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Author Topic: ALLMINE INC - FPGA Cryptominer  (Read 48447 times)
gotminer
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June 10, 2018, 01:24:13 AM
 #581

I still don't understand what is the issue for Paypal... You are selling a legitimate product, your customer are purchasing it, it's legal...
What is their legal reasoning for refusing your business ?

PS : will be wiring fund on monday

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.

My biggest issue was, it's so hard to get the right person on the phone.


So why do pre-orders?  Why not start accepting payments when you have them ready to ship?

Ok, I want you to walk back in there and very calmly, very politely tell the risk assessors to fuck off! -Mark Baum
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2112
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June 10, 2018, 02:02:09 AM
 #582

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.
Well, that simple matter is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit . People routinely have been paying that way for importing the produce that haven't even grown yet. I feel weird explaining to the highly educated people what I learned as a kid from the bazaar fruit importer.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
GPUHoarder
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June 10, 2018, 02:25:36 AM
 #583

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.
Well, that simple matter is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit . People routinely have been paying that way for importing the produce that haven't even grown yet. I feel weird explaining to the highly educated people what I learned as a kid from the bazaar fruit importer.

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit. I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen.

With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.
gotminer
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June 10, 2018, 02:48:21 AM
 #584

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.
Well, that simple matter is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit . People routinely have been paying that way for importing the produce that haven't even grown yet. I feel weird explaining to the highly educated people what I learned as a kid from the bazaar fruit importer.

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit. I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen.

With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.

I agree with you, but in turn, buyers take a bigger risk with little concept of expectation.  I had to dig deep to get what I now feel is my expectation.  Not saying that it's wrong, just the way it is.

Ok, I want you to walk back in there and very calmly, very politely tell the risk assessors to fuck off! -Mark Baum
GPUHoarder
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June 10, 2018, 03:31:47 AM
 #585

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.
Well, that simple matter is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit . People routinely have been paying that way for importing the produce that haven't even grown yet. I feel weird explaining to the highly educated people what I learned as a kid from the bazaar fruit importer.

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit. I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen.

With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.

I agree with you, but in turn, buyers take a bigger risk with little concept of expectation.  I had to dig deep to get what I now feel is my expectation.  Not saying that it's wrong, just the way it is.

I definitely understand. Let me know what I can do to help anyone feel comfortable.
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June 10, 2018, 05:03:56 AM
 #586

It's really great to see FPGAs making a comeback, and in a way that's more accessible to individual miners.

I have some technical questions, if I may;
  • It was mentioned in a previous post that the units will come with encryption keys burned in. I'm somewhat familiar with the IP protection mechanisms of previous generation Xilinx devices, so is my understanding correct that these VCU1525's won't load a bitstream unless it's been encrypted using your key?
  • If the above is true, if for whatever reason you had to cease your operation, or are unable to provide devs with continued access to development hardware, would you release these encryption key(s) and any other secrets to prevent future development work on bitstreams for fielded units grinding to a halt?

Thank you both for all your efforts in this.

Kind regards,
David

Was it answered? It's very important question to my mind...
senseless
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June 10, 2018, 05:11:08 AM
 #587

It's really great to see FPGAs making a comeback, and in a way that's more accessible to individual miners.

I have some technical questions, if I may;
  • It was mentioned in a previous post that the units will come with encryption keys burned in. I'm somewhat familiar with the IP protection mechanisms of previous generation Xilinx devices, so is my understanding correct that these VCU1525's won't load a bitstream unless it's been encrypted using your key?
  • If the above is true, if for whatever reason you had to cease your operation, or are unable to provide devs with continued access to development hardware, would you release these encryption key(s) and any other secrets to prevent future development work on bitstreams for fielded units grinding to a halt?

Thank you both for all your efforts in this.

Kind regards,
David

Was it answered? It's very important question to my mind...

Yes, the encryption key will not prevent unencrypted designs from being loaded but will prevent other encrypted designs from being loaded. If you ever did want to run some other encrypted design you would be required to blow the fuse and the same restrictions would be in place. But, for instance, whitefire's unencrypted designs will work just fine.



mineroc
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June 10, 2018, 05:21:32 AM
 #588

What kind of operation is Xilinx running? Can they produce enough volume to bring these down to sub 1k$?  300$?

senseless
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June 10, 2018, 05:22:32 AM
Last edit: June 10, 2018, 07:01:31 AM by senseless
 #589

What kind of operation is Xilinx running? Can they produce enough volume to bring these down to sub 1k$?  300$?

High volumes are not their typical business model. You can consider this them putting their toes in the water. I think they're pretty happy with how things went / are going. I know I'd be if I was them. We'll have to wait to see where it goes from here Smiley

Edit: I should say, volumes high enough to get the price to what we want it are not their typical business model.


lunobird
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June 10, 2018, 07:56:21 AM
 #590

What kind of operation is Xilinx running? Can they produce enough volume to bring these down to sub 1k$?  300$?



Don't have too high hopes.  Your expecting something that hashes 10x more than a 1070ti and uses same wattage for one card to cost the same as a 1070ti? Why would anyone sell it for that cheap with the performance to wattage it can offer.  This type of equipment is not meant for kids.

senseless
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June 10, 2018, 08:01:17 AM
 #591

What kind of operation is Xilinx running? Can they produce enough volume to bring these down to sub 1k$?  300$?



Don't have too high hopes.  Your expecting something that hashes 10x more than a 1070ti and uses same wattage for one card to cost the same as a 1070ti? Why would anyone sell it for that cheap with the performance to wattage it can offer.  This type of equipment is not meant for kids.

There are a lot of reasons.


2112
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June 10, 2018, 01:48:01 PM
 #592

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit.
That statement is patently false. Letters of credit were, are, and will be written for various sums, both lower and higher. It is a mainstay of many industries, not just produce importers.

I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen. With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.
I don't have an inside knowledge of your venture so I can't make any definitive statements.

What I will comment about is one fact: you may think that you can freely mix true and false statements and they will average to "reasonable". No they average to "are you on drugs?" or "what film set did you came from?" or "did you forgot to take your medications?".

This vacillation between heady optimism and dark paranoia in a single person is not only off-putting. It is the reason to raise suspicion among both crypto-currency people and traditional finance people.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
d.v.
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June 10, 2018, 02:23:55 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #593

Their biggest issue is that they're pre-orders and aren't shipping immediately. I completely understand where they're coming from. Don't you? But, It should be a simple matter to find a situation that works for them, works for us, and works for everyone else in the community.
Well, that simple matter is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_credit . People routinely have been paying that way for importing the produce that haven't even grown yet. I feel weird explaining to the highly educated people what I learned as a kid from the bazaar fruit importer.

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit. I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen.

With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.

I agree with you, but in turn, buyers take a bigger risk with little concept of expectation.  I had to dig deep to get what I now feel is my expectation.  Not saying that it's wrong, just the way it is.

I definitely understand. Let me know what I can do to help anyone feel comfortable.

My opinion is that anything in the crypto space is a risk; and sometimes a lot of risk. Even this venture with FPGAs is very risky. Some have already commented that a bunch of us is trusting two faceless forum handles with our money to deliver on nothing more than their words. Of course, GPUHoarder and senseless have done their very best to ease our speculations and that's awesome. It is up to each of us individually to do our own homework, ask questions, and research this technology (and the people behind it) and come up with a personal decision based on our own risk tolerance (as well as our wallets) on whether or not this is worth the risk.

As with anything new, there is always risk and when it comes to crypto, always remember: only play with money you're wiling to lose or don't play at all

On a side note, I'm already in for 2 units and possibly a 3rd if the paypal fiasco irons out... and if these units become paper weights then I've got no one to blame but myself however I believe in this technology and the potential of where it will go so I'm in this for the long run. Look at how the Antminer Z9 Mini saga has been running... you want to talk risk, go see how that's progressing with price and FUD against the equihash network, plus a 50k-sols-miner was just announced by Innosilicon a couple days ago for $10k... all those people with pre-orders for Z9 Minis are shaking their heads (me included) but that's how the game is played.

In short, pay to play and if you lose, don't complain. *grabbing popcorn and enjoying the show*
GPUHoarder
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June 10, 2018, 02:47:08 PM
 #594

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit.
That statement is patently false. Letters of credit were, are, and will be written for various sums, both lower and higher. It is a mainstay of many industries, not just produce importers.

I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen. With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.
I don't have an inside knowledge of your venture so I can't make any definitive statements.

What I will comment about is one fact: you may think that you can freely mix true and false statements and they will average to "reasonable". No they average to "are you on drugs?" or "what film set did you came from?" or "did you forgot to take your medications?".

This vacillation between heady optimism and dark paranoia in a single person is not only off-putting. It is the reason to raise suspicion among both crypto-currency people and traditional finance people.


Every statement I made is true. I offered a letter of credit - they required upfront. I’m not sure what your angle is here, but there’s no conspiracy for you to play on here.
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June 10, 2018, 03:00:41 PM
 #595

When do you expect to start shipping ?

GPUHoarder
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June 10, 2018, 03:12:13 PM
 #596

When do you expect to start shipping ?



I don’t want to overquote - August.
OhGodAGirl
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June 10, 2018, 03:15:56 PM
 #597

Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on extremely limited supply chains on letters of credit.
That statement is patently false. Letters of credit were, are, and will be written for various sums, both lower and higher. It is a mainstay of many industries, not just produce importers.

I had to front it, and I can’t front it through August with no concept of demand numbers. This was not a profit taking venture, I’m trying very hard to make sure these cards make it into the community without price gouging that was about to happen. With out that effort, they would have continued to produce small batches and introduced heavy lead times and price increases. I took the risk off them, everyone here benefits. Simple as that.
I don't have an inside knowledge of your venture so I can't make any definitive statements.

What I will comment about is one fact: you may think that you can freely mix true and false statements and they will average to "reasonable". No they average to "are you on drugs?" or "what film set did you came from?" or "did you forgot to take your medications?".

This vacillation between heady optimism and dark paranoia in a single person is not only off-putting. It is the reason to raise suspicion among both crypto-currency people and traditional finance people.


I'd just like to pipe up for a moment.

The hardware industry is very, very different to other industries. It's upfront, capital intensive, and companies like NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, Xilinx and TSMC don't take 'letters of credit', which may as well be a credit card with chargebacks.

The hardware industry doesn't like risk.
2112
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June 10, 2018, 03:18:28 PM
 #598

and if these units become paper weights then I've got no one to blame but myself however I believe in this technology and the potential of where it will go
No well-designed FPGA board became paperweight ever. There's a quite thriving secondary market in them, they have so many different uses.

The only FPGA boards that had fallen badly in price either:

1) didn't have any memory attached and no way to attach memory
2) didn't have sensible communication channels to get the data in and out

Historically on this forum most FPGA talk was about ngzhang's Icarus & Lancelot and Enterpoint's Cairnsmore. Those are the quite perfect examples of not being well-designed. In particular Cairnsmore had problems with internal clock distribution between the 5 FPGAs on the board.

Every statement I made is true. I offered a letter of credit - they required upfront. I’m not sure what your angle is here, but there’s no conspiracy for you to play on here.
I have no angle here (or "I have no alpaca in this race", as they say on this board.)

I'm just observing and it is quite obvious that "I offered a letter of credit" and "Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on letters of credit" are not even nearly synonymous and you somehow suddenly switched sides between yourself and Xilinx. This is a very definition of a word "shifty" as it is used in business negotiation. It is quite obvious that you hiding something material and they must have found this while negotiating the terms. If you habitually talk in a business meetings like you post here on this forum then I completely don't wonder why they get suspicious, require prepay for everything and count their fingers after shaking hand with you.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
i_like_bits
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June 10, 2018, 03:37:36 PM
 #599


I have no angle here (or "I have no alpaca in this race", as they say on this board.)

I'm just observing and it is quite obvious that "I offered a letter of credit" and "Companies do not spin up $20M worth of product on letters of credit" are not even nearly synonymous and you somehow suddenly switched sides between yourself and Xilinx. This is a very definition of a word "shifty" as it is used in business negotiation. It is quite obvious that you hiding something material and they must have found this while negotiating the terms. If you habitually talk in a business meetings like you post here on this forum then I completely don't wonder why they get suspicious, require prepay for everything and count their fingers after shaking hand with you.


Resorting to semantics and ad hominem. You don't seem to possess the business acumen that you think you do.
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June 10, 2018, 03:43:22 PM
Last edit: June 10, 2018, 04:09:40 PM by 2112
 #600

I'd just like to pipe up for a moment.

The hardware industry is very, very different to other industries. It's upfront, capital intensive, and companies like NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, Xilinx and TSMC don't take 'letters of credit', which may as well be a credit card with chargebacks.

The hardware industry doesn't like risk. It's capital intensive.
This is just plain bullshit, based on misunderstanding between consumer finance (credit card) and business finance (letter of credit). My bet is that you didn't even click through to skim the Wikipedia page. Such strawman wouldn't even be worth further comment, but for the benefit of other readers I will comment:

The semiconductor manufacturing industry is capital intensive, therefore they are heavy users of credit (and other classical, non-crypto, financial instruments), but they use it very intelligently. This has nothing to do with consumer finance chargebacks or anything related to retail finance.

I had personal experience working with Actel, Xilinx, and some less well known names from Taiwan, Malaysia & Korea. Everything was financed with some form of credit, although as an engineer I wasn't really involved in the financial details beside general interest.

I think my former colleague summed it the best: "Rectoscopy is a less invasive procedure that what you will go through with drafting and acceptance of a letter of credit."

Resorting to semantics and ad hominem. You don't seem to possess the business acumen that you think you do.
Thanks for the comment. I really appreciate it now. Back then a coworker showed me the "show me the money" scene from the "Jerry Maquire" movie and I couldn't find it either funny or educational. But now I understand how, while an artistic exaggeration, it is a perfect representation of certain type of business dealings. Some find it offensive, but it is just short and to the point.

Edit: The point being: people don't like when you burn the candle from both ends.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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