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Author Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS  (Read 1011505 times)
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January 19, 2015, 12:20:16 AM
 #9501

For those who ask for my permission, blessing or opinion I don't really have much to say. My stance was always reduced rewards/merge-mining with DOGE/LTC and not touching PoS due to huge security concerns. The PoS drive began with the community 'democratic' vote so I didn't feel like the dictator of a decentralized coin. It's a shame I couldn't get delivery of PoS sorted which is why I felt it best in the community hands. I'd advise a real vote in IRC and for those ultimately chosen to determine the future of NOBL to really understand the technology/industry future and care about things more important than short-medium term price/position protection. Good luck with your choices.

Good call. Will call an irc vote asap.
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January 19, 2015, 02:25:35 AM
 #9502

I am not concerned about attacks with significant amounts of coins. Big holders have to spend a lot to purchase these coins. It is unlikely someone will be willing to invest heavily into a coin just to attack it.
This is about right; there could be many possibilities to make it happen though, for example, unintentional staking with big amount because of the "greed", let alone pool staking is happening. More or less this is a security hole.

Joe, I would like to understand how Magi Coin's PoS works, could you tell roughly how many coins will be minted by:

- wallet with 1 Magi Coin
- wallet with 10 Magi Coins
- 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 coins?

Let us presume these wallets are online all the time for a month.
It's a bit difficult to estimate a month staking. In general, reward = coinage * APR / 365. To be simple, coinage is about linearly increasing with staking days (within the first four days). As an example, 100 XMG staking gets reward in the 3rd day, then reward = (100*3) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.021 XMG; 1000 XMG will get reward within half day: (100*0.5) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.036 XMG. For 10000, 100000 coins in staking barely gets reward. I assumed above coins are staked in a transaction. One can split 10000 over 10 transactions, that will lead to 10 times of staking with 1000 coins.


  Coin MAGI  . XMG   
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January 19, 2015, 02:53:46 AM
Last edit: January 19, 2015, 03:43:47 AM by joelao95
 #9503

So community POS takeover??? Sounds fun
NO, not at all, no one is taking over; me, just proividing some help here, that's about it. I believe NOBL is not about PoS or anything like that, but with the big business plan.

For those who ask for my permission, blessing or opinion I don't really have much to say. My stance was always reduced rewards/merge-mining with DOGE/LTC and not touching PoS due to huge security concerns. The PoS drive began with the community 'democratic' vote so I didn't feel like the dictator of a decentralized coin. It's a shame I couldn't get delivery of PoS sorted which is why I felt it best in the community hands. I'd advise a real vote in IRC and for those ultimately chosen to determine the future of NOBL to really understand the technology/industry future and care about things more important than short-medium term price/position protection. Good luck with your choices.

Rofo, good to see you; my little suggestion regarding your prior takeover post: DO NOT hand NOBL over to someone else if you want to see it alive "forever", or it will be dead soon. I'm seriously saying that, no one else can handle a coin as much as its original dev. Only you know what the coin was and will be in the future. Just ask the question, for what reasons, somebody/party would take over the coin? I never see a successful coin because of taking over (correct me).

I am free to take some tasks to pass NOBL over the PoS or whatever else. Let the community handle marketing stuffs etc, so that you can focus on your plan. But man, don't push yourself too hard; you know the crypto stuff is crazy, simply don't rely on it. I don't see any anticipation that we can get something out of it readily & quickly, unless undergoing the scam scheme (for quick profits), that's absolutely not what we're gonna do. Just relax yourself, few hours of crypto, few hours of your real life business. That's it!

My stance was always reduced rewards and not touching PoS due to huge security concerns.

I think this would be about right choice too; magi did have a specific design on the dynamic block rewards; I bet that will be resist to multipool. For anyone who is interested to it (again this post, or PM me for more discussion; I am actually keen to see it's combining with the scrypt ago to resist ASIC (it's a soft control though; I'm quite serious on this): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9991269#msg9991269 (also find the paper in the OP).

Edit: implementing this design into NOBL will only need a hardfork that can be done quite easily. No swap is needed, and we will be able to keep everything else the same, including the original NOBL code.  


  Coin MAGI  . XMG   
Coin Source : Trust Verified    [ ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ ]
  ♓.NΣTWORK-DΣPΣNDΣNT  RΣWARDING SYSTΣM  ※ 
  ANN THREAD MAGIPAY FAQ FORUM
.CPU Mining   PoS-II   PoM   Unique Block Reward 
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January 19, 2015, 07:58:29 AM
 #9504

Quote
My stance was always reduced rewards/merge-mining with DOGE/LTC and not touching PoS due to huge security concerns.

Is the correct quote because of the long-established and proven algo (non-experimental) as well as specific/efficient technology/money dedicated to it (Scrypt/ASIC). The community is free to vote on what they prefer though, I'm done trying to make my cases for specific paths.

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January 19, 2015, 08:21:10 AM
 #9505

I think such attack could be mitigated with typical PoS if we used quite low Max Stake Age e.g. 1 week? And Min Stake Age of couple of hours? This way it does not matter if someone keeps staking for months since Weight will be capped.

Yep, tweaking can help, but it's all a matter of compromise and making it "harder" to attack.

For instance, even with stake age and other tweaks, you could envision someone stashing coins in thousandths of wallet addresses, distributing them in dozens of cloud VMs with a client modified for the purpose of the attack, and then starting them all at once, thus take over the chain.

If the attack is timed well enough, the above may not even be that costly: each address would need to hold the bare minimum for staking, and each VM would only need to run as long as necessary for the attack. Using digital ocean f.i., you could have 60 VMs (and daemons) up for 12 hour for just $5, which would be quite enough to overwhelm any low-volume PoS chain. You could even DDOS the few "friendly" top-staking nodes for good measure.

Preparation for such an attack would be very obvious if not planned well in advance (lots of transactions to distribute coins), and would be very obvious when it's running (lots of new nodes in the network), but would likely happen faster than anyone could react.

AFAIK the only protection against this would the be PoS difficulty retarget, but if that diff starts too low, it would not be able to move higher fast enough, as an attacker can throw a lot of cheap staking power.

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January 19, 2015, 08:34:59 AM
 #9506

My Social Media Action Campaigning system at promoplugs.com is now complete, and it is ready for NOBL to set up a campaign.
Example Campaign: http://promoplugs.com/Campaign.aspx?CID=32

Funds will need to be raised to handle the payouts.

Their are two forms of campaigns. the 1st is a Raffle system, where a select few (as few as 1) are selected to earn a moderately large sum at the end of the campaign. If you choose this kind of campaign, I would be happy to run it for a small fee. Alternatively, and generally with better results, you can choose to pay out a small sum for every actions performed. This type of campaign takes a significant amount of management, 50-100 addresses to pay out a day on a good campaign. I could not manage this campaign myself, and so we would need to find someone trustworthy within your community to handle the payouts and Campaign funds. Let me know which option you choose.


If someone wants to volunteer to run the 2nd type, Post here.

If you'd like to pledge towards the Campaign pool, post here how much. Once we reach 1000,00 NOBL pledged, I'll either give the go-ahead for a volunteer to set up the 2nd type of campaign, or if no volunteer comes forward I'll set up the Raffle type campaign.  Once we hit 100,000, a Campaign pool address will be posted by the campaign manager (me or whoever volunteers to help out).

The free campaign will be 3 days long.

TOTAL Pledged: 0 NOBL
Needed: 100,000 NOBL

I suggest we take 100,000 from the leftovers of the community fund to get this started. Let me know an address and Ill transfer the 100,000.
If we decide on the raffle, then i'll just have you pay out the winners. If someone else wants to manage the other type of campaign, I'll have them post an address.
Also, 100,000 was just the minimum i felt would be needed to keep this going for 3 days (based on our previous action campaign). More is always welcome, especially if we go with the 'pay out all actions' campaign type.



I'll give 100,000. It was good last time.

I also volunteer to do the legwork for the PoA campaign. Reckon we should wait for PoS before kicking it off though.
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January 19, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
 #9507

I think such attack could be mitigated with typical PoS if we used quite low Max Stake Age e.g. 1 week? And Min Stake Age of couple of hours? This way it does not matter if someone keeps staking for months since Weight will be capped.

Yep, tweaking can help, but it's all a matter of compromise and making it "harder" to attack.

For instance, even with stake age and other tweaks, you could envision someone stashing coins in thousandths of wallet addresses, distributing them in dozens of cloud VMs with a client modified for the purpose of the attack, and then starting them all at once, thus take over the chain.

If the attack is timed well enough, the above may not even be that costly: each address would need to hold the bare minimum for staking, and each VM would only need to run as long as necessary for the attack. Using digital ocean f.i., you could have 60 VMs (and daemons) up for 12 hour for just $5, which would be quite enough to overwhelm any low-volume PoS chain. You could even DDOS the few "friendly" top-staking nodes for good measure.

Preparation for such an attack would be very obvious if not planned well in advance (lots of transactions to distribute coins), and would be very obvious when it's running (lots of new nodes in the network), but would likely happen faster than anyone could react.

AFAIK the only protection against this would the be PoS difficulty retarget, but if that diff starts too low, it would not be able to move higher fast enough, as an attacker can throw a lot of cheap staking power.

If MinAge and MaxAge are low enough this should make such an attack much more costly.

Do you think Magi Coin's PoS should be resistant to such an attack? If yes, why?
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January 19, 2015, 02:40:31 PM
 #9508

I am not concerned about attacks with significant amounts of coins. Big holders have to spend a lot to purchase these coins. It is unlikely someone will be willing to invest heavily into a coin just to attack it.
This is about right; there could be many possibilities to make it happen though, for example, unintentional staking with big amount because of the "greed", let alone pool staking is happening. More or less this is a security hole.

Joe, I would like to understand how Magi Coin's PoS works, could you tell roughly how many coins will be minted by:

- wallet with 1 Magi Coin
- wallet with 10 Magi Coins
- 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 coins?

Let us presume these wallets are online all the time for a month.
It's a bit difficult to estimate a month staking. In general, reward = coinage * APR / 365. To be simple, coinage is about linearly increasing with staking days (within the first four days). As an example, 100 XMG staking gets reward in the 3rd day, then reward = (100*3) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.021 XMG; 1000 XMG will get reward within half day: (100*0.5) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.036 XMG. For 10000, 100000 coins in staking barely gets reward. I assumed above coins are staked in a transaction. One can split 10000 over 10 transactions, that will lead to 10 times of staking with 1000 coins.

Thank you for your answer. It is perfect. I am trying to understand one aspect, please correct me if I am wrong:
1. miners with 0 or small amount of coins will get nothing
2. miners with 100-1000 coins will get best results
3. miners with more than 1000 coins will be penalized and the more coins someone holds (in one transaction) the harsher penalty

My question is about holders with more coins than 1000. Is it correct that such holder will get smaller reward than someone staking 1000 coins (in one transaction)? Is such a reward going to drop almost to 0 for big enough stashes?

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January 19, 2015, 07:35:11 PM
 #9509

I am not concerned about attacks with significant amounts of coins. Big holders have to spend a lot to purchase these coins. It is unlikely someone will be willing to invest heavily into a coin just to attack it.
This is about right; there could be many possibilities to make it happen though, for example, unintentional staking with big amount because of the "greed", let alone pool staking is happening. More or less this is a security hole.

Joe, I would like to understand how Magi Coin's PoS works, could you tell roughly how many coins will be minted by:

- wallet with 1 Magi Coin
- wallet with 10 Magi Coins
- 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 coins?

Let us presume these wallets are online all the time for a month.
It's a bit difficult to estimate a month staking. In general, reward = coinage * APR / 365. To be simple, coinage is about linearly increasing with staking days (within the first four days). As an example, 100 XMG staking gets reward in the 3rd day, then reward = (100*3) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.021 XMG; 1000 XMG will get reward within half day: (100*0.5) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.036 XMG. For 10000, 100000 coins in staking barely gets reward. I assumed above coins are staked in a transaction. One can split 10000 over 10 transactions, that will lead to 10 times of staking with 1000 coins.

Thank you for your answer. It is perfect. I am trying to understand one aspect, please correct me if I am wrong:
1. miners with 0 or small amount of coins will get nothing
2. miners with 100-1000 coins will get best results
3. miners with more than 1000 coins will be penalized and the more coins someone holds (in one transaction) the harsher penalty

My question is about holders with more coins than 1000. Is it correct that such holder will get smaller reward than someone staking 1000 coins (in one transaction)? Is such a reward going to drop almost to 0 for big enough stashes?

I wouldn't call it penalty. Just taking away the advantage against the smaller coin holders. This way, a usual miner with a lower amount of coins wouldn't have a huge disadvantage against exchanges, PoS pools, miners with huge hashpower or investors with a lot of coins who would get much bigger staking amounts usually.
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January 19, 2015, 09:46:26 PM
 #9510

I am not concerned about attacks with significant amounts of coins. Big holders have to spend a lot to purchase these coins. It is unlikely someone will be willing to invest heavily into a coin just to attack it.
This is about right; there could be many possibilities to make it happen though, for example, unintentional staking with big amount because of the "greed", let alone pool staking is happening. More or less this is a security hole.

Joe, I would like to understand how Magi Coin's PoS works, could you tell roughly how many coins will be minted by:

- wallet with 1 Magi Coin
- wallet with 10 Magi Coins
- 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 coins?

Let us presume these wallets are online all the time for a month.
It's a bit difficult to estimate a month staking. In general, reward = coinage * APR / 365. To be simple, coinage is about linearly increasing with staking days (within the first four days). As an example, 100 XMG staking gets reward in the 3rd day, then reward = (100*3) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.021 XMG; 1000 XMG will get reward within half day: (100*0.5) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.036 XMG. For 10000, 100000 coins in staking barely gets reward. I assumed above coins are staked in a transaction. One can split 10000 over 10 transactions, that will lead to 10 times of staking with 1000 coins.

Thank you for your answer. It is perfect. I am trying to understand one aspect, please correct me if I am wrong:
1. miners with 0 or small amount of coins will get nothing
2. miners with 100-1000 coins will get best results
3. miners with more than 1000 coins will be penalized and the more coins someone holds (in one transaction) the harsher penalty

My question is about holders with more coins than 1000. Is it correct that such holder will get smaller reward than someone staking 1000 coins (in one transaction)? Is such a reward going to drop almost to 0 for big enough stashes?

I wouldn't call it penalty. Just taking away the advantage against the smaller coin holders. This way, a usual miner with a lower amount of coins wouldn't have a huge disadvantage against exchanges, PoS pools, miners with huge hashpower or investors with a lot of coins who would get much bigger staking amounts usually.

This way it will be suitable coin for everyone. Not only for big holders manipulating the market but for everyone.
This is/was the problem for the Bitcoin - big holders and large mining farms were doing what they wanted. Now the price is low it's too low for large mining operations but  also more affordable for "normal" people.
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January 19, 2015, 10:39:11 PM
 #9511

I see the merits of pos-ii, and at the same time I wish it was an option with longer proven feedbacks. It does sound very promising, but as we should all know, every new tech and innovation can use additional time to stand the test of scrutiny and time. I wish to err on the side of caution and keep a good eye on this, while initially stabilizing our transition by using a proven general POS option.

Long ago we had many discussions about merits of Merged Mining and I had hoped such a path would be open and possible. As far as I know, DMD offer was the closest we had to achieving that goal, but at the moment it seems it did not materialize as the torch was passed on to palmdetroit for a general pos wallet (and he has not responded afte a month and a half now).

We have dedicated community members working on both of general pos and pos-ii options, so once it is ready the community should review both options and agree on the best course to take for the foreseeable future. Once again, I advocate for the general pos swap as the immediate course of action, and perhaps pos-ii at a later date should it stand the test of scrutiny and proven its stability with test of time. It would be highly risky to risk the future of Noblecoin on something so new so quickly, and basic improved security of the blockchain (removing multipools and large hashrates from conducting further 51% attacks) is paramount and immediate concern.

One step at a time, so we can get this done right for the good of all and Noblecoin itself Smiley
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January 20, 2015, 01:25:32 AM
 #9512

If anyone is interested, I will be willing to redo my infographic when a new legitimate PoS wallet becomes legitimate and functional.
It is sad to see Noblecoin now trading for only 6 satoshis, but I understand the reasoning and no one is to be blamed really.
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January 20, 2015, 08:00:10 AM
 #9513

If MinAge and MaxAge are low enough this should make such an attack much more costly.

Do you think Magi Coin's PoS should be resistant to such an attack? If yes, why?

Min/Max Age will influence how many coin stashes (addresses) you need, and the the minimum number of coins you need for staking an address influence costs dramatically as well.
For instance if the minimum stash is 10 noble, you can have tens of thousandths of stashes for next to nothing, but everyone will be able to stake, while if the minimum stash is 1 M noble, having many stashes will be expensive, but too few will be able to stake... so a balance needs to be found.

But in the grand scheme of things, this attack is PoS's version of 51%, and if you have a low PoS diff, you're just as vulnerable as if you have with a low PoW diff anyway.

So while the parameters can make it more costly/difficult, the real protection is difficulty: ie. how many friendly wallets are staking 24/7. Parameters should encourage friendly staking wallets (and I think Magi's parameters do), and discourage "offline staking".

Good parameters make the "basic" attack more expensive and encourage more 24/7 staking, which makes attacks more difficult.

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January 20, 2015, 09:41:55 AM
 #9514

I am not concerned about attacks with significant amounts of coins. Big holders have to spend a lot to purchase these coins. It is unlikely someone will be willing to invest heavily into a coin just to attack it.
This is about right; there could be many possibilities to make it happen though, for example, unintentional staking with big amount because of the "greed", let alone pool staking is happening. More or less this is a security hole.

Joe, I would like to understand how Magi Coin's PoS works, could you tell roughly how many coins will be minted by:

- wallet with 1 Magi Coin
- wallet with 10 Magi Coins
- 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 coins?

Let us presume these wallets are online all the time for a month.
It's a bit difficult to estimate a month staking. In general, reward = coinage * APR / 365. To be simple, coinage is about linearly increasing with staking days (within the first four days). As an example, 100 XMG staking gets reward in the 3rd day, then reward = (100*3) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.021 XMG; 1000 XMG will get reward within half day: (100*0.5) * 2.6% / 365 = 0.036 XMG. For 10000, 100000 coins in staking barely gets reward. I assumed above coins are staked in a transaction. One can split 10000 over 10 transactions, that will lead to 10 times of staking with 1000 coins.

Thank you for your answer. It is perfect. I am trying to understand one aspect, please correct me if I am wrong:
1. miners with 0 or small amount of coins will get nothing
2. miners with 100-1000 coins will get best results
3. miners with more than 1000 coins will be penalized and the more coins someone holds (in one transaction) the harsher penalty

My question is about holders with more coins than 1000. Is it correct that such holder will get smaller reward than someone staking 1000 coins (in one transaction)? Is such a reward going to drop almost to 0 for big enough stashes?

I wouldn't call it penalty. Just taking away the advantage against the smaller coin holders. This way, a usual miner with a lower amount of coins wouldn't have a huge disadvantage against exchanges, PoS pools, miners with huge hashpower or investors with a lot of coins who would get much bigger staking amounts usually.

I think that idea behind this decision is to discourage PoS pools from staking. However if there is a PoS pool which wants to stake Magi Coin they have resources to automatically divide their wallet into number of addresses each holding between 100-1000 coins so they will still maximize amount of coins they receive.

On the other hand for an individual who would like to invest significant amount of money into Magi Coin this may be a bad news and there is risk he may decide to look for investment opportunity somewhere else. Not everyone is tech savy who wants to spend time tinkering with his wallet.
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January 20, 2015, 10:33:58 AM
 #9515

RIP Noblecoin, I use to like it a lot
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January 20, 2015, 10:39:15 AM
 #9516

RIP Noblecoin, I use to like it a lot

Not the end, call it a new chapter...

A lot of other coins have been better than before by being run by the community, so rather than spreading FUD, why don't you help out and make Noble even better than before?
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January 20, 2015, 11:53:29 AM
 #9517

If anyone is interested, I will be willing to redo my infographic when a new legitimate PoS wallet becomes legitimate and functional.
It is sad to see Noblecoin now trading for only 6 satoshis, but I understand the reasoning and no one is to be blamed really.

Sounds good to me. We could definitely use it.
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January 20, 2015, 01:54:53 PM
 #9518

Rofo,

I would like to let you know that not everyone here is angry at you.

Most people who post to this thread still highly value the effort you put into Noblecoin. I fully understand you want to have a break. Shouting at you is not going to make things better. Feel free to take a break and come back later if you decide to still show some support for Noblecoin.

My only request is - could you please bring noblemovement website up? Or if you do not want to do it please consider handing it over to someone from this thread.

Thanks and good luck Rofo!
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January 20, 2015, 05:15:05 PM
 #9519

This one?

https://www.noblemovement.com/

seems up to me. I am not 100% sure but does it look differently since I last visited it?
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January 20, 2015, 05:27:10 PM
 #9520

Rofo,

I would like to let you know that not everyone here is angry at you.

Most people who post to this thread still highly value the effort you put into Noblecoin. I fully understand you want to have a break. Shouting at you is not going to make things better. Feel free to take a break and come back later if you decide to still show some support for Noblecoin.

My only request is - could you please bring noblemovement website up? Or if you do not want to do it please consider handing it over to someone from this thread.

Thanks and good luck Rofo!

I was a bit surprised of one of your lasts posts, but really understand it.
Sometimes it is better to take a break, then to let things burn you out.

best wishes

there is always a light at the end of the tunnel...
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