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Author Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS  (Read 1011564 times)
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January 13, 2015, 11:29:30 AM
 #9441

Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far:

1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402667.msg9096942#msg9096942
2. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10%
3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange.
4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 
5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do."

Here's my $.02 on each:
[1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block.
[2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS.
[3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos.
[4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down.
[5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world.

Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points.
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January 13, 2015, 11:33:59 AM
 #9442

I have started working on a PoS wallet for Noblecoin. This is just the very beginning so please do not expect miracles anytime soon. Wink

However I would like to ask everyone on this thread what is your opinion on PoS parameters which should be chosen. Feel free to elaborate why you think those are best for us. Maybe someone did research into PoS parameters and would like to share results? I would love to hear that!

1. I think we should have very moderate to small inflation rate at PoS stage. No "High PoS".
With PoW, when calculated year-to-year starting from now (1.8 bln + another 2.6 bln in 365 days), the PoW inflation now is 144%.
For PoS, in my opinion maybe 5%-10% a year would be good. The highest PoS coins have seen a big hype (see HYP), but then the fall is very dramatic, because of the enormous supply.

2. I think we can make a transition to PoS at a "round number" like 2.0 or 2.1 bln NOBL (depending when will we manage to have a running PoS wallet)/

3. I think we should distribute new PoS NOBLes using the fairglu'd automated script method on some clone of 100% premined PoS coin.

4. IMO it would be good to divide the money units (coins) in circulation by 5 or 10 to avoid 1-digit satoshi price range (Ratio 5:1 or 10:1. In this scenario, 1 mln old NOBL would equal 200k or 100k of new PoS NOBL, distributed evenly to all existing addresses, redeemable at any time in the future from your old wallet.dat).



I agree with 5-10%. No high pos.

Just keep the stake rates steady along that line.

I personally believe 5% to be more then enough. We are going for a good, professional crypto currency here. 5% is more then plenty for inflation.

I think slightly higher. At 5% it isn't worth leaving a computer on staking IMO.

I think rofo decided on 12% from what I can remember.

Indeed 5% seems too low to effectively secure the network. 12% better, and possibly even a bit higher (i.e. 20% - 30% range); in the short term network security (staking) is more important than inflation.

Also pls consider a system of constant amount of coins like Ethereum so that inflation decreases over time (as opposed to constant inflation, which is the case with a constant POS rate, even if it's low...).


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January 13, 2015, 11:45:01 AM
 #9443

Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points.

Thanks for the summary!

To have people staking, the max stake age and max stake amount are important, i.e you want to reward someone leaving a wallet with 100 coins 24/7 probably more than someone with 10000 coins that stakes once per month: the first will actively defend and support the network, the second may put it at risk. Under PoS, stakers replace miners, it should be worth it staking even if you are not super-rich.

Joe is trying to achieve secure PoS with Magi, it's not simple, you have to balance security with incentive and everything, and there is no magic bullet, but it's a goal worth achieving IMHO.

For 3, keeping a portion of PoW, at least initially would help, if the miners/pools follow, the consensus on the new chain will be easier to achieve.

Yes 4 has risks associated with it, and being a "penny stock" also has risks. Another area where there is no magic bullet.

And finally about the 100% PoS initially, this might be complicated once you factor compound interest, network stability issues, etc. It was discussed with coin age as a limiter (which would have skirted the previous issues), but if the old blockchain is not ported over, all coins will be "new".

That said, I'm a very minor Noble holder.

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January 13, 2015, 01:09:21 PM
 #9444

Thanks for the summary and thought myeagleflies.

I kind of think the new PoS tech idea might be what is needed to kick start Noble a little. I know it goes against the grain a bit, but I remember at one time we were going for a very high PoS rate, which was considered cutting edge at the time.

So option number 5 gets my vote. IMO we need something to draw attention to us and get us on the first page of coinmarketcap even if it is just temporary it will draw in some new people and hopefully investors.
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January 13, 2015, 03:02:20 PM
 #9445

@rofo

I sent you a PM to see if you are up for a discussion (voice on something like skype or I can call you at a phone number, up to you) about some tech that could help add physical support to just about any coin, however Noble would be the one in current existence I would rather support than any other honestly, from our dealings in the past you have definitely proven yourself beyond what anyone else in the industry has up till now, (not saying anyone else is not out there, just saying I have not had personal dealings with anyone myself that is as stand up as you)

you can message me here, or on skype (architct is the USER name there, and should show up as Thomas A. Anderson when searching that name) same name can be used on google+ too, just look for a guy in dark goggles and a tophat, you remember my goggles I am sure, so...

to all others, if this idea I have and tech I am working on, is brought together you can expect to see the fecal matter hit the rotary blades in the crypto-world lol.

"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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January 13, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
 #9446

Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far:

1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402667.msg9096942#msg9096942
2. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10%
3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange.
4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 
5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do."

Here's my $.02 on each:
[1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block.
[2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS.
[3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos.
[4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down.
[5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world.

Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points.

I am pretty sure you guys are far more knowledagble about the details than I am, still here are my thoughts:

We kind of have the opportunity for a restart. Lets use that opportunity to somehow create a little hype to attract some new buyers. I dont mean to artificially try to pump this coin, thats somthing completely different, just to be clear.

The interest rate is one opportunity. There are people out there who are attracted by high interest rates. Why not try to attract them. Start with a high interest rate (100%), but lower it rather quickly to something in the 10-20% region. Dont go much lower, inflation is not the main issue but network security. I never stake my bc for example (1% POS).

I cant comment much about the coin swap, but if there is the possibility to do it without an exchange, thats better. Coins at an exchange are always a risk that should be avoided if it is possible. If its way more complicated, go the exchange way. This cant take months from now on. Might be a desission between the safe and the easy (exchange) way. Not sure.

A 10:1 or so swap seems a bit unnessecary to me. Sure, if a coin trades in the 1-5 sats region, the "real price" is hard to see as any buy/sell leads to a 20% or more change in the marketcap. However if noble trades in that region in a few weeks from now for a prolonged period of time, it could be safely called dead anyway. And if BTC dies, this world comes to an end anyway  Wink

I cant comment much about the xmg POS system. I would have to read about it first. If its good and can be used as another selling point, which is bitterly needed, go for it.
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January 13, 2015, 03:34:07 PM
 #9447

@rofo

I sent you a PM to see if you are up for a discussion (voice on something like skype or I can call you at a phone number, up to you) about some tech that could help add physical support to just about any coin, however Noble would be the one in current existence I would rather support than any other honestly, from our dealings in the past you have definitely proven yourself beyond what anyone else in the industry has up till now, (not saying anyone else is not out there, just saying I have not had personal dealings with anyone myself that is as stand up as you)

you can message me here, or on skype (architct is the USER name there, and should show up as Thomas A. Anderson when searching that name) same name can be used on google+ too, just look for a guy in dark goggles and a tophat, you remember my goggles I am sure, so...

to all others, if this idea I have and tech I am working on, is brought together you can expect to see the fecal matter hit the rotary blades in the crypto-world lol.

Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message.

Im really curious about your idea now.. Wink
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January 13, 2015, 03:44:19 PM
 #9448

Hype and high interest rate will be bad for coin in the long term and good for short term only players. Probably.

About POS-II you can read here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0
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January 13, 2015, 03:52:37 PM
 #9449

--snip--

Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message.

Im really curious about your idea now.. Wink

yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively Smiley

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January 13, 2015, 04:22:31 PM
 #9450

--snip--

Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message.

Im really curious about your idea now.. Wink

yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively Smiley

Hi morphtrust,

rofo is taking a much needed break from crypto at the moment. Hopefully he will reply to you in due course, but if you feel like you need to discuss your idea (and we are very interested in it) either PM eagleflies, myself, voephilisI or kresu or join us in #noblecoin on IRC Smiley
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January 13, 2015, 06:39:15 PM
 #9451

Let's gather PoS related ideas which were proposed so far:

1. [voephilis] Use PoS parameters which were considered in Oct. Interest rate starts at 100% then is being lowered several times until it reaches 1%.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402667.msg9096942#msg9096942
2. [Boreiv, kresuk] Use same PoS parameters which Rofo considered recently with interest rate 5-10%
3. [fairglu] Switch to PoS without using an exchange.
4. [kresuk] Use swap rate of 5:1 or 10:1 e.g. for 5/10 current coins people get 1 new "pos" coin. 
5. [voephilisI] Joe, the dev of Coin Magi is willing to help. His message: "I can experiment the hybrid PoW/PoS like XMG, but it's also fine with the pure PoS; I strongly recommend XMG's PoS-II, it's more safe compared to the implementation of PoS 2.0 by blackcoin and much more network activities triggered by PoS-II comparing with the PoSV of REDD as it advertised. Feel free to let me know what I can do."

Here's my $.02 on each:
[1] Looks good to me. We are already close to 2 billions coins so the 100% interest rate would be working just at the very beginning. This could work by attracting people to stake just after the switch and at least some of them will continue to do so even with lower interest rate. Also bear in mind that interest rate is not the only PoS parameter available. We could also cap max reward per block.
[2] I think 5% is too low. 10% is OK. The problem may be to find people interested in keeping their wallets open all the time which is important since this is how the network is secured in PoS.
[3] This is interesting because we can do the switch without relying on external parties. Also decide freely what swap rate to choose and so on. However if we follow this route there will be two noblecoins in existence. So in fact we will still need to talk with exchanges either to de-list the old noblecoin or ask them to add new noblecoin-pos.
[4] The idea of having less coins is to push the price higher hoping that with swap rate 10:1 price also goes 10 times higher e.g. to 70 SAT now. However there is risk people who are not actively looking at Noble will treat increase in price as pump and in the end price may end up lower than 10 times higher. So in the end market cap of Noble may go down.
[5] This is most revolutionary idea. Switch to new version of PoS potentially avoiding some pitfalls related to the well known PoS which is used by many coins. This sounds good. However by choosing this path we change drastically Noblecoin's image. What I mean by this is Rofo chose 'stable yet boring route' and this attracted all of us here. This is what usually people in traditional finance like. To have something you can rely on even if it produces lower returns. I am not sure if making such a bold move would be good long term. There is much higher risk that hard fork will be needed if serious issues are found in the new PoS code. Short term it should be good as it is always easier to advertise bold moves in crypto world.

Please share your thoughts. At this point I do not like [4] but would like to further discuss remaining points.

I would like to see #5 happen. For NOBL to be one of the first POS II coins would push it forward quite a bit I believe. Our algorithm is more important than we think and by changing with the times faster we will surely get more exposure and more financial backing of sorts (which, lets face it, is necessary). Not to mention it seems secure and stable.

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January 13, 2015, 07:00:05 PM
 #9452

--snip--

Usually the fastest way to contact him is pm or IRC private message.

Im really curious about your idea now.. Wink

yep that is why it stated that I sent him a PM already lol. as for the idea, it will be coming to fruition either way, but I would love to use it to help out the most "noble" coin as well as change so many other things too, that it will inherently effect positively Smiley

Hi morphtrust,

rofo is taking a much needed break from crypto at the moment. Hopefully he will reply to you in due course, but if you feel like you need to discuss your idea (and we are very interested in it) either PM eagleflies, myself, voephilisI or kresu or join us in #noblecoin on IRC Smiley

his email:
info@jasonlcurby.com

Thought there was his telephon number, too. but I can't find it anymore.

who's info is the email addy for? Rofo?

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January 13, 2015, 07:24:52 PM
 #9453

message sent through that channel as well lol

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January 13, 2015, 08:49:18 PM
 #9454

guys, I just got an answer from Joe, the dev of Coin Magi, who is willing to help. He developed a PoS II which seems to be far better and safer!

Here you can find some info about Magi and it's PoS II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0

Pls discuss this option! I will be back in some hours Smiley

Sounds interesting. Be careful not to have too many people working on a pos fork now, otherwise you may end up with several wallets and disappointed helping hands.

If you guys need help from our great dev Joe, just ask him.
He is a very nice guy!


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January 13, 2015, 09:16:55 PM
 #9455

You and your community are welcome!
So just sent Joelao95 a pm.
Know he is very busy at the moment with the standalone payment gateway for Magi.
But think he always will take a look and might find the time to help your nice community.


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January 14, 2015, 12:00:33 AM
 #9456

I think we should prioritize on the security aspect and time constraints. We need some form of POS soon as possible, and it doesn't have to be a pos 2.0 depending on its success possibility.

Due to past experiences of difficulties, we should focus on immediate concerns. A developer/programmer able to get started on building a pos wallet with 5-10% (I would settle on 7.5%, even 10%).

Too low stake will ensure there is little incentive for securing the network. 10% at most seems like a valid compromise.
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January 14, 2015, 12:29:41 AM
 #9457

NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. Smiley I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions.

Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options:

#1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run.

#2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%).

I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place.


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January 14, 2015, 12:51:15 AM
 #9458

NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. Smiley I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions.

Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options:

#1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run.

#2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%).

I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place.

The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world.

I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on.
NorrisK
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January 14, 2015, 07:04:59 AM
 #9459

NOBL community, this is Joe from XMG. I must be frank that I'm actually a fan of NOBL. Smiley I am glad people like PoS-II; the following post has most of the details regarding the PoS-II: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 feel free to let me know if you want to know more or any suggestions.

Specifically I want to talk about the interest; two options:

#1: low interest, APR never greater than 5%. As someone already pointed out, high interest rate may work in a short term but not good in the long run. Decentralization could be the issue for high-interest PoS, because some people tend to stock coin to gain more rewards, and this fact will make those people who can't gain enough coins to stake tend to sell their coins (there is saying PoS coin's price gets dilution), you know what will happen then. While this is not an obvious consequence, but might end up with that in the long run.

#2: dynamic interest depending on the time (I suggest depending on the network weight too); maybe something like the PoW mining using reward reduction scheme, example: APR0 at 1st month, APR0 * r (r < 1) for 2nd month, APR0 * r^2 for 3rd month, and so on until getting to the final level (e.g., < 5%).

I give my vote to option #1. NOBL doesn't need to attract more people, cause it's already notable. It's right that high interest will attract newcomers at the beginning, but we likely see a day they are going with a dumping left behind even big hurt to the coin. Staking should not be the main reason for one holding coins, if they do, they will dump sooner or later. Also, I'd like to put the fairness of coin distribution at the first place.

The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world.

I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on.

I agree with This.
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January 14, 2015, 07:55:56 AM
 #9460

--snip--



The issue has been discussed in circles over and over again - I agree that higher interest vs low interest pros and cons become less relevant with time. The primary issue is actual usage and adoption which cannot happen without some form of mainstream recognition and connections to the real financial world.

I would support #1, with exact % between 5 and 10% that we can agree on.

this is exactly why I was reaching out to Rofo. Hopefully I can get a dialog going with him and others about how we could realize this process.

"Violence, is the last refuge of the incompetent."
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
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