 0.6 W/GH in nominal and 1 W/GH in Turbo mode
Supply voltage of 0.65V in low power, 0.765 V in nominal and 0.85 V in Turbo mode

Please note that while we took the highest possible care in doing accurate and conservative simulations, the real performances of the final product could vary by a +/- 20%

You know that  0.6 W/GH is at 0.765 V in nominal voltage right. Best case scenario  0.6w*1.15 (PSU loss 220v to 12V) *1.1 (DC/DC loss from 12V to .765 V i ) * 60 chips as you suggest * 20 GH each EQUALS TO 910 WATS  
And the above calculation does not take into account PCB losses at all. Then tell me about GOLD PSU, SUPER efficient dc/dc converters and so on
The beauty of it with each added chip they "increase the power efficiency" decreasing the performance of ALL chips
They can not do it or they can but they will be not able to cover their costs because of additional chips added and more complex design. Which means guess what

[grumpybearsgirl]

We would like our money back for Order #1196, as I've said many times before and through countless emails and phone calls.

Grumpysbeargirl: What was their response to you on the phone?

Please share details with us, the more the better.

I'm sure everyone wants to see you get your moneyback and how AMT resolves this situation.

Thanks

On the phone, we talked with Jim. He kept trying to convince us that the machines were coming and that bitcoin was going to go up. He even likened our 'investment' to that of investing in a [IRA] CD. We kept pushing for the refund anyway and he said he didn't think it would happen but he would pass that along.

He kept asking why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up but the fact is we just made a stupid move by sending them the money. We just want it back.

As I've said before, we don't even want the hardware shipped out to us. We just want our money back.

We've tried to keep optimistic about this and like I said, polite, but so far, no refund.

[grumpybearsgirl]

Order #1196 isn't even due for delivery for another week... Asking for a refund before it is even due to be shipped, on a pre-order, is not one of those "situations", few would honor for a refund.

"asking for weeks"... That order is only a few weeks old!

"with our mortgage at risk"... What! That is a poor decision of yourself, if that is your action, buying a pre-order with the HOPE that it will make you money in time to pay a mortgage. You need personal priority adjustment. If you HAD issues with your mortgage, they existed before you made the bad choice to buy a miner. A miner, I might add, that has a break-even (at best), within two months after owning it. If your mortgage is at risk, having gains in the third month wouldn't help much.

But I digress... Don't blame others for your poor decisions, and then attempt to hold them accountable for your poor decisions. They offered us miners, we accepted the terms, and now we are getting our miners.

If you want "off the shelf" equipment, that choice has always been there. Now these will be "on the shelf", and then you can complain how they will not make you rich, and want refunds as bitcoins falls again, or as it rises, so you can get your coins back to trade for more money. That is why all these places NEED irreversible transactions. Because buyers continually try to defraud these places. Again, that was a risk you agreed to, once you hit that SEND or submit button, or made that wire-transfer.

The PR guy is doing a great job. However, he needs to stop replying to obvious trolls, who are demanding answers to stupid questions that don't pertain to him. We don't need you (the troll) speaking for us, we have our own mouths, and have gotten the answers we need. (Even if they are not the answers we want to hear.)

I offered to buy peoples orders directly. No-one took me up on the offer. They had a chance for an instant refund, and passed. So, they must not be too anxious for a refund.

Also, last time I checked, most laws state... "Within 30 days of expected delivery." That is for existing items, where delivery was implicitly stated as a "sure thing". Not for "pre-orders", where it is implicitly accepted that any statement of delivery is an "estimate of expected delivery", thus the term "PRE" before the word "ORDER".

They are not refusing refunds. They are refusing unreasonable requests for refunds, without some kind of valid reason. They have that right, as you have chosen to "give them" money to use, as an "advance", on the creation of an "order" to be "filled in a reasonable time". (Unfortunately, it is not YOU who determines what is "reasonable", it is the LAW. Which, I believe, in most countries, is 30 days beyond expected delivery. That is also in paypal's agreement, and ebay's agreement, and UPS's agreement, and FedEx's agreement, and even your CC's agreement. Which I believe CC's extend to 60 and 90, in some instances, but LAW of consumer-protection rules over most of those aforementioned contracts.)

It's been more than a few weeks, thank you lol. Try over 1 month. The point is, we don't want the hardware. Just our money back. And instead of acting like an irrate customer and flaming AMT, we have been nothing but nice about it.

[YourPalToots]

We would like our money back for Order #1196, as I've said many times before and through countless emails and phone calls.

Grumpysbeargirl: What was their response to you on the phone?

Please share details with us, the more the better.

I'm sure everyone wants to see you get your moneyback and how AMT resolves this situation.

Thanks

On the phone, we talked with Jim. He kept trying to convince us that the machines were coming and that bitcoin was going to go up. He even likened our 'investment' to that of investing in a [IRA] CD. We kept pushing for the refund anyway and he said he didn't think it would happen but he would pass that along.

He kept asking why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up but the fact is we just made a stupid move by sending them the money. We just want it back.

As I've said before, we don't even want the hardware shipped out to us. We just want our money back.

We've tried to keep optimistic about this and like I said, polite, but so far, no refund.

If you want the money back so bad, why didn't you take ISAWHIM up on the offer to buy your spot?

[sirminesalot]

They don't have to reply here at all. Yet they do.

I fear nothing. I am not kissing any-ones ass. I complained and questioned them, just as everyone-else has. I got my answers, talked to them, and still have to read stupid crap like this in the forum.

What exactly are you looking for? You want a live video-feed from the shop?

They gave us an update. They are coming.

The forum is not where they conduct business. This was a courteous gesture, which was abused, and they rightfully abandoned the crazy troll-thread, initially. Then, they came back, with a PR guy. Who keeps communicating with us. (Then you came and starting trolling the same crap.)

Perhaps you should learn how to be a customer.

1: Buy/Pay
2: Wait
3: Get item

If 3 never happens, then you complain. There is no step between 2-3, where badgering them is a requirement to obtain step 3. Often, it has been my experience that if you do badger anyone, they tend to spit in your burger.

And now what? You're their knight in shining armor here to protect them from questions?

Do me favor and go climb back under the rock you came from and let AMT deal with the questions directed towards them. It isn't like you have the inside scoop at AMT and last time I checked you didn't work for them.

I didn't come here to get answers from fan boys that have nothing solid to go-on other than hopeful wishes. I want answers from AMT.

Grumpysbearsgirl: Sounds really professional...NOT! AMT, you don't need to PROVE anything to AMT because you changed your mind about this investment and want for a refund.

It sounds like they want you to wait for the device, run it for months, then get your ROI back + then some. I would really be cautious about letting them talk you into this, because if you go that route - you'll be taking a big risk. You will have gotten your device and used it and essentially squandered your chance for a legitimate refund. At that point you'll just need to hope you can mine that $ back. When you find you won't get ROI or profits, you'll just be out the initial investment without any real chance of getting a refund at that point because AMT could argue they fulfilled their end of the agreement.

You're best opportunity to get a refund is NOW. They have your cash in hand and you have no product as of yet. Think about it!

Perhaps ISHAWHIM and you should PM, and you consider taking his money for your pre-order since he has so much faith in AMT (and what sounds like quite a bit of disposable income).

[ISAWHIM]

...why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up...

Thus, not a good reason for a refund...

You knew difficulty was going up... It has never gone down... period. Thus, the reason is truly that "you just want a refund, just because you don't think you will make as-much." Truth be told, it has actually gone up less-fast than ever projected. It is going up fast, these are faster miners!

However, difficulty is actually irrelevant to the situation. Since it applies to EVERY single miner being sold, being made, and in the future being thought-of. With every new THs model added to the network, there are thousands of GHs units removed from the network. We are near a technical limit here now. We used all available magic to create these things. They are not going to get much faster now. Until Aliens develop new technology for us.

End of the day, this miner will make close to 12-25 worth of BTC-value in two years, and again, it does not matter what the price is now. It matters what the price will be when you "cash-out". What will value be in two years? (That is when the reward switches from 25 coins per block to 12.5 coins per block, and this miner will possibly not make enough to cover operation costs at the time, but still produce coins for the future-value still.) On a safe estimate, that would be about $1200 x 2 = $2400. On a real estimate, price is closer to $6000+. On a hopeful-high, it is more like $12,000-$30,000 on a "modest trend".

Assume the worst... $900 per BTC x only 12 BTC = $10,800 Which would be about break-even with power consumption. (Now you know why BTC is so stable at about $900 now. For the new guys, that is about break-even, for the old guys, they can still go as low as $600 obviously. But now they have cashed-out. Which leaves... $900 as a realistic future value.)

Truth of the matter is... You see BTC low, and you would rather take that money back, to buy more BTC. Wouldn't it be interesting if they only gave you back your BTC as the return, since that is what you paid them with. (But I doubt they would do that.) That is exactly why they protected themselves from pull-out investors, the way they did.

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

[RickJamesBTC]

Isawhim, it really isn't up to you what a customer decides is a reason for a refund. ANY company worth a damn will refund a customer on an order that hasn't shipped, immediately. Your worthless opinions about the motivation of the customer aside, AMT wants to build a good reputation, they need to start with handling simple customer requests.

[FrictionlessCoin]

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

I agree here,  if you don't think you can recover the money by mining BTC, then sell the unit the moment you get your hands on it.   You will get more in return.

That is likely what I will also do.

See,  1.2 THs is state of the art,  the only thing better out there is Cointerra and KNC.  But you can't get those until March or April.

[AMT_miners]

We already see where this is going with Tom Wilson's (gummybearsgirl) order. In order to avoid any confusion or possible fraud or hiccups that may occur, we will facilitate the transfer of  Tom's order to someone else. When there is an agreement in place, please let us know and we will take care of the rest. It is up to Tom if he'd like to sell his order, and if he finds a buyer we will act as an intermediary in this specific situation for the sole purpose of avoiding any possible conflicts that may arise from this situation. In general, we do not promote skipping the order que or paying extra for express service. We are not selling a spot in line, just trying to give Tom what he wants without going back on our refund policy.

If Tom sells it for the purchase price: 6,089 (5999 + 90 shipping) or less we will act as an escrow agent in this situation and collect from the buying party and issue the funds to Tom while transfer the order.

[loshia]

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

I agree here,  if you don't think you can recover the money by mining BTC, then sell the unit the moment you get your hands on it.   You will get more in return.

That is likely what I will also do.

See,  1.2 THs is state of the art,  the only thing better out there is Cointerra and KNC.  But you can't get those until March or April.

And bitfury dude in terms of power efficiency. We are not discussing prices at al

[sirminesalot]

...why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up...

Thus, not a good reason for a refund...

You knew difficulty was going up... It has never gone down... period. Thus, the reason is truly that "you just want a refund, just because you don't think you will make as-much." Truth be told, it has actually gone up less-fast than ever projected. It is going up fast, these are faster miners!

However, difficulty is actually irrelevant to the situation. Since it applies to EVERY single miner being sold, being made, and in the future being thought-of. With every new THs model added to the network, there are thousands of GHs units removed from the network. We are near a technical limit here now. We used all available magic to create these things. They are not going to get much faster now. Until Aliens develop new technology for us.

End of the day, this miner will make close to 12-25 worth of BTC-value in two years, and again, it does not matter what the price is now. It matters what the price will be when you "cash-out". What will value be in two years? (That is when the reward switches from 25 coins per block to 12.5 coins per block, and this miner will possibly not make enough to cover operation costs at the time, but still produce coins for the future-value still.) On a safe estimate, that would be about $1200 x 2 = $2400. On a real estimate, price is closer to $6000+. On a hopeful-high, it is more like $12,000-$30,000 on a "modest trend".

Assume the worst... $900 per BTC x only 12 BTC = $10,800 Which would be about break-even with power consumption. (Now you know why BTC is so stable at about $900 now. For the new guys, that is about break-even, for the old guys, they can still go as low as $600 obviously. But now they have cashed-out. Which leaves... $900 as a realistic future value.)

Truth of the matter is... You see BTC low, and you would rather take that money back, to buy more BTC. Wouldn't it be interesting if they only gave you back your BTC as the return, since that is what you paid them with. (But I doubt they would do that.) That is exactly why they protected themselves from pull-out investors, the way they did.

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

The fact that you think "running this miner is guaranteed to get X amount of dollars over Y amount of time", shows me how delusional you are. There is no way to predict both the difficulty rise or the value of BTC in 6 months. For all you know the bubble can burst overnight and EVERYONE can lose their ass. Not to mention the cost of electricity (newsflash, KWHs do not cost the same everywhere). Don't act like some day trader that has some INSIDE information - you have NO information or facts to go on, just another hopeful investor who thinks he's going to see MASSIVE returns with his AMT miner.

Either way, this has nothing to do with them not getting their refund for an undelivered product. Trying to sell your device post delivery on the forums or ebay isn't a guaranteed way to get your money back either; let's not look for alternatives to AMT simply refunding a customer for an unfulfilled order. She shouldn't have to hustle to sell her miner because AMT deemed that her reason for a refund wasn't a good one. WHAT IS A GOOD REASON? My grandmother is sick and needs surgery? The money I used to buy the Miner was stolen out of my Mom's purse? My house just burned down, so even if I DO receive the miner, I won't even be able to run it? Get real.

Here's a few good reasons to ask for a refund:

1. AMT hasn't proven to me they are capable of running a business properly and I have serious concerns about the product as well as the warranties they offer on my product.
2. By the time I get my Miner it won't ROI and I'll be out my investment.

Your point about refunding BTC is moot, she paid with Wire Transfer.

Since you are so hell bent on defending AMT at every turn, buy her miner off of her now and put the matter to rest. Put your $ where your mouth is.

[FrictionlessCoin]

...why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up...

Thus, not a good reason for a refund...

You knew difficulty was going up... It has never gone down... period. Thus, the reason is truly that "you just want a refund, just because you don't think you will make as-much." Truth be told, it has actually gone up less-fast than ever projected. It is going up fast, these are faster miners!

However, difficulty is actually irrelevant to the situation. Since it applies to EVERY single miner being sold, being made, and in the future being thought-of. With every new THs model added to the network, there are thousands of GHs units removed from the network. We are near a technical limit here now. We used all available magic to create these things. They are not going to get much faster now. Until Aliens develop new technology for us.

End of the day, this miner will make close to 12-25 worth of BTC-value in two years, and again, it does not matter what the price is now. It matters what the price will be when you "cash-out". What will value be in two years? (That is when the reward switches from 25 coins per block to 12.5 coins per block, and this miner will possibly not make enough to cover operation costs at the time, but still produce coins for the future-value still.) On a safe estimate, that would be about $1200 x 2 = $2400. On a real estimate, price is closer to $6000+. On a hopeful-high, it is more like $12,000-$30,000 on a "modest trend".

Assume the worst... $900 per BTC x only 12 BTC = $10,800 Which would be about break-even with power consumption. (Now you know why BTC is so stable at about $900 now. For the new guys, that is about break-even, for the old guys, they can still go as low as $600 obviously. But now they have cashed-out. Which leaves... $900 as a realistic future value.)

Truth of the matter is... You see BTC low, and you would rather take that money back, to buy more BTC. Wouldn't it be interesting if they only gave you back your BTC as the return, since that is what you paid them with. (But I doubt they would do that.) That is exactly why they protected themselves from pull-out investors, the way they did.

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

The fact that you think "running this miner is guaranteed to get X amount of dollars over Y amount of time", shows me how delusional you are. There is no way to predict both the difficulty rise or the value of BTC in 6 months. For all you know the bubble can burst overnight and EVERYONE can lose their ass. Not to mention the cost of electricity (newsflash, KWHs do not cost the same everywhere). Don't act like some day trader that has some INSIDE information - you have NO information or facts to go on, just another hopeful investor who thinks he's going to see MASSIVE returns with his AMT miner.

Either way, this has nothing to do with them not getting their refund for an undelivered product. Trying to sell your device post delivery on the forums or ebay isn't a guaranteed way to get your money back either; let's not look for alternatives to AMT simply refunding a customer for an unfulfilled order. She shouldn't have to hustle to sell her miner because AMT deemed that her reason for a refund wasn't a good one. WHAT IS A GOOD REASON? My grandmother is sick and needs surgery? The money I used to buy the Miner was stolen out of my Mom's purse? My house just burned down, so even if I DO receive the miner, I won't even be able to run it? Get real.

Here's a few good reasons to ask for a refund:

1. AMT hasn't proven to me they are capable of running a business properly and I have serious concerns about the product as well as the warranties they offer on my product.
2. By the time I get my Miner it won't ROI and I'll be out my investment.

Your point about refunding BTC is moot, she paid with Wire Transfer.

Since you are so hell bent on defending AMT at every turn, buy her miner off of her now and put the matter to rest. Put your $ where your mouth is.

I agree that AMT should have no issue with issuing a refund.

[RickJamesBTC]

We already see where this is going with Tom Wilson's (gummybearsgirl) order. In order to avoid any confusion or possible fraud or hiccups that may occur, we will facilitate the transfer of  Tom's order to someone else. When there is an agreement in place, please let us know and we will take care of the rest. It is up to Tom if he'd like to sell his order, and if he finds a buyer we will act as an intermediary in this specific situation for the sole purpose of avoiding any possible conflicts that may arise from this situation. In general, we do not promote skipping the order que or paying extra for express service. We are not selling a spot in line, just trying to give Tom what he wants without going back on our refund policy.

If Tom sells it for the purchase price: 6,089 (5999 + 90 shipping) or less we will act as an escrow agent in this situation and collect from the buying party and issue the funds to Tom while transfer the order.

What a joke. Again, if you want to build a good reputation, refund their money. Contact them directly, DON'T POST A PERSONS REAL NAME ON A FORUM!!!! and work it out with the customer. How dumb can you be. Did they post their full name here? You really need to hire someone who knows how to respond to customers.

[sirminesalot]

We already see where this is going with Tom Wilson's (gummybearsgirl) order. In order to avoid any confusion or possible fraud or hiccups that may occur, we will facilitate the transfer of  Tom's order to someone else. When there is an agreement in place, please let us know and we will take care of the rest. It is up to Tom if he'd like to sell his order, and if he finds a buyer we will act as an intermediary in this specific situation for the sole purpose of avoiding any possible conflicts that may arise from this situation. In general, we do not promote skipping the order que or paying extra for express service. We are not selling a spot in line, just trying to give Tom what he wants without going back on our refund policy.

If Tom sells it for the purchase price: 6,089 (5999 + 90 shipping) or less we will act as an escrow agent in this situation and collect from the buying party and issue the funds to Tom while transfer the order.

What a joke. Again, if you want to build a good reputation, refund their money. Contact them directly, DON'T POST A PERSONS REAL NAME ON A FORUM!!!! and work it out with the customer. How dumb can you be. Did they post their full name here? You really need to hire someone who knows how to respond to customers.

No shit, I was thinking the same thing.

Ridiculous.

[eightcylinders]

I am up for this.  Tom, please PM me if you are interested in getting your refund.  AMT's offer to essentially refund by allowing me to take your place seems very fair and will help you out at home.   I would love to have two of these but I ordered only one (and I already tried to buy another from AMT already on the hope they would ship both units at the same time as my first order, but they refused to allow me to jump ahead of queue for the second).   So everyone is happy!  Please PM me.

Everyone else should please keep quiet about legal matters that it is clear no one understands.  I AM a lawyer, so let me help out those of you who labor under misconceptions of (consumerist) grandeur.  

First, unlike BFL and Black Arrow, AMT appears to me to be PERFECTLY in compliance with the law regarding pre-orders, which is set forth in 16 CFR Part 435.  In a nutshell, Part 435 requires that (a) a seller must state a specific time within which a pre-order will ship, AND (b) the seller must have a reasonable basis to believe that shipment within that time will happen.  If there is a delay beyond that time, AMT must then (and only then) offer a refund.  Note that the "30 day rule" ONLY applies where the seller does not provide a specific time period for shipment (AMT has provides a very explicit one week window with my order, so it is clear they have a lawyer who read the FTC rule unlike everyone else here).

Here are the relevant parts of the rule:

In connection with mail or telephone order sales in or affecting commerce, as "commerce" is defined in the Federal Trade Commission Act, it constitutes an unfair method of competition, and an unfair or deceptive act or practice for a seller:

(a)(1) To solicit any order for the sale of merchandise to be ordered by the buyer through the mail or by telephone unless, at the time of the solicitation, the seller has a reasonable basis to expect that it will be able to ship any ordered merchandise to the buyer:

(i) Within that time clearly and conspicuously stated in any such solicitation; or

(ii) If no time is clearly and conspicuously stated, within thirty (30) days after receipt of a properly completed order from the buyer, Provided, however, where, at the time the merchandise is ordered the buyer applies to the seller for credit to pay for the merchandise in whole or in part, the seller shall have fifty (50) days, rather than thirty (30) days, to perform the actions required in § 435.2 (a)(1)(ii) of this part.

[snip]

(b)(1) Where a seller is unable to ship merchandise within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, to fail to offer to the buyer, clearly and conspicuously and without prior demand, an option either to consent to a delay in shipping or to cancel the buyer's order and receive a prompt refund. Said offer shall be made within a reasonable time after the seller first becomes aware of its inability to ship within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, but in no event later than said applicable time.

Hopefully that puts the LEGAL issues to rest.  I am not aware of any state laws that are more aggressive than the FTC rule; and the FTC rule has a $16,000 per violation penalty (!!) so it would be a pretty serious matter.  How Black Arrow and BFL get away with their shenanigans I have no idea (maybe they will claim not to be subject to U.S. law) but what they are doing clearly violates the FTC rule (and further, no contractual language can evade this, as it is a matter of U.S. federal law).  AMT has made a clear and conspicuous statement of when they will ship their orders.  I believe all AMT orders have a one week delivery period stated, so that satisfies (a)(1)(i).  To my knowledge, they have not missed any ship date (if they did, the refund provision would kick in, but not until then).  Unlike BA and BFL (and KNC for that matter), AMT has chips in hand, and is building the units.  That would seem to constitute a reasonable basis for believing they will hit their ship dates, which is the most fundamental requirement.

So what we have here is buyer's remorse.  As a matter of law, AMT is not yet under ANY obligation to offer refunds for buyer remorse.  As a matter of business policy, they have said they would allow someone (hopefully me) to buy out a pre-order for a customer with buyer's remorse.  You can argue as a matter of customer service (not law) that they *should* refund all orders at the whim of the ordering party, but very few made to order goods work this way.  Why?  Because if that was the rule then everyone would submit pre-orders with every company merely to hold their place in line, and then demand refunds when something better comes along (or when they have a mortgage payment past due, or a complaining spouse/sig other).  Businesses cannot operate with that type of uncertainty when they have to go out of pocket to buy chips, manufacture circuity boards, etc.  So far, AMT has been fully in compliance with the law (unlike their brethren) and has provided more info than anyone else on their status.  If they miss their ship dates, or if they pull a Black Arrow on us, I will be the first to be demanding refunds and filing FTC complaints.  Until then, there is nothing we can or should do.  

Jeff

We already see where this is going with Tom Wilson's (gummybearsgirl) order. In order to avoid any confusion or possible fraud or hiccups that may occur, we will facilitate the transfer of  Tom's order to someone else. When there is an agreement in place, please let us know and we will take care of the rest. It is up to Tom if he'd like to sell his order, and if he finds a buyer we will act as an intermediary in this specific situation for the sole purpose of avoiding any possible conflicts that may arise from this situation. In general, we do not promote skipping the order que or paying extra for express service. We are not selling a spot in line, just trying to give Tom what he wants without going back on our refund policy.

If Tom sells it for the purchase price: 6,089 (5999 + 90 shipping) or less we will act as an escrow agent in this situation and collect from the buying party and issue the funds to Tom while transfer the order.

[YourPalToots]

Order #1196 isn't even due for delivery for another week... Asking for a refund before it is even due to be shipped, on a pre-order, is not one of those "situations", few would honor for a refund.

"asking for weeks"... That order is only a few weeks old!

"with our mortgage at risk"... What! That is a poor decision of yourself, if that is your action, buying a pre-order with the HOPE that it will make you money in time to pay a mortgage. You need personal priority adjustment. If you HAD issues with your mortgage, they existed before you made the bad choice to buy a miner. A miner, I might add, that has a break-even (at best), within two months after owning it. If your mortgage is at risk, having gains in the third month wouldn't help much.

But I digress... Don't blame others for your poor decisions, and then attempt to hold them accountable for your poor decisions. They offered us miners, we accepted the terms, and now we are getting our miners.

If you want "off the shelf" equipment, that choice has always been there. Now these will be "on the shelf", and then you can complain how they will not make you rich, and want refunds as bitcoins falls again, or as it rises, so you can get your coins back to trade for more money. That is why all these places NEED irreversible transactions. Because buyers continually try to defraud these places. Again, that was a risk you agreed to, once you hit that SEND or submit button, or made that wire-transfer.

The PR guy is doing a great job. However, he needs to stop replying to obvious trolls, who are demanding answers to stupid questions that don't pertain to him. We don't need you (the troll) speaking for us, we have our own mouths, and have gotten the answers we need. (Even if they are not the answers we want to hear.)

I offered to buy peoples orders directly. No-one took me up on the offer. They had a chance for an instant refund, and passed. So, they must not be too anxious for a refund.

Also, last time I checked, most laws state... "Within 30 days of expected delivery." That is for existing items, where delivery was implicitly stated as a "sure thing". Not for "pre-orders", where it is implicitly accepted that any statement of delivery is an "estimate of expected delivery", thus the term "PRE" before the word "ORDER".

They are not refusing refunds. They are refusing unreasonable requests for refunds, without some kind of valid reason. They have that right, as you have chosen to "give them" money to use, as an "advance", on the creation of an "order" to be "filled in a reasonable time". (Unfortunately, it is not YOU who determines what is "reasonable", it is the LAW. Which, I believe, in most countries, is 30 days beyond expected delivery. That is also in paypal's agreement, and ebay's agreement, and UPS's agreement, and FedEx's agreement, and even your CC's agreement. Which I believe CC's extend to 60 and 90, in some instances, but LAW of consumer-protection rules over most of those aforementioned contracts.)

It's been more than a few weeks, thank you lol. Try over 1 month. The point is, we don't want the hardware. Just our money back. And instead of acting like an irrate customer and flaming AMT, we have been nothing but nice about it.

Now you have two public offers to take over your spot. Why don't you accept and be done with it?

[C0Kez3R0]

Hi, for any who are yet unconvinced of the legitimate status of AMT, I can attest to it. I ordered an 80GH/s model and got it already. However, I came on this thread to address the 1.2TH/s unit I have yet to receive. I have been keeping up with this thread and even communicating with a staff member, so I understand there have been delays. I will post a full review complete with photos when I receive the other unit in my order.

If AMT reads this, my order is #847. A response of any kind would be appreciated as I have not had contact in a few days now. I understand the difficulties of starting a new business venture, especially in a market like that of cryptocurrencies. I fully support AMT and their efforts in building a business in this field. Trolls and haters are everywhere, but people without that level of fear and insecurity will realize that someone pursuing their own interests should have no effect or impact on anyone else.

Just thought I would put my two cents in. Also I just wanted to reinforce that AMT is legitimate. I can photograph my 80GH/s unit when I have some time, but as I said I am waiting for the other unit to do a full review. And lastly, I just wanted to know the status or any updates on my order #847.

Hope all is well with everyone in the Bitcoin community.

[FrictionlessCoin]

Hi, for any who are yet unconvinced of the legitimate status of AMT, I can attest to it. I ordered an 80GH/s model and got it already. However, I came on this thread to address the 1.2TH/s unit I have yet to receive. I have been keeping up with this thread and even communicating with a staff member, so I understand there have been delays. I will post a full review complete with photos when I receive the other unit in my order.

If AMT reads this, my order is #847. A response of any kind would be appreciated as I have not had contact in a few days now. I understand the difficulties of starting a new business venture, especially in a market like that of cryptocurrencies. I fully support AMT and their efforts in building a business in this field. Trolls and haters are everywhere, but people without that level of fear and insecurity will realize that someone pursuing their own interests should have no effect or impact on anyone else.

Just thought I would put my two cents in. Also I just wanted to reinforce that AMT is legitimate. I can photograph my 80GH/s unit when I have some time, but as I said I am waiting for the other unit to do a full review. And lastly, I just wanted to know the status or any updates on my order #847.

Hope all is well with everyone in the Bitcoin community.

I have an order for a 1.2 TH/s unit, my order is #962.   A couple pages back, I got confirmation from AMT that I would get the unit around the 3rd week of February.  You likely would get yours sooner.