Bitcoin Forum
December 16, 2019, 05:33:11 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.19.0.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 1777 1778 1779 1780 1781 1782 1783 1784 1785 1786 1787 1788 1789 1790 1791 1792 1793 1794 1795 1796 1797 1798 1799 1800 1801 1802 1803 1804 1805 1806 1807 1808 1809 1810 1811 1812 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 [1827] 1828 1829 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834 1835 1836 1837 1838 1839 1840 1841 1842 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 ... 2565 »
  Print  
Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756356 times)
Meizirkki
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616
Merit: 500



View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:16:20 AM
 #36521

I've been doing some thinking about Nxt, and would like to make a guess at the third part of BCNext's plan:

The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.

We'll see if I'm right when the next part of The Plan gets posted, but here's my argument:
  • "Value" for Nxt is derived based on the services it provides.  Many of these services are yet to be created, but are in the works: AT, NxtCash, Atomic Cross-Chain Trading, data storage, etc.  Nodes that participate in providing these services should be rewarded.
  • Treat Nxt as a "base layer" upon which other currencies, applications, and services are built.  As few constraints as possible must must be placed on these services by the Nxt core.  The first two parts of BCNext's plan hint at this: transparent forging does away with "mining" based on probability and even introduces flexible block-generation timing; "atomic" transaction types like aliases, arbitrary messages, voting, and asset exchange operations are a flexible foundation for the creation of high-level functions at layers above the Nxt core.  Contrast this with Bitcoin, which is forever constrained as a proof-of-work system with fixed block generation times, slow transaction processing, and the implementation of a "scripting language" at its base layer.
  • Just like a web page does not know anything about the network on which it sits, and the network knows nothing about the physical characteristics of the wires/fibre it runs on, all Nxt layers should be agnostic towards one another (i.e. abstracted).  As a result, a higher-layer application (such as NxtCash) has to be able to operate without dependencies on the Nxt core.  Taking this analogy further: businesses don't deploy TCP/IP networks in their IT closets for the sake of deploying networks; they do it because they want to provide a service on top of the network.  The service covers the cost of the network equipment; the equipment doesn't generate revenue on its own.  For the astute: this is basic OSI model thinking.
  • There is no automated mechanism or algorithm for adapting or scaling minimum transaction fees.  It's hard-coded.  This is an odd, hobbling flaw in an infrastructure that is otherwise so effectively decentralized and so wisely architected.

Putting these items together:

Nxt services already operate on top of nodes, so the network is secured and the blockchain is maintained as a consequence of the service's existence.  Value is created at layers above the Nxt core, and "forging-only" nodes become valueless and therefore obsolete.

Services built on top of Nxt cannot be dependent on fees "charged" at a lower layer, because eventually the accounts that operate these services will be depleted.  A depletion due to fees would kill the service associated with the depleted account(s), since it would render those services unable to generate transactions.  In fact, a network attack could be formulated by flooding a Nxt service with transactions, causing it to "go bankrupt".  The only way to allow 100% availability is to remove the dependence on a minimum transaction fee, and move the profit/reward for the service up into the same layer at which the service is offered.

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.
You could be right!
Now that I am writing a service on top of NXT, the 1 NXT fee makes it cost prohibitive. Even 0.1 is on the high side. For instance, I want to publish peer reviewed pricing data every block. Currently that costs 1440 NXT/day, which makes it DOA. Even at 144 NXT per day, it is not practical. At 14.4 NXT per day, I can start thinking about deploying it with hopes of getting subscribers to pay the cost. Eventually, it would be nice if the fee went to .001, .0001, etc. as low as we can go without letting the spam clog the network

James

P.S. Do you know the API for getting a token for website? I only see the decoding of token, but I need to generate one.

I've posed this elsewhere and still don't know if it's feasible, but what if you got rid of forging rewards altogether and instead made transactions free (or very small to prevent spamming) for NXters who forge? People who don't run a node would have to pay a higher fee. You'd practically eliminate fees as well as provide a financial incentive for people to forge. You could also make the transaction fee % based on the stake but that seems kind of elitist.
To be able to forge yourself any practical income you need a ton of NXT. Having that ton is already enough incentive to protect the network and your stake in it.
1576474391
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1576474391

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1576474391
Reply with quote  #2

1576474391
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
allwelder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1004



View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:20:42 AM
 #36522


I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

This is also my thinking....the only need for minimum Tx fees to protect the Network from spam.

If we can solve the spam problem then the above will be quite easy.



New Anti Spam Mechanisms:

Skycoin has coins and has coin hours. You get 1 coin hour for holding 1 coin for one hour. Transaction fees are paid in coinhours, not in coins. When you spend an output, you must spend 50% of the coin hours. Therefore spamming transactions depletes your coin hour balance exponentially quickly. If there are 100 coinhours in the inputs and only 40 coin hours created in the outputs, then the "fee" is 60 coin hours. The number of coins in the output must equal the number of coins in the input. This is hardcoded.

Transaction priority is <transaction size> / <coinhour fee>. If the priority is too low, the transaction will not be propagated and it will not be included in blocks. This will dramatically cut down on small transaction spam and keeps the blockchain small.

Each Skycoin is 1 million droplets. Each coin is divisible to six decimal places. At launch, output balances must be multiples of 1 million droplets (a whole coin). This is to prevent transaction spam. As the price goes up, this will be reduced to 100,000 droplets. We want to keep the minimum output size to 0.25 Euros  Skycoin does not have 0.000000000005 dollar transactions.

All very small "microtransactions" must be executed as off blockchain transactions. Microtransactions are instant and they are free and they dont pollute the block chain with spam.

just see some info about the anti-spam method of skycoin ,doesnt know if it is useful.

 
                                . ██████████.
                              .████████████████.
                           .██████████████████████.
                        -█████████████████████████████
                     .██████████████████████████████████.
                  -█████████████████████████████████████████
               -███████████████████████████████████████████████
           .-█████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       ..████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████..
       .   .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .      .████████████████████████████████████████████████.

       .       .██████████████████████████████████████████████
       .    ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
           .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████
              .████████████████████████████████████████████████
                   ████████████████████████████████████████
                      ██████████████████████████████████
                          ██████████████████████████
                             ████████████████████
                               ████████████████
                                   █████████
.CryptoTalk.org.|.MAKE POSTS AND EARN BTC!.🏆
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:20:57 AM
 #36523

We were going to test NIP workflow. The test failed.

Can you comment on why it failed?

Coz noone bothered to complete it.
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:23:09 AM
 #36524

why has this thread gone so quite?


Devs at BCNext's pool party



A я бы вдyл 1-oй, 3-eй и 6-oй caмoчкaм...
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 07:26:36 AM
 #36525

Seeing we are speculating about BCNext's final plan for TF I will put forward another possibility:

Proof of stake to be changed from being the amount of NXT to simply the number of "special forging accounts" you have (that can only be created *after* this plan is released) and you will need to use NXT to purchase each account (but not much - perhaps as low as 1 NXT).

I would predict also that your special forging account number would need to be "broadcast" to your peers (with each peer only accepting forged blocks coming from the one IP address from the 1 account).

Smiley

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
SkillRoad
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 112
Merit: 10


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:27:07 AM
 #36526

why has this thread gone so quite?


Devs at BCNext's pool party



A я бы вдyл 1-oй, 3-eй и 6-oй caмoчкaм...

They are all good
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:27:56 AM
 #36527

cfb, added warning as mentioned.

Thank u.
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 07:33:18 AM
 #36528

...a complete nightmare for those that do NOT have a static IP...  

You would just need to re-connect to peers when your address changes (but admittedly it would not helpful if your node was running over TOR).

But aside from that problem the advantage is now everyone can forge without requiring any more "stake" than the price of an account.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
martismartis
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1005


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:33:29 AM
 #36529

Hmm,

"HTTP ERROR: 404

Problem accessing /admin.html. Reason:

Not Found"

What info'd I provide?

Use port 7876
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 07:34:51 AM
 #36530

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

We need something to counteract spam-transactions. But we indeed could set fees to 0 and use hashcash approach.
jl777
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1090


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 07:54:03 AM
Last edit: February 23, 2014, 08:07:38 AM by jl777
 #36531

@CfB

what is the API for generating a website token? It is not on the wiki, but it must exist as the NRS has the "key" functioning

No such API, u r supposed to generate it on client side coz it requires to know a passphrase.
If I am on the client side, is there a way of invoking the "key" code? I just want an easy way to provide proof that the AM being broadcast was created by the "sender". I want to construct a "website" that is <NXT acct>.timestamp, this is something that changes all the time, so there is no harm in publishing the key (edit: I mean website token). Acct password stays client side as I am not actually doing a website.

Any chance you can open up the website "key" creation code? We already have a way to verify the key, so it only makes sense to have a way to create a signature. I just dont want to mess around with Curve encryption, or whatever I have to do, when I know the code is already there and working.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 08:24:20 AM
 #36532

CfB thought I might want to make my suggestion for a possible different future of TF clearer.

What I am advocating would mean that the % chance to forge would effectively be the number of "forging accounts + IP addreses" you have (for most average people that is going to be 1).

So rather than having to get 100K or more NXT to forge you would only need to purchase 1 "forging account" (say 1 NXT?) to forge.

I hope that explains it better (unfortunately sometimes I just *assume* people understand my ideas).

Smiley

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
oldnbold
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 64
Merit: 10


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 08:26:09 AM
 #36533


bitcoin sucks bigtime, it ruined my CPU.

didnt opened my wallet for some time and blockchain download took ages.

CPU overheated 3 times during blockchain download with result every time laptop turned itself off.

I realy don"t see it in bitcoin honestly.

The common user doesn't have to download the entire bitcoin blockchain. Use lightweight client like Electrum ..


Client issues are really not the issue. those kinds of problems are an inconvenience, but in the long term they are something that can be overcome. Honestly, to someone like myself who doesn't have a high level of knowledge when it comes to computers, the NXT client is difficult to operate, but that problem will be solved in time as the software is developed. The real problem is indicated by the reluctance of people to adopt NXT because of the method of dispersal. People don't want to commit to NXT because you have to invest in the currency and can't get NXT by mining in the way that Bitcoin and most other Cryptos are mined. People think that proof of stake is unfair to those who don't have a lot of stake and they don't want to run the client for the sake of the network with a decreased probability in receiving free coins. So what is going to happen when Bitcoin is mined out and there is NO chance of receiving coins for operating 1000 watt mining equipment. Are people still going to be willing to maintain the Bitcoin network then? There is an initial investment required to become a NXTER but once that investment is made, maintaining the network by running your client is not as much of a liability as running asic equipment, the return from forging is directly proportional to your investment, and forging is perpetual and you will never run out of coins to forge. People who support Bitcoin really don't support Bitcoin (most of them anyway). They support mining free Bitcoins, and eventually there are going to be no more Bitcoins to mine and running mining equipment will be an expense with no possibility of return. In that respect, Bitcoin is a sinking ship and when there are no more coins to mine, Bitcoin supporters will abandon the network like rats........ along with the long confirmation times and malleability problems........ and block chain downloading..........and overall lack of usable features Bitcoin is a walking dinosaur.

Thanks! Great post - written in non technical language, using metaphors (sinking ship) to aid understanding. Especially useful for Noobs like me. Perhaps posts like this could be collated to form the basis of a beginners' guide.

BTW dinosaurs were walking around for about 165 million years. Walking disasters however can measure their life expectancy in months at most.

Bye bye Bitcoin :-)
pandaisftw
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 08:28:48 AM
 #36534

Proofread, not proofwatch Grin

Images not ready.

Looks good to me.

NXT: 13095091276527367030
oldnbold
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 64
Merit: 10


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 08:33:56 AM
 #36535

why has this thread gone so quite?

becausse NXT is dead, it is having hughe flaws end DEV cant fix them, just saying if you want to save some money sell it all now

I love you, you big soppy silly.  Kiss

Nice comeback Damelon - the reaction of someone who, knowing he's on the winning side, is prepared to be magnanimous  Cool
2Kool4Skewl
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 250

CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 08:35:15 AM
 #36536

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

We need something to counteract spam-transactions. But we indeed could set fees to 0 and use hashcash approach.

The hashcash approach might limit transaction times on slower devices.  It would depend on how much computation the device would have to use.

BCNext already stated in the second part of his plan that tx fees should be kept low.  I agree with this.

I was hoping the third part of his plan would be to include a social credit system.

 
                                . ██████████.
                              .████████████████.
                           .██████████████████████.
                        -█████████████████████████████
                     .██████████████████████████████████.
                  -█████████████████████████████████████████
               -███████████████████████████████████████████████
           .-█████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       ..████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████..
       .   .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .      .████████████████████████████████████████████████.

       .       .██████████████████████████████████████████████
       .    ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
           .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████
              .████████████████████████████████████████████████
                   ████████████████████████████████████████
                      ██████████████████████████████████
                          ██████████████████████████
                             ████████████████████
                               ████████████████
                                   █████████
CryptoTalk.org| 
MAKE POSTS AND EARN BTC!
🏆
2Kool4Skewl
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 250

CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 08:38:43 AM
 #36537

What do the Nxt stakeholders think about releasing the current source code earlier than April 1st?

We discussed this with CfB some time ago, as a way to get more developers involved and make it easier for client developers, not having to rely on decompiled code to see the Nxt internals. The copycats are already decompiling the Nxt classes, so there aren't any hidden secrets. I thought I would at least wait until I finish the 0.8.0 refactoring, but now that this is also released, it may be a good time to think about making the source open earlier, say March 1st?


I think releasing the source code early would be a good idea.

 
                                . ██████████.
                              .████████████████.
                           .██████████████████████.
                        -█████████████████████████████
                     .██████████████████████████████████.
                  -█████████████████████████████████████████
               -███████████████████████████████████████████████
           .-█████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       ..████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████..
       .   .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .      .████████████████████████████████████████████████.

       .       .██████████████████████████████████████████████
       .    ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
           .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████
              .████████████████████████████████████████████████
                   ████████████████████████████████████████
                      ██████████████████████████████████
                          ██████████████████████████
                             ████████████████████
                               ████████████████
                                   █████████
CryptoTalk.org| 
MAKE POSTS AND EARN BTC!
🏆
Come-from-Beyond
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1009

Newbie


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 08:40:46 AM
 #36538

BCNext already stated in the second part of his plan that tx fees should be kept low.  I agree with this.

BCNext doesn't want hashcash to be used coz 1000 tps would require a lot of electricity to be burnt, which is not very "green".
2Kool4Skewl
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 250

CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!


View Profile WWW
February 23, 2014, 08:45:08 AM
 #36539

BCNext already stated in the second part of his plan that tx fees should be kept low.  I agree with this.

BCNext doesn't want hashcash to be used coz 1000 tps would require a lot of electricity to be burnt, which is not very "green".

That's a good point.

Can you please ask BCNext his opinion on implementing a social credit system?  Such a system would allow Nxt to be used as a platform for LETSystems.

 
                                . ██████████.
                              .████████████████.
                           .██████████████████████.
                        -█████████████████████████████
                     .██████████████████████████████████.
                  -█████████████████████████████████████████
               -███████████████████████████████████████████████
           .-█████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       ..████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████..
       .   .██████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
       .      .████████████████████████████████████████████████.

       .       .██████████████████████████████████████████████
       .    ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████
       .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████.
        .███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
           .█████████████████████████████████████████████████████
              .████████████████████████████████████████████████
                   ████████████████████████████████████████
                      ██████████████████████████████████
                          ██████████████████████████
                             ████████████████████
                               ████████████████
                                   █████████
CryptoTalk.org| 
MAKE POSTS AND EARN BTC!
🏆
redsn0w
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1041


#Free market


View Profile
February 23, 2014, 08:49:07 AM
 #36540

BCNext already stated in the second part of his plan that tx fees should be kept low.  I agree with this.

BCNext doesn't want hashcash to be used coz 1000 tps would require a lot of electricity to be burnt, which is not very "green".

That's a good point.

Can you please ask BCNext his opinion on implementing a social credit system?  Such a system would allow Nxt to be used as a platform for LETSystems.

Quote
Pages: « 1 ... 1777 1778 1779 1780 1781 1782 1783 1784 1785 1786 1787 1788 1789 1790 1791 1792 1793 1794 1795 1796 1797 1798 1799 1800 1801 1802 1803 1804 1805 1806 1807 1808 1809 1810 1811 1812 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 [1827] 1828 1829 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834 1835 1836 1837 1838 1839 1840 1841 1842 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 ... 2565 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!