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Author Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS  (Read 1053139 times)
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voephilis
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September 29, 2014, 07:19:45 AM
 #8661

what does rofo say to those numbers?
I don`t have the needed knowledge about PoS so I believe you all, who know what to do will decide correct Smiley
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September 29, 2014, 08:07:15 AM
 #8662

More idea sharing please! Maybe something will be possible and make a nice feature for nobl Smiley

If NOBL wants a new type of PoS to separate itself from the rest - go for a variable interest rate based a new parameter - maybe called resident age or something. The longer you hold noble within a certain coin address without exchanging it elsewhere, the more interest those coins gain. I would say give it an exponential equation and then cap it at a certain amount. This way the most benefit is from holding very long.

While coin supply will never be capped, if you constantly record data and track inflation, these parameters can be tweaked to ensure reasonable overall coin inflation rate. And this should be made clear up front that the first 1-2 years are experimental years and that the interest rates will be tweaked periodically (say every 6 months). Then you can work out how to get to 5 billion in the remaining 3-4 years.

With a market cap of $50K, you have a lot more room to look into making some drastic changes. Smiley

Anyway, just my idea. I would love to see some coin do this and I don't believe any PoS coin yet has.

that even if nice idea maybe isnt what im asking for Wink
u dont want to wait another 6 months for POS
so we go with DMD POS framework and your POS settings

here are the details about DMD POS
http://bit.diamonds/community/index.php/topic,46.msg376.html#msg376

in case of NOBLE POS the framework will be the same
the amount of coins is different and the POS reward rates and triggers can be different.

some kind of dynamic adjustment is part of DMD trigger rules
because we as only coin on market use total coins as triggers and not blocknumber

this way our triggers always get fired at the moment
we want no matter if more or less people did POS than expected


lets give ya a example how NOBLE POS could set up

early adopter reward phase
up to 3 billion coins POS reward 100%
then a moderate POS coin rollout
up to 4 billion coins POS reward 30%
up to 5 billion coins POS reward 20%
up to 6 billion coins POS reward 10%
finally a endless POS secure network and minimal inflation rate
after  6 billion coins POS reward  1%

this is less than half of example mintcoin coin amount
and mintcoin is able still hold his place in BTC markets

i wouldnt aim for any higher final coin amount

but maybe a smaller one if u aim for 4 billion at last 1% trigger it wouldnt hurt too
this way the triggers before must be adjusted to something like

early adopter reward phase
up to 2.5 billion coins POS reward 100%
then a moderate POS coin rollout
up to 3 billion coins POS reward 30%
up to 3.5 billion coins POS reward 20%
up to 4 billion coins POS reward 10%
finally a endless POS secure network and minimal inflation rate
after  4 billion coins POS reward  1%

basical i prefer that second model
to be a single digit satoshi coin on market is a difficult position
(if only trade jumps of 10% are possible....)
lower total coins amount can help leave that spot

so beside think about revolutionary new POS ideas
lets decide on the adjustments u want for NOBLE out of the available POS ruleset

the Diamond way is integrate "revolutionary" stuff when its proven as part of wallet "evolution"

and NOBLE community is sure same mindset security and stability first





Thanks for spending time to help Noble out, we all really appreciate it Smiley

I think this is a fine idea if it means that it won't need to be completely rewritten. I don't want to wait another 6 months...

It is a little over my head too, but how long would each of the phases last approximately? I guess it all depends on how many people are staking.
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September 29, 2014, 08:10:49 AM
 #8663

Whatever the PoS reward level, there should be some dynamic in it IMHO to ensure enough wallets are staking at all times (otherwise, the network will just fork or stall, or both). This means f.i.

  • reward should increase when PoS diff goes lower (incentive wallets to stake!), and decrease when it goes higher
  • reward should be higher for wallets 24/7 than those online once in a month

Wallets, especially large wallets, that come online once in a month represent a significant fork risk, while wallets that stake 24/7 ensure stability and security of the blockchain. So anything that can discourage people from staking irregularly is desirable.

To reward 24/7 wallets, the coin age could be clamped in terms of PoS stake, f.i. by considering that coins older than 7 days are considered 7 days old in terms of staking. This means that if you stake only once every 4 weeks, you'll only get 1/4th the normal interest, but if you stake once every week, you'll get the full interest.

Lack of staking wallets is the Achilles heel of PoS, and this is especially true with a fast blockchain.

Quote
to be a single digit satoshi coin on market is a difficult position
(if only trade jumps of 10% are possible....)
lower total coins amount can help leave that spot

Very true.

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September 29, 2014, 10:20:27 AM
 #8664

ensure enough wallets are staking at all times (otherwise, the network will just fork or stall, or both).

the wallet will be hybrid POW/POS
POS function is secure and reward stakeholders
in emergency cases like DMD had once it can run POS only too
but the goal is that transaction speed is gurantee by POW
security is from POW/POS hybrid secure blockchain mechanism

u cant compare that to pure POS coins
they have other requirements

pure POW and pure POS is easyer to maintain

but we not here to have a easy to maintain wallet

we here to create the best security and redundant systems that keep coin running even if there
is a POW or POS problem happening that let that part of coin generation stuck

the big advantage noblecoin get by share wallet code with DMD Diamond is
u have active development non stop

what we talking here is way more than only enable POS for noblecoin

rofo try to do great stuff in area of ecommerce
diamond try to create the best bitcoin origin POW/POS hybrid coin
and in my opinion we very close to fulfill that claim

together both teams can create a great future for both coins




 
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September 29, 2014, 11:17:55 AM
 #8665

pure POW and pure POS is easyer to maintain

Well there are a couple other coins I host an explorer for that are both PoS + PoW, and IME it shares the vulnerabilities of both approaches :/

The "PoS whale wallet" is issue is still there if few are staking, and the PoW difficulty is too low to ensure security on its own.
This means that PoW+PoS is still very vulnerable to fork in a subnet, which can happen unwillingly by a few of enthusiasts or if the main chain miners go offline for a reason or another.

If you don't have enough 24/7 staking wallets, the only security of the blockchain comes from PoW which is at a very low difficulty, thus the attack is simple:
  • setup a wallet on the "main" chain
  • prepare a few wallets for staking on a subnet, but leave them locked (not staking, but synchronized)
  • when staking diff goes low enough, disconnect the subnet, activate miners on the subnet chain
  • spend from your wallet on the main chain
  • when subnet has gotten far enough ahead of the main chain (won't take long on a fast blockchain), reconnect it
  • subnet fork wins, spend again

If you don't have enough wallets staking or miners mining, the above can be performed during a lull in the staking or mining, by DDOS'ing the few PoW miners, or just automatically by monitoring the blockchain 24/7 for an opportunity.

Also since PoW makes the chain progress, people become unaware that limited staking is taking place -- that's one of the reason why I added PoS extraction stats in my explorers btw -- when only a couple wallets are staking, the blockchain is very vulnerable, if those wallets lose connectivity for whatever reason, the chain is essentially open to attack.

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September 29, 2014, 01:12:22 PM
Last edit: September 29, 2014, 02:10:14 PM by cryptonit
 #8666


If you don't have enough 24/7 staking wallets, the only security of the blockchain comes from PoW which is at a very low difficulty, thus the attack is simple:


trust me we spend lot time into both problems u describe
and there will be foundation run 24/7 staking wallets
and the POW will be not diamond or noblecoin only
but a merged mining for all coins (at stage two at stage one merged mining wont be implemented)
of the diamond groestl merge mine family
and we will make sure there is always at least one high pow reward coin part of the family and create POW security for all coins

but its always good get feedback from people with experience in the business
hope u see that we also have experience

also ur hidden chain attack wont work against our checkpoint
the hidden chain just missing the checkpoint timestamps
no "good" wallet will sync block from hostile wallets

in the timewindow where a hidden chain can merge again with main chain
following would happen

the hidden chain wallets would reorg all their blocks and accept the main chain as truth

tested and proven

did reorg over 400 blocks throw them away and stick with main chain

i hope u understand diamond and its code base is one of the most attacked ones
and survive all that made our code be very restistent now against all kind of attacks

immunity dont exist but a dedicated dev team can overcome all future "challenges" too

 
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September 29, 2014, 03:23:38 PM
 #8667

and the POW will be not diamond or noblecoin only
but a merged mining for all coins (at stage two at stage one merged mining wont be implemented)
of the diamond groestl merge mine family
and we will make sure there is always at least one high pow reward coin part of the family and create POW security for all coins

Good to hear, I had missed that point!

also ur hidden chain attack wont work against our checkpoint
the hidden chain just missing the checkpoint timestamps
no "good" wallet will sync block from hostile wallets

Is it going to be a centralized automatic checkpoint or a consensus-based one?

immunity dont exist but a dedicated dev team can overcome all future "challenges" too

Agreed, the defense of a crypto is as much in the eyes looking over it as in its cryptography/protocol!

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September 29, 2014, 03:56:41 PM
 #8668

DMD finished wallet code maintainance
next project is noblecoin transformation towards POS (with a small groestl algo POW part)

i guess when u have input for jason to consider
before final pos specs are designed its now the time to write it

u could start ur thinking with 2 numbers
whats the max amount of noble that should be rolled out

and how long the timeframe of rollout should be

consider big amount of coins could lead to lose BTC/Noble tradepairs
and a to fast coin rollout is to high inflation

so i would like u to think about that numbers and give feedback

a true 175% POS in my opinion is out of scope or only very short term as reward for loyal longterm stakeholder

example of answers on this 2 numbers from DMD would be:

4.3 million
30 years

noblecoin could go like
5 billion
5 years

because ur setup is way more in direction of daily use and not bagholder value growth longterm pos rewards

We are glad to hear all of this and we all appreciate your willingness to help us.

Do you know what the timeframe will be for the POS/POW roll-out to be ready?
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September 29, 2014, 04:17:57 PM
 #8669

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/charity/about.html/ref=pe_830720_114782360_smi_em_wel_ft_abt

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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September 29, 2014, 07:07:27 PM
Last edit: September 29, 2014, 09:12:27 PM by cryptonit
 #8670

/quote]
We are glad to hear all of this and we all appreciate your willingness to help us.
Do you know what the timeframe will be for the POS/POW roll-out to be ready?

i guess its clear we in the phase to define coin specs

u dont start asking

"are we soon there"

when its not even decided where the car is driving  Cool

we will start analyzing noble blockchain for possible difficulties
in combination with new wallet code

the task here is basically 3 parts

move a blockchain onto another wallet base
change mining algorithm
enable pos

three tasks we did solve already for diamond
so we sure the best team that can help noblecoin in this journey
still any infos about how long it will take are speculations

i posted in a earlier post

estimate 1 month for a pos wallet

and another 1 month for merge mining ability

and i also said 1 month can easy become 3 months if obstacles appear in the process

people might ask how expensive is our help

and the answer is all we asking for is jason include diamond in his eCommerce activities

side by side with noble

so when u wana support us support him

 
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September 29, 2014, 11:32:24 PM
 #8671

Nice read on all the ideas!
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September 29, 2014, 11:38:05 PM
 #8672

Is it going to be a centralized automatic checkpoint or a consensus-based one?
centralized automatic

 
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September 30, 2014, 01:17:27 AM
 #8673

Is it going to be a centralized automatic checkpoint or a consensus-based one?

Consensus based gives a degree of true decentralisation, but at the same time introduces new risks and requires much bigger setup.

We are not at the stage yet to go this way.


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September 30, 2014, 06:33:34 AM
 #8674

Is it going to be a centralized automatic checkpoint or a consensus-based one?
Consensus based gives a degree of true decentralisation, but at the same time introduces new risks and requires much bigger setup.

We are not at the stage yet to go this way.

Noted!

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September 30, 2014, 03:15:29 PM
 #8675

DMD finished wallet code maintainance
next project is noblecoin transformation towards POS (with a small groestl algo POW part)


groestl is hot enough now with newest kernels


Yep it's getting hotter with Pallas's miner optimisation. However, he did decent job releasing it to everyone, as there were custom built closed source mining software and secret pools taking an advantage of poorly optimised open source miners.

Grostl even though it's not as cool as it used to be it's still the best option for us. It's secure (SHA-3) as it's single hash and not a mash up of several ones. It's also ASIC friendly which means that at some point we will see purpose built hardware securing the network.
It's also easily adaptable for low powered devices as it doesn't require much memory so one can run his imagination wild of potential future implementations.

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September 30, 2014, 06:56:28 PM
Last edit: October 01, 2014, 12:29:25 AM by cryptonit
 #8676

DMD finished wallet code maintainance
next project is noblecoin transformation towards POS (with a small groestl algo POW part)


groestl is hot enough now with newest kernels


hot is no issue with gtx750ti and its the only GPU able earn its power cost and more

mining with other GPU can work only if u have free power or industrial power tarif somehow

groestl is very good performing on gtx750ti 7.5 mhash with 50w each card with system opverhead a 6 GPU rig make 45 mhash with 400w at the wall


coinwarez
--------------------------------------
Groestl
45 MH/s
400 Watts
 0.10 $/kWh

$1.48 /
$0.52 earnings
$0.96 for electricity
--------------------------------------

try that with any AMD card u lose money

(thats not a groestl issue that a issue for all kind of GPU mining same as asics get outdated very fast
its GPU with bad hashrate/powerconsumption ratio are just outdated now)

 
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Scarce✦✦✦✦ Valuable ✦✦✦✦ Secure ✦                     ▬ a collector experience ▬                
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October 01, 2014, 06:24:51 AM
 #8677

I'm kinda done with mining nowadays. It got me into crypto, but the heat and noise were just too much for the small reward Wink
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October 01, 2014, 06:33:14 AM
 #8678

Sounds great so far! I can`t contribute a lot but if it comes to spread the word I will be in!
The way to use PoW and PoS is awesome! I think it will bring a lot of new investors.

So good job so far Smiley Can`t wait to stake!
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October 01, 2014, 07:46:59 PM
 #8679

Up to 6000 Free NOBL for 20 seconds of your time!
http://www.cryptotycoons.com/action-campaigns/noblecoin-proof-action/

Forgot to mention, Everyone is paid out for the campaign as of last night!
Keep the entries coming! Spread the good word! Make NOBL grow!

Still getting a lot of sockpuppets?
I'm bringing the campaign to at close 6PM EST today. Most of the community members have already claimed their share, and so most  the new entries are duplicate entries / sockpuppet accounts!
If you havent claimed your share yet, get to it! =)

I'm sure we'll be bringing it back, but this initial campaign has more than run its course.
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October 01, 2014, 09:29:23 PM
 #8680

Up to 6000 Free NOBL for 20 seconds of your time!
http://www.cryptotycoons.com/action-campaigns/noblecoin-proof-action/

Forgot to mention, Everyone is paid out for the campaign as of last night!
Keep the entries coming! Spread the good word! Make NOBL grow!

Still getting a lot of sockpuppets?
I'm bringing the campaign to at close 6PM EST today. Most of the community members have already claimed their share, and so most  the new entries are duplicate entries / sockpuppet accounts!
If you havent claimed your share yet, get to it! =)

I'm sure we'll be bringing it back, but this initial campaign has more than run its course.

Good call. I think has been a success, thanks for your effort Smiley

I reckon we should bring it back when we go PoS
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