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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9723466 times)
AnonyMint
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April 02, 2014, 02:22:25 AM
Last edit: April 02, 2014, 12:53:22 PM by AnonyMint
 #11941


ive been following this discussion , and i most say, the level of control you need to have over the network to use it for a practical sybil attack is unfeasable, my worst case scenario tells me max 10% could be controlled, now if you do run it through say 10 times, the chance of being unmasked is 10% and we are talking about several factors that have to happen..

you need the 10% to be on EVERY mixing stage - Very unlikely im not even going to try and calculate the chance


Just trying to keep up with the concepts here...

If a tx is compromised on stage 1, for example, is it compromised through all of the following stages as well (assuming it doesn't pass through any more sybil nodes)?

You may be confusing 2 different things.

Each Darksend has 3 stages:

Collect inputs
Collect blind signed outputs
Collect signed inputs

The denial-of-service issue that would cause Darksend to repeat over and over and be blocked would be if an adversary refused to complete their part of the stages. Evan solved this by attaching a collateral penalty payment to stage 1 and this is charged only to those to don't complete all stages.

In doing that, Evan had to expose each Darksender's IP, input, and output to the randomly chosen MasterNode. So the MasterNode knows your identity, the anonymity is broken.

But if the MasterNode is not an adversary, it will not use that information against you (it won't retain nor share it with others).

If the MasterNode is an adversary, then that Darksend is not anonymous for you. There are other ways that a Darksend can end up not anonymous for you, see my calculation example upthread, e.g. Tor is also not 100% anonymous every time you use it.

So let's say that 20% of MasterNodes are adversaries (e.g. China's NSA buys up 20% of MasterNodes), then every time you do a Darksend, you have at least 20% chance of losing anonymity for that Darksend. (and more than 20% because Tor isn't 100%, etc)

So you do multiple Darksends and each one has a 20% (or more) chance of being not anonymous. But if any one of them is anonymous, then you are anonymous.

So take that percentage (including Tor factor, etc) and raise it to the exponent of the number of Darksends you will do on the same funds. So let's say 0.30^10 = 0.0000059049. That is 6 in a million. So very strong anonymity.

But please see my upthread calculation, because there are many factors and your anonymity will not be that strong in reality.

The adversary can also Sybil attack the inputs, meaning they flood the Darksend with inputs and thus assuming that Evan needs to set some limit on the number of inputs in a Darksend, then this attack can lower the anonymity set as I explained in my calculation.


Can the final input, output and IP be compromised at each mixing stage?  If so, how do multiple stages help at all?

Once a sender is compromised, how are they tracked in the future?  IP?  Wallet address?  Some other way?

Your IP, input and output are compromised at the probability (frequency) of the calculation.

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InternetApe
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April 02, 2014, 02:25:18 AM
 #11942

My client is not connecting to any nodes, anyone got a conf file example I could copy?

Had the same problem, it took like an hour + to connect to a node but it's all good now.  I just left it alone.

Both seed nodes were down, I forget to check them. Anyone else want to host a seed node?

- It needs to be configured to 200 connections max
- Must have 9999 open from the outside
- Must be a static IP
- Must be permanently available  

PM me and I'll add them to the source

Would it be of any help to use an amazon tiny ec2?  Only 1 cpu, but if it's just to run info through?  Let me know!

I have one running on a micro.

DarkCoin - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615 - DarkCoin aims to be the first privacy-centric cryptographic currency with fully encrypted transactions and anonymous block transactions.
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April 02, 2014, 02:26:42 AM
 #11943

My client is not connecting to any nodes, anyone got a conf file example I could copy?

Had the same problem, it took like an hour + to connect to a node but it's all good now.  I just left it alone.

Both seed nodes were down, I forget to check them. Anyone else want to host a seed node?

- It needs to be configured to 200 connections max
- Must have 9999 open from the outside
- Must be a static IP
- Must be permanently available  

PM me and I'll add them to the source

Would it be of any help to use an amazon tiny ec2?  Only 1 cpu, but if it's just to run info through?  Let me know!

Yep, that's what my seed node is.

Dash - Digital Cash | dash.org | dashfoundation.io | dashgo.io
TanteStefana
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April 02, 2014, 02:28:26 AM
 #11944

noticed you guys listed it as 0.9.1 version while it is still on old 0.8.6
It is not even 0.9.0

seems misleading, is their any update on when we can expect 0.9.0.x core or newer version.

Beta is on 10.0.0 right now, the regular is 9.1 or something like that.  We had a hard fork for an improvement to dgw recently.

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
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AnonyMint
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April 02, 2014, 02:31:03 AM
 #11945

Evan how are you going to stop the adversary from flooding the Darksend will unlimited inputs? You charge a small fee?

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TanteStefana
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April 02, 2014, 02:34:10 AM
 #11946

Why not Pow and PoS, where PoS is tied to fees earned from serving the nework?

ASIC for bitcoin is an arms race because people are spending cash on hardware trying to make as much as possible. Why not have a similar system for nodes? Create an arms race for being honest nodes and deploying as many as possible to fend off or diminish attacks?

I have no idea how this could be done, but it's an amazing idea!  Fits in with my capitalistic sensibilities.

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
TWITTERYOUTUBE
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April 02, 2014, 02:38:14 AM
 #11947

Evan how are you going to stop the adversary from flooding the Darksend will unlimited inputs? You charge a small fee?

You mean for honest transactions like a Sybil? There is a small fee that would add up of 0.001DRK

Dash - Digital Cash | dash.org | dashfoundation.io | dashgo.io
TanteStefana
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April 02, 2014, 02:43:02 AM
 #11948

WTF is going on here I go to Mexico for a week and...AnonyMint is helping.  Huh

Shit let's just solve the Israel/Palestine problem, we seem to be on a roll here.

LOL, very good!  eduffield obviously has the patience of a saint

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
TWITTERYOUTUBE
meebs
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April 02, 2014, 02:45:38 AM
 #11949

I'm really excited to see the evolution of this thread from people trying to figure out how to mine it.. to people talking about the price.. to a nice solid technical discussion about improving darksend.

I also really enjoyed Anonymint's summary a few posts up.. it really helped with understanding what on earth was even being discussed.

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slyA
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April 02, 2014, 02:47:57 AM
 #11950

I'm really excited to see the evolution of this thread from people trying to figure out how to mine it.. to people talking about the price.. to a nice solid technical discussion about improving darksend.

I also really enjoyed Anonymint's summary a few posts up.. it really helped with understanding what on earth was even being discussed.

It's kind of like watching a movie slowly devolve into Aramaic without subtitles. I sure as hell don't get it, but I am entertained.
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April 02, 2014, 03:04:21 AM
 #11951


It's like being an observer of some momentous historical event. Or it will be when Anonymint posts, "Huh. OK then."


LOL, don't hold your breath, it'll never happen, LOL

Mine something more profitable and buy dark with it???

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
TWITTERYOUTUBE
chaeplin
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April 02, 2014, 03:04:40 AM
 #11952

noticed you guys listed it as 0.9.1 version while it is still on old 0.8.6
It is not even 0.9.0

seems misleading, is their any update on when we can expect 0.9.0.x core or newer version.

Beta is on 10.0.0 right now, the regular is 9.1 or something like that.  We had a hard fork for an improvement to dgw recently.

I thik "0.9.0.x core" is reference client.

https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.0/README.txt
Code:
Rebranding to Bitcoin Core
---------------------------

To reduce confusion between Bitcoin-the-network and Bitcoin-the-software we
have renamed the reference client to Bitcoin Core.
TanteStefana
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April 02, 2014, 03:12:00 AM
 #11953

My client is not connecting to any nodes, anyone got a conf file example I could copy?

Had the same problem, it took like an hour + to connect to a node but it's all good now.  I just left it alone.

Both seed nodes were down, I forget to check them. Anyone else want to host a seed node?

- It needs to be configured to 200 connections max
- Must have 9999 open from the outside
- Must be a static IP
- Must be permanently available  

PM me and I'll add them to the source

Would it be of any help to use an amazon tiny ec2?  Only 1 cpu, but if it's just to run info through?  Let me know!

I have one running on a micro.

All I do is run darkcoind?  then give you all the ip?

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
TWITTERYOUTUBE
eduffield (OP)
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April 02, 2014, 03:31:45 AM
 #11954

My client is not connecting to any nodes, anyone got a conf file example I could copy?

Had the same problem, it took like an hour + to connect to a node but it's all good now.  I just left it alone.

Both seed nodes were down, I forget to check them. Anyone else want to host a seed node?

- It needs to be configured to 200 connections max
- Must have 9999 open from the outside
- Must be a static IP
- Must be permanently available  

PM me and I'll add them to the source

Would it be of any help to use an amazon tiny ec2?  Only 1 cpu, but if it's just to run info through?  Let me know!

I have one running on a micro.

All I do is run darkcoind?  then give you all the ip?

max-connections=200
with 9999 open
and darkcoind running, that's it

Dash - Digital Cash | dash.org | dashfoundation.io | dashgo.io
LimLims
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April 02, 2014, 05:25:27 AM
 #11955

Ok, gotcha. That could be mitigated in a similar way by the community running scripts to act as inputs to push DS transactions through. I think Evan suggested this a while back.

Can you explain more? I don't understand.
Was just referring to the idea in the whitepaper of having a script to darksend random amounts to yourself to increase entropy in inputs.
Quote
Based on these numbers (despite not factoring in sybil inputs), it seems clear that a high level of anonymity can be achieved by increasing the number of pooling stages to 10+, even if the attacker controls > 50% of nodes.

Depends. Because 50% means that your anonymity set is reduced by 50% on each round as I explained in my other post above.

Example. If you are mixed with 10 others on each round, then only 5 will be anonymous (and one of the five might be you), so that means have 50% + 20% (1 in 5) chance to be non-anonymous. So 70% per round. You will need more rounds or you need larger mix sizes.

This is actually not correct. A distinction needs to be made between the risk of being unmasked completely, and the reduction in the size of the set of anonymous entities in a pool.

As an illustration: say we have a ballot with only two voters. We would know with 50% certainty the identity behind each vote. It's a small anonymous set of identities, but the vote is still anonymous. The lack of certainty represents a break in the causal chain. This is important for various reasons, but doesn't diminish the importance of having a large pool of anonymous identities (likewise for various reasons). So for strong anonymity we need some level of certainty of not being unmasked completely AND a sufficiently large pool of anonymous users.

The edge case is where all other inputs are sybils, which breaks the anonymity and would have to be factored into the calculation (it'd be a small factor).

This distinction means the % of sybil inputs doesn't contribute to the chance of being unmasked in the way you're describing (except for the aforementioned edge case). The % of sybil inputs changes the size of the pool of anonymous identities. These are different concepts and to cover them both we'd need two separate calculations.

Quote
Also if it is same 10 you are mixed with every round (or any overlap), then anonymity is reduced. If always same 10 on every round, then you attain no better than 20% non-anonymous no matter how many rounds you use.
That's true, however I'd assume it would be designed such that there would be no guarantee that each stage of pooling would contain the same users, otherwise it'd defeat the point.

Quote
Also you have to factor in the non-anonymous rate of Tor and those inputs who didn't use Tor at all are not anonymous. This reduces your anonymity set, even if you use Tor.
This is important and I don't think the ramifications of IP addresses unmasking anonymity have been adequately discussed here yet.

What would be required to unmask an otherwise anonymous darksend transaction if the IP addresses were available at each of the compromised nodes?

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April 02, 2014, 05:41:21 AM
 #11956

If it turns out that the last 10 pages were not "the coming together of great minds over a scholarly discussion", but rather Evan having an argument with his alter ego having finally lost it, I will be greatly disappointed Smiley
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April 02, 2014, 05:49:29 AM
 #11957

sorry to dumb down this current discussions but can someone pls answer a few basic questions for me....i've been mining DRK for a few weeks and like the concept of the coin.  It's one of the few i believe actually serves a purpose.

so i just need a quick summary...

Is Darkcoin completely anoymous?  is Darksend going to work as planned?

Is AnonyMint a DRK developler?

Should I keep mining Darkcoin or go back to normal scrypt coins?

Good free and easy Bitcoin Faucet thingy: https://freebitco.in/?r=9293711
Do not invest in HYIPs people, however you can put some into iCenter: https://t.me/icenter_bot?start=j5t25s58148
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April 02, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
 #11958

If it turns out that the last 10 pages were not "the coming together of great minds over a scholarly discussion", but rather Evan having an argument with his alter ego having finally lost it, I will be greatly disappointed Smiley

Never!

Now pop some corns!
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April 02, 2014, 05:58:49 AM
 #11959

sorry to dumb down this current discussions but can someone pls answer a few basic questions for me....i've been mining DRK for a few weeks and like the concept of the coin.  It's one of the few i believe actually serves a purpose.

so i just need a quick summary...

Is Darkcoin completely anoymous?  is Darksend going to work as planned?

Is AnonyMint a DRK developler?

Should I keep mining Darkcoin or go back to normal scrypt coins?

No AnonyMint is not a developer, but he has brought up ideas for the coin to get better.

Nothing is ever completely anonymous, DRK was not developed to give anyone a way to do anything illegal, the idea was to give people a coin that allows you to send and receive coins and would be really hard to track, which is still in beta development, but is working currently, if using the beta wallet, but we are trying to make it even better. Currently with othercoins including Bitcoin you can look back and see addresses and who they sent coins to.

DarkCoin - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615 - DarkCoin aims to be the first privacy-centric cryptographic currency with fully encrypted transactions and anonymous block transactions.
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April 02, 2014, 06:14:59 AM
 #11960

Ok, so I have darkcoind in my Ubuntu, I started it , it seems ok, but I can't see any feed back.  If I try to start it again, it can't get a lock on the .darkcoin directory so it must be running.  I can't stop it either.  ./darkcoin stop or -stop or --stop doesn't work, says
error: incorrect rpcuser or rpcpassword (authorization failed)

so I try one of those with
./darkcoind stop -rpcuser=name -rpcpassword=pass

I try this with help -help --help as well, but it doesn't do anything.  I also can't getinfo

Can anyone help me?  I'm leaving it for the night, maybe it's downloading the blockchain and can't be disturbed?  I'll see how it is in the morning Smiley

Thanks for any help

p.s. I can't find a good readme on this either, no info, so maybe I'm just not finding it?

█ ANN THREAD █
﹝Whitepaper﹞
【BLACKBOX OS】
The Future of Work. Decentralized.
TELEGRAM﹞﹝FACEBOOK
TWITTERYOUTUBE
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