Bitcoin Forum
December 03, 2016, 05:46:10 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [1423GH] ABCPool PPS - Proxy Pool For High & Steady Mining Rewards  (Read 140632 times)
Eveofwar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 06:50:35 AM
 #601

The fact that the operators of this pool have not responded to those comments is cause for concern, at least for me.  Looking forward to getting some resolution soon. You can say that I am being paid for my hashes at the agreed upon rate, but I assumed (and shame on me I guess for assuming) that my hashes were used to find a block for this pool, not forwarded for use to other pools.
...
For now rest assured that your shares will always be rewarded as agreed, just as they have been in the past.
...
Heh that is funny - completely avoiding the issue with that part of your statement Smiley

Go through the last 2-3 pages, it's been ongoing.

Question dodging galore.
1480787170
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480787170

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480787170
Reply with quote  #2

1480787170
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480787170
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480787170

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480787170
Reply with quote  #2

1480787170
Report to moderator
1480787170
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480787170

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480787170
Reply with quote  #2

1480787170
Report to moderator
1480787170
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480787170

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480787170
Reply with quote  #2

1480787170
Report to moderator
dirtycat
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 455



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 07:02:31 AM
 #602

Anyway they do not mine blocks or have rounds so they can't post this...

related,  ABC pervz, would the control of gigaminer please contact me. If you don't I will just post the data here...

Are you accusing abcpool.co of using others hashing power to pool hop? Do you have evidence of this?

Remember a while back in this thread ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg684977#msg684977
&
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg688695#msg688695

Well...confirmed.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this back up.

poop!
Eveofwar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 07:04:29 AM
 #603

Anyway they do not mine blocks or have rounds so they can't post this...

related,  ABC pervz, would the control of gigaminer please contact me. If you don't I will just post the data here...

Are you accusing abcpool.co of using others hashing power to pool hop? Do you have evidence of this?

Remember a while back in this thread ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg684977#msg684977
&
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg688695#msg688695

Well...confirmed.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this back up.

I was just waiting for the right time, I had you in my back pocket.  No worries kitty Smiley
farfiman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1449



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 07:04:47 AM
 #604

A while back a friend, that I introduced to bitcoin, asked How do I know that my hashing power
isn't being used to help the Iranians develop a nuclear device or some other evil deed...
I just laughed of course and gave him a short explanation how it works.... well, in light
of the recent event(s) I can't say anymore that it's not possible....



EDIT: just noticed it's my 251st post and I am now Sr.Member.. should have put up some wise words...

"We are just fools. We insanely believe that we can replace one politician with another and something will really change. The ONLY possible way to achieve change is to change the very system of how government functions. Until we are prepared to do that, suck it up for your future belongs to the madness and corruption of politicians."
Martin Armstrong
The00Dustin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 806


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 10:30:47 AM
 #605

A while back a friend, that I introduced to bitcoin, asked How do I know that my hashing power
isn't being used to help the Iranians develop a nuclear device or some other evil deed...
I just laughed of course and gave him a short explanation how it works.... well, in light
of the recent event(s) I can't say anymore that it's not possible....



EDIT: just noticed it's my 251st post and I am now Sr.Member.. should have put up some wise words...
It's still not possible, unless it's helping "the Iranians" by earning/finding them something that you can earn/find be solving sha256 hashes (if that's the right kind of hash, but my point is that the miner on your friend's cpu will only do what it is programmed to do).  The GPU is only doing that, so while the hashing power can be redirected, it's purpose can't be changed into something that requires completely different math/work.
jamesg
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330


AKA: gigavps


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 11:11:05 AM
 #606

I agree that it does seem shady for a pool to send it's power off somewhere else without telling it's miners.  If gigavps can verify the information I would be interested in seeing it.

As Goat stated, GPUMAX had nothing to do with this deal and wouldn't condone such an operation.

I would like Giga's thoughts on this and then would like to give ABC a chance to come out and let us know what is going on. If they do not want to clear this up I guess we can post everything we know. Would making public gigaminer's Singular phone account be too much? lol yeah we know who you are:)

I only brought this issue up in the thread to make sure they knew that their hashing power was being redirected, I just wanted to make sure it was not stolen. That is why I have not paid ABC their coins yet, just wanted that confirmation I got via PM recently.

Anyway until this gets sorted, or you post a BTC address in the thread I am going to hold onto the coins...

I did think that it was GPUMAX at first just because damn, 400G but after checking we know it is not GPUMAX.

The information provided looks legitimate. It shows a request for work coming from an amazon ec2 IP address for the worker "gigaminer". It also shows a response with a valid solution to a block.

I am admittedly not an expert in these matters and have been asked to keep the information private. I will let the owners of the information provide it.
farfiman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1449



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 11:30:50 AM
 #607

A while back a friend, that I introduced to bitcoin, asked How do I know that my hashing power
isn't being used to help the Iranians develop a nuclear device or some other evil deed...
I just laughed of course and gave him a short explanation how it works.... well, in light
of the recent event(s) I can't say anymore that it's not possible....



EDIT: just noticed it's my 251st post and I am now Sr.Member.. should have put up some wise words...
It's still not possible, unless it's helping "the Iranians" by earning/finding them something that you can earn/find be solving sha256 hashes (if that's the right kind of hash, but my point is that the miner on your friend's cpu will only do what it is programmed to do).  The GPU is only doing that, so while the hashing power can be redirected, it's purpose can't be changed into something that requires completely different math/work.

maybe for hacking passwords then....

"We are just fools. We insanely believe that we can replace one politician with another and something will really change. The ONLY possible way to achieve change is to change the very system of how government functions. Until we are prepared to do that, suck it up for your future belongs to the madness and corruption of politicians."
Martin Armstrong
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
January 26, 2012, 01:48:33 PM
 #608

Well, they are technically mining blocks and I don't recall them ever saying they were mining blocks on their own bitcoind. 

Frankly, I'm not sure I see anything wrong with this - it's not like they have a monopoly as a pool and people are free to mine where they choose.  I dunno, I have to give it some more thought... but what are the actual objections to this?

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
The00Dustin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 806


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 02:54:40 PM
 #609

Well, they are technically mining blocks and I don't recall them ever saying they were mining blocks on their own bitcoind. 

Frankly, I'm not sure I see anything wrong with this - it's not like they have a monopoly as a pool and people are free to mine where they choose.  I dunno, I have to give it some more thought... but what are the actual objections to this?
"Pool hoppers is the devil and pool operators that run not-hop-proof pools isn't stupid!"  lol, I don't know how I feel about it either, but you know members on this forum like pitchforks and torches more than reason and sense.  We all like transparency, though, and if ABCPool was charging a fee "for pool costs" and making a separate undisclosed sum by using actually mining on a 105% payout pool, I'd rather be in the 105% pool.  Realistically the 105% pool doesn't want <500MH hashers, though, so the option to merge my power with someone else and get paid the same is nice (other than the 4% fee would then really be a 9% fee in disguise).
siggy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 235



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 02:57:54 PM
 #610

And on a completely unrelated note... I see that my invalids have shot up to almost 5% since yesterday..  Any idea what is up with that?

Sigg

I am Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. You will be approximated.
despoiler
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 94


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 05:18:08 PM
 #611

And on a completely unrelated note... I see that my invalids have shot up to almost 5% since yesterday..  Any idea what is up with that?

Sigg

They are implementing load balancing to their servers and it isn't 100% yet. 
MintCondition
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 06:28:43 PM
 #612

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your patience. While we took care of rolling out the DDOS countermeasures, a lively discussion has been going on in the ABC thread. We think the time has come to explain a few things about how ABCPool works behind the scenes.

Well-respected forum member Meni Rosenfeld ran the numbers on running a PPS pool, and while ABCPool was still young he shared those with us in a PM conversation:
Most people greatly underestimate what the risk of PPS is. You may want to have a look at my discussion of PPS here. If you don't take a fee there is a 100% chance you will go bankrupt eventually. If you take 2% fee and start with a reserve of 500 BTC the chance is 67%, which is very high. And this is without considering losses due to block withholding, stales, invalid blocks etc.
That pdf  [https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf which Meni introduced earlier]  seems to offer a straightforward way to compute the fee, great!
You could use it that way. Take some reasonable number for delta, such as 1/1000. Then the fee should be
f = (B ln(1/delta))/(2R) = 173/R
so for a 10,000 BTC reserve you should take 1.7% fee.
To this you need to add losses from useless shares - if this loss is 2% you need 3.7% fee.
It's important to realize that running a PPS pool can't be done as a hobby. It's a serious business that needs a very careful risk assessment. The more accurate your loss estimate (and the lower you manage to make these losses) the more successful it will be.
Well, as you might imagine, we did not have 10,000 BTC. Neither did at least three other PPS pools that have since gone out of business or changed their reward model.

But if we could somehow decrease that enormous risk, the required buffer could also be a lot smaller. That’s why we now do what most miners do. They consider solo mining too risky, and aggregate their mining power with the mining power of others by joining a pool. Or in our case, joining several pools.

And as any pool miner has experienced, the result is as expected: less variation in the payouts we receive. In turn we are now able to pay the ABC miners their PPS rewards without a 10,000 BTC buffer, without a 10% fee, and without the immediate loom of pool bankruptcy hanging over us.

Pool growth in December was overwhelming. Meanwhile we were still compensating (1) orphaned blocks and (2) stale shares. And although the risk was reduced by pool mining, we had (3) a lot of bad luck that month. That's when we had to start charging the 4% fee.

We understand that there might be people who want to leave ABCPool, having heard this news. Maybe you want the pool operator to take the full risk of finding blocks. Maybe you'd rather take your chances on a non-PPS pool, now that you know that we do so too. Maybe you feel that we should have disclosed this information earlier. Whatever your reason, that's fine with us. Of course if you stay, you can continue to enjoy all the benefits ABCPool provides; nothing is changing there.

We hope this explanation clears things up a bit. You are free to ask any question you have about the pool's workings. We will however not go into too much detail because the competition is always watching.



There were a few comments in this thread recently that are inviting a reply:
infos like round stats, block history, top hashers would be nice to have?
lmfao Smiley
Anyway they do not mine blocks or have rounds so they can't post this...
We may list block history and top hashers in the future. There are no rounds however because we pay per share, not per round. See also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg685134#msg685134

So what I do know and can prove is that ABC was sending me hashing power and they were getting paid 105% for this.

Some of ABCPool hashpower went to Goat’s project, around a million shares.

I did not DDOS them, I do not even know why you would think that was related.
The DDOS is indeed a completely separate incident, involving thousands of hosts. Goat had nothing to do with it. Now that the countermeasures are in place, we will supply a post-mortem on the DDOS shortly.

Happy hashing everyone!
MC & Chlorine

Eveofwar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 06:32:15 PM
 #613

So you effectively made ~9% off your miners by going to Goat ?

4% fee + 5% bonus.
MintCondition
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
 #614

And on a completely unrelated note... I see that my invalids have shot up to almost 5% since yesterday..  Any idea what is up with that?

Sigg

They are implementing load balancing to their servers and it isn't 100% yet. 
You are hitting the nail on the head despoiler. Although we tested successfully under light load, the switch did not go altogether smoothly when it was rolled out in full. Those issues have been resolved last night. We will report on the DDOS and the countermeasures shortly.

Hawkix
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 517



View Profile WWW
January 26, 2012, 06:45:23 PM
 #615

But if we could somehow decrease that enormous risk, the required buffer could also be a lot smaller. That’s why we now do what most miners do. They consider solo mining too risky, and aggregate their mining power with the mining power of others by joining a pool. Or in our case, joining several pools.

What pools, specifically? I hope all miners here understand that it is very important to know what blocks they are contributing to solve to. Nowadays, pools are necessary evil, but "pool proxy" is rather dangerous thing.

Donations: 1Hawkix7GHym6SM98ii5vSHHShA3FUgpV6
http://btcportal.net/ - All about Bitcoin - coming soon!
MintCondition
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 06:49:35 PM
 #616

So you effectively made ~9% off your miners by going to Goat ?

4% fee + 5% bonus.
Not exactly. The experiment with gigaminer was small (about a million shares), but a complete disaster. We ended up paying our miners for about 200,000 valid shares which have been rejected upstream.

ABC miners are always credited for every valid share they submit as long as it’s not a duplicate. Even if an 'upstream pool' later turns out to reject the share, the original miner is still credited.

That's another way that we create a predictable experience for our miners, which cost us quite a bit in this instance.

jamesg
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330


AKA: gigavps


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 07:34:45 PM
 #617

MintCondition,

Could you please be more specific about what pools you are mining on and how you choose which pools you are mining. Are you using bithopper, or some other custom software?

It would seem that while you have "come clean" about what you are doing with shares you have not explained the how.

Are you pool hopping proportional pools with other miner's hashes?

Thanks,
gigavps
jake262144
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 08:36:11 PM
 #618

Hey Gigavps, that's PRECISELY what worries me about projects such as Goat's.
"We'll give you 1xx%!" looks good on paper but that money HAS to come from somewhere and Goat wasn't Santa Claus last time I checked.
The official explanation is that the hash power is being rented, which of course cuts the further debate as everything else is considered a "trade secret".
I wouldn't touch such a scheme with a ten feet pole.

Mint, any comment?
kano
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1918


Linux since 1997 RedHat 4


View Profile
January 26, 2012, 09:09:08 PM
 #619

So you effectively made ~9% off your miners by going to Goat ?

4% fee + 5% bonus.
Not exactly. The experiment with gigaminer was small (about a million shares), but a complete disaster. We ended up paying our miners for about 200,000 valid shares which have been rejected upstream.

ABC miners are always credited for every valid share they submit as long as it’s not a duplicate. Even if an 'upstream pool' later turns out to reject the share, the original miner is still credited.

That's another way that we create a predictable experience for our miners, which cost us quite a bit in this instance.
Could you please explain this properly.

As far as I see it, it is your choice of where you sent the hashing that caused this problem.
So of course you should pay for the problems you cause - it would make no sense why people who mine at your pool should pay for that.
Had you processed the shares yourself, the stales would not have been anything like that
No pool should be having 20% stales, ever! ... all but foolish members would leave such a pool.

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with Stratum, the best protocol to mine Bitcoins with ASIC hardware
MintCondition
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
January 26, 2012, 09:13:53 PM
 #620

Could you please be more specific about what pools you are mining on and how you choose which pools you are mining. Are you using bithopper, or some other custom software?

It would seem that while you have "come clean" about what you are doing with shares you have not explained the how.

Are you pool hopping proportional pools with other miner's hashes?
Hey Gigavps, that's PRECISELY what worries me about projects such as Goat's.
"We'll give you 1xx%!" looks good on paper but that money HAS to come from somewhere and Goat wasn't Santa Claus last time I checked.
The official explanation is that the hash power is being rented, which of course cuts the further debate as everything else is considered a "trade secret".
I wouldn't touch such a scheme with a ten feet pole.

Mint, any comment?
Good point jake.
At some point we'll have to play the trade secret card too. There's a lot of smart people in the Bitcoin community, some of whom may already be thinking about launching a similar service.

What I can say is that we're using a variety of sources. We mix those both to spread the block-finding risk as much as possible, and to ensure a stable experience for our miners. The most important thing for us, and indeed the whole idea behind launching ABCPool originally, is to provide miners the most predictable mining experience possible: known rewards, low stales, low latency, high uptime. It turns out there are lots of pools out there that are barely functioning, so balancing stability and risk is quite a challenge.

As for the software/hardware, see http://www.abcpool.co/about.php. I cannot stress enough how heavily we customized Pushpool, to the point it's almost unrecognizable. Many hours went into that. You also mentioned Bithopper. ABCPool does not use Bithopper, or any custom mining software for that matter (besides pushpool and simplecoin of course).

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!