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Author Topic: ALLMINE INC - FPGA Cryptominer  (Read 51268 times)
melpheos
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July 18, 2018, 08:41:09 PM
 #861


I agree...but if such happened to me...and I found out I paid VAT for USA hosting..at the average EU rate (more than 1/2) from what
I can tell at 20% VAT ...I'd be pissed...legit or not...would show bad management under the 'best' of circumstances...

brad

Being in Europe, I wont escape VAT (well I already paid it because I bought it with FPGA land anyway and shipped to me)
But indeed 20% hurts
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Iamtutut
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July 18, 2018, 09:07:27 PM
 #862

In their site's FAQ, they're saying (about GPUs),

  • Where are my GPU cards located?
    Your GPU cards are located in one of our data centers in either the United States or Europe.

So I was wondering, can't I just buy an FPGA which will be hosted in a European center and then shipped from Europe? Or no matter what, they'll ship from US to a European center and I'll get charged the import fees?

Europe doesn't necessary means EU.

And I think the country of origin regarding custom clearance rules will always be USA, unless the final assembly does not take place is the US.

What is not legal is to charge the import VAT on the FPGA itself as long as the FPGA is not being delivered to the buyer. And the buyer has to bear his/her country's VAT. The EU countries VAT rates vary from 17% to 25%, six EU countries only having a 20% VAT rate. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf
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July 19, 2018, 09:05:51 AM
Last edit: July 19, 2018, 09:19:25 AM by killquentin
 #863

there is also an additional tax on parts which got manufactured in China, US takes 25% on top...

just for parts which get imported to the US
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July 19, 2018, 07:49:57 PM
 #864

Something seems off if you are hosting with Mineority and the product is some place outside of the the EU I do not see how they can get away with charging VAT.  Something is wrong with someones understanding of how this should work.  This needs to be challenged.  If you had the product shipped to you in the EU then certainly you owe VAT, but for a hosting service?  That isn't right!
dragonmike
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July 20, 2018, 09:38:44 AM
 #865

Something seems off if you are hosting with Mineority and the product is some place outside of the the EU I do not see how they can get away with charging VAT.  Something is wrong with someones understanding of how this should work.  This needs to be challenged.  If you had the product shipped to you in the EU then certainly you owe VAT, but for a hosting service?  That isn't right!
No it's not right.
But they aren't budging. Which is concerning.



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senseless
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July 20, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
 #866

Something seems off if you are hosting with Mineority and the product is some place outside of the the EU I do not see how they can get away with charging VAT.  Something is wrong with someones understanding of how this should work.  This needs to be challenged.  If you had the product shipped to you in the EU then certainly you owe VAT, but for a hosting service?  That isn't right!
No it's not right.
But they aren't budging. Which is concerning.

I've offered refunds to those EU orders who submitted support tickets regarding the issue. If you'd like your order refunded let me know send an email to sales [at] fpga dot land.


TheRealCashen
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July 20, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
 #867

Haven't been around in a couple weeks.

Any update with when we think they will ship?
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July 20, 2018, 03:44:05 PM
 #868

Haven't been around in a couple weeks.

Any update with when we think they will ship?

August is still the delivery target / expected delivery time -- We're still waiting for Xilinx to let us know when the first boards will be off the assembly line.






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July 20, 2018, 05:26:28 PM
 #869

I just skimmed through last few pages, and I think people are complaining about non-existence issue here. They are charing VAT because they don't know what your plan is at the end of hosting service; whether you want to continue hosting or you want your cards back (you paid full price for them, remember?). They are doing this to protect themselves, and if it is something you disagree with, I'd just request a refund before it's too late. Maybe they could work something out with you to ensure your cards will always stay in the US (like an agreement to sell at market price or donating them to a data center or something in the event of hosting service going belly up), just something to think about.
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July 20, 2018, 07:25:16 PM
 #870

I just skimmed through last few pages, and I think people are complaining about non-existence issue here. They are charing VAT because they don't know what your plan is at the end of hosting service; whether you want to continue hosting or you want your cards back (you paid full price for them, remember?). They are doing this to protect themselves, and if it is something you disagree with, I'd just request a refund before it's too late. Maybe they could work something out with you to ensure your cards will always stay in the US (like an agreement to sell at market price or donating them to a data center or something in the event of hosting service going belly up), just something to think about.

That's illegal, period.
They run established buisiness companies, they're not small time DIYers out of a developping country.
senseless
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July 20, 2018, 09:47:58 PM
 #871

I just skimmed through last few pages, and I think people are complaining about non-existence issue here. They are charing VAT because they don't know what your plan is at the end of hosting service; whether you want to continue hosting or you want your cards back (you paid full price for them, remember?). They are doing this to protect themselves, and if it is something you disagree with, I'd just request a refund before it's too late. Maybe they could work something out with you to ensure your cards will always stay in the US (like an agreement to sell at market price or donating them to a data center or something in the event of hosting service going belly up), just something to think about.

That's illegal, period.
They run established buisiness companies, they're not small time DIYers out of a developping country.

Are you even one of the orders?

There are only a handful of orders from the EU. Of those orders, a good percentage are companies with VAT IDs that didn't pay any vat at all to begin with. It seems like the only people who are in an uproar over this are people who aren't customers. I think the number of people who were vat paying EU orders that also had mineority hosting were 2. 3 pages of posts here and endless chatter on discord..... over... 2 orders...


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July 20, 2018, 10:01:07 PM
 #872

I just skimmed through last few pages, and I think people are complaining about non-existence issue here. They are charing VAT because they don't know what your plan is at the end of hosting service; whether you want to continue hosting or you want your cards back (you paid full price for them, remember?). They are doing this to protect themselves, and if it is something you disagree with, I'd just request a refund before it's too late. Maybe they could work something out with you to ensure your cards will always stay in the US (like an agreement to sell at market price or donating them to a data center or something in the event of hosting service going belly up), just something to think about.

That's illegal, period.
They run established buisiness companies, they're not small time DIYers out of a developping country.

I don't see how that is illegal because the cards WILL eventually go to EU (dealing with VAT up front is less hassle for both parties in my opinion). Unless there is an agreement to ensure that cards will stay in the US, only then charging VAT for EU MIGHT be illegal. I don't work for ALLMINE; just my personal view on the whole VAT thing. 
melpheos
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July 21, 2018, 04:39:54 AM
 #873

I just skimmed through last few pages, and I think people are complaining about non-existence issue here. They are charing VAT because they don't know what your plan is at the end of hosting service; whether you want to continue hosting or you want your cards back (you paid full price for them, remember?). They are doing this to protect themselves, and if it is something you disagree with, I'd just request a refund before it's too late. Maybe they could work something out with you to ensure your cards will always stay in the US (like an agreement to sell at market price or donating them to a data center or something in the event of hosting service going belly up), just something to think about.
Sure at a point the card will be send to EU but only at the point it is legal to charge VAT. Nothing prevents them to charge VAT along with the shipping after the hosting is completed.
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July 21, 2018, 05:41:24 AM
 #874

I don't see how that is illegal because the cards WILL eventually go to EU (dealing with VAT up front is less hassle for both parties in my opinion). Unless there is an agreement to ensure that cards will stay in the US, only then charging VAT for EU MIGHT be illegal. I don't work for ALLMINE; just my personal view on the whole VAT thing. 
You don't see because you don't know.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en#_Imported_goods
"Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeablewhen the following types of goods enter the EU"
goods that are not for free circulation in the EU
Iamtutut
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July 21, 2018, 05:46:39 AM
 #875

Are you even one of the orders?

There are only a handful of orders from the EU. Of those orders, a good percentage are companies with VAT IDs that didn't pay any vat at all to begin with. It seems like the only people who are in an uproar over this are people who aren't customers. I think the number of people who were vat paying EU orders that also had mineority hosting were 2. 3 pages of posts here and endless chatter on discord..... over... 2 orders...
I don't have to be one of the orders to tell people what the law is. Because of this VAT charge at a rate that doesn't correspond to the actual VAT of 22 out of 28 EU members, few people ordered from the EU.
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July 21, 2018, 05:21:33 PM
 #876

guys could anybody update me on the RAM compatibility please, if there is any info out there already. I purchased BCUs without RAM. As far as I understand that shouldbe 4x 4Gb DDR4 blocks.
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July 21, 2018, 07:09:18 PM
 #877

I don't see how that is illegal because the cards WILL eventually go to EU (dealing with VAT up front is less hassle for both parties in my opinion). Unless there is an agreement to ensure that cards will stay in the US, only then charging VAT for EU MIGHT be illegal. I don't work for ALLMINE; just my personal view on the whole VAT thing. 
You don't see because you don't know.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en#_Imported_goods
"Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeablewhen the following types of goods enter the EU"
goods that are not for free circulation in the EU

Your argument reminds me of a couple complaining at pre-paid buffet restaurant (not sure if you guys have these in EU, but there's a few places that charge up front in my city). Their model is if people don't like it, they can take their business elsewhere. I'm assuming the owner had dine and dash customers prior, and wanted to play it safe. I'm not saying people try to evade VAT here, but you have to understand from the owner's perspective. Also, a dude above you comments on how they could charge VAT prior to shipping, and I think that's a good too. But at the end of the day, businesses operate in the best of their interest, not the customers'. If you disagree, just take your business elsewhere like the buffet example above, and that will show them. Maybe when they saw the sales drop, they would change their policy. Just my $0.02
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July 21, 2018, 09:09:36 PM
 #878


Your argument reminds me of a couple complaining at pre-paid buffet restaurant (not sure if you guys have these in EU, but there's a few places that charge up front in my city). Their model is if people don't like it, they can take their business elsewhere. I'm assuming the owner had dine and dash customers prior, and wanted to play it safe. I'm not saying people try to evade VAT here, but you have to understand from the owner's perspective. Also, a dude above you comments on how they could charge VAT prior to shipping, and I think that's a good too. But at the end of the day, businesses operate in the best of their interest, not the customers'. If you disagree, just take your business elsewhere like the buffet example above, and that will show them. Maybe when they saw the sales drop, they would change their policy. Just my $0.02
The problem is not what is the best interest of the business but of the legality of charging TVA on a product which is not shipped to a different country.
Like I said, VAT can absolutely and should be charged at the time of shipping or be dealt by the shipping company with an invoice, not at the time of purchase.
If you host it for 3 years, you will be out of 20% of the price of the item for 3 years. This money could be invested in another field. If you bought 5 cards, you could have bought 6 instead.
In the meantime, the vendor will have 20% of the price of the item in his books. What happens if the company goes bankrupt ? Do you have to pay VAT another time because the money if not there anymore (if you bought via fpgaland and get it hosted on mineority which are two differents companies)
What happen if mineority goes bankrupt and is unable to ship your card back ? You would have paid 20% more for essentialy nothing.
Do you see the issue ?
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July 21, 2018, 10:47:57 PM
 #879


Your argument reminds me of a couple complaining at pre-paid buffet restaurant (not sure if you guys have these in EU, but there's a few places that charge up front in my city). Their model is if people don't like it, they can take their business elsewhere. I'm assuming the owner had dine and dash customers prior, and wanted to play it safe. I'm not saying people try to evade VAT here, but you have to understand from the owner's perspective. Also, a dude above you comments on how they could charge VAT prior to shipping, and I think that's a good too. But at the end of the day, businesses operate in the best of their interest, not the customers'. If you disagree, just take your business elsewhere like the buffet example above, and that will show them. Maybe when they saw the sales drop, they would change their policy. Just my $0.02
The problem is not what is the best interest of the business but of the legality of charging TVA on a product which is not shipped to a different country.
Like I said, VAT can absolutely and should be charged at the time of shipping or be dealt by the shipping company with an invoice, not at the time of purchase.
If you host it for 3 years, you will be out of 20% of the price of the item for 3 years. This money could be invested in another field. If you bought 5 cards, you could have bought 6 instead.
In the meantime, the vendor will have 20% of the price of the item in his books. What happens if the company goes bankrupt ? Do you have to pay VAT another time because the money if not there anymore (if you bought via fpgaland and get it hosted on mineority which are two differents companies)
What happen if mineority goes bankrupt and is unable to ship your card back ? You would have paid 20% more for essentialy nothing.
Do you see the issue ?


I still do not see how it is illegal since there is no binding contract to keep the cards outside EU. They can always argue because the owner is in EU, so the cards will go there eventually bla...bla..bla...If you think it's illegal, I'd just report them and hear what the authority has to say. In regards to business going bankrupt, you have a good reason there, but the 20% VAT would probably be the last thing I worry about. Anyway, the debate has been going on for longer that I'd like, which was not my intention. If we could shift our focus on legit issues, like productions, software optimizations, ETA and whatnot, that'd be helpful for the community.
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July 22, 2018, 09:07:59 AM
 #880

There was a preorder button that would not do anything every time I'd press it. Now it's turned into an "out of stock", did they become available for just 1 minute or something?

I wasn't expecting anything more than the cards to go to a couple big farms anyway... Decentralization and all that.... But I had a little hope.
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