[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[TanteStefana2]

fernando on the darkcointalk.org has the statistical percentages given various rounds and masternode counts.

Oh, cool, I gotta look that up

Hummm, I can't find it, if anyone happens to know the link and could share, I would sure appreciate it   Thanks!

[Minotaur26]

fernando on the darkcointalk.org has the statistical percentages given various rounds and masternode counts.

Oh, cool, I gotta look that up

Hummm, I can't find it, if anyone happens to know the link and could share, I would sure appreciate it   Thanks!

Is here on the July 15th update, google docs below the flowchart. 


https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

[HinnomTX]

My point is, if you're going to do an independent review...it must be totally independent.  The banker friend was interested in DRK and did his research.  He applied the same metrics that he applies to any investment in any emergent technology and DRK failed (or a least he is holding off buying) because of the way in which KA has been paid.  That's  a reminder that real world business standards need to be applied to alt coins if they are going to progress long term and attract new money.

There is no way to make a review such as this fair or independent. It's a de facto paid review, simple as that. KA's time and expertise are valuable. Even if the community converted the DRK donation to BTC before sending to KA, it would not change the nature of the review.
I welcome his findings. This is software, and DRK has a competent dev, so it's a good bet that any obvious security/anonymity flaws can be fixed. IMO, there's only one way to find out if your coin has real security. When the code is open sourced, hackers will try to attack the network with malicious clients. Then we'll know.

At least I am glad to see your banker friend did not sway you from continuing your pursuit of more DRK.

[TanteStefana2]

fernando on the darkcointalk.org has the statistical percentages given various rounds and masternode counts.

Oh, cool, I gotta look that up

Hummm, I can't find it, if anyone happens to know the link and could share, I would sure appreciate it   Thanks!

Is here on the July 15th update, google docs below the flowchart. 


https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

Ah, thank you

[AlexGR]

If DS+ works as intended it means that there's an equal possibility that either party could own the prior money from the viewpoint of the blockchain after 1 round of mixing. Even then there's plausible deniability from future transactions. With more rounds of DS+ things get much harder to track, for example 8 rounds of DS+, there's 2^8 users with an equal likelihood of owning the prior money (256 possible users). With 3 participants per join, there's 3^8 users (6561).

DS+ just removes the blockchain as being used as proof that any user did anything with absolute certainty, which is our goal.

I like its concept. What it does and what it is supposed to do is quite simple actually. Well that's a lot of possible users in this case. Have you considered upping that somehow?

If a user is paranoid, he can mix his coins another 8 times (or another 8 + 8 ) making the odds astronomical.

[TanteStefana2]

My point is, if you're going to do an independent review...it must be totally independent.  The banker friend was interested in DRK and did his research.  He applied the same metrics that he applies to any investment in any emergent technology and DRK failed (or a least he is holding off buying) because of the way in which KA has been paid.  That's  a reminder that real world business standards need to be applied to alt coins if they are going to progress long term and attract new money.

There is no way to make a review such as this fair or independent. It's a de facto paid review, simple as that. KA's time and expertise are valuable. Even if the community converted the DRK donation to BTC before sending to KA, it would not change the nature of the review.
I welcome his findings. This is software, and DRK has a competent dev, so it's a good bet that any obvious security/anonymity flaws can be fixed. IMO, there's only one way to find out if your coin has real security. When the code is open sourced, hackers will try to attack the network with malicious clients. Then we'll know.

At least I am glad to see your banker friend did not sway you from continuing your pursuit of more DRK.

Very true, in the end, we are going to have to be tested in the "wild".  And what doesn't kill us will make us stronger.  I think the idea behind a code review is to fortify as much as possible before the barrage.  But the barrage will come... must come.

[JGCMiner]

Looking at the comment section on Jira...

Seems like Evan squashed the large wallet denomination bug.  
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-28

Also expect faster denomination in RC5.
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-35

All in all it seems that the coin development is proceeding very nicely.

[spuushie]

Noob here!

What value do you guys estimate that DRK will go to?

Thanks!

[drawingthesun]

Noob here!

What value do you guys estimate that DRK will go to?

Thanks!

Its current value if you're lucky!

[Minotaur26]

fernando on the darkcointalk.org has the statistical percentages given various rounds and masternode counts.

Oh, cool, I gotta look that up

Hummm, I can't find it, if anyone happens to know the link and could share, I would sure appreciate it  Thanks!

Is here on the July 15th update, google docs below the flowchart.  


https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

Ah, thank you

Keep in mind, The google docs analyze the probability of a party controlling several rogue masternodes intentionally deanonymizing a transaction, so if we had 1000 masternodes, which seems close to where we will be.  A party controlling 100 masternodes (which will require 100K DRK) would have a chance of 0.00000077% of deanonymizing an 8 round DRK transaction, that is basically no chance.

Now the thing we might be interested in is the probability of someone just tracing a transaction without any malicious masternode involved, then we can use Evan's numbers from this post:

Does this diagram mean that with 1 round mixing for 2 users - coins are traceable (related to ours) with 50% chance?
So in simplified model, to make our coins 99% chance untraceable we need to mix it with at least 99 other Darkcoin's users? Is it correct?

If DS+ works as intended it means that there's an equal possibility that either party could own the prior money from the viewpoint of the blockchain after 1 round of mixing. Even then there's plausible deniability from future transactions. With more rounds of DS+ things get much harder to track, for example 8 rounds of DS+, there's 2^8 users with an equal likelihood of owning the prior money (256 possible users). With 3 participants per join, there's 3^8 users (6561).

DS+ just removes the blockchain as being used as proof that any user did anything with absolute certainty, which is our goal.

Now remember you can send already mixed coins for additional rounds of mixing, now remember that even with a single round of mixing, you are basically just guessing since there is no direct link, and also the mixing and the spending are done at completely different times so you cant do timing analysis and check if some address decreased the same amount of coins  some other address increased, that just wouldn't work with Darksend+.  So I think you are left just with guessing and with any anonymity approach you take  guessing is always an option, so that means in my opinion Darksend+ is as good as it gets while keeping a practical solution.  Like AlexGR said you could do 16 rounds divided in two 8 round iterations in fact you can do 32 rounds divided in 4 separate 8 round iterations, nothing stops you from doing this if you are that worried.  Since people seem to like edge cases, lets say we do 32 rounds of mixing with 3 participants, using Evans logic above that would be 3^32, that means there would be a 0.0000000000000053965% chance of someone tracing a transaction.  This is all above my pay grade, but that is how I understand it, maybe others can confirm.

[Minotaur26]

Noob here!

What value do you guys estimate that DRK will go to?

Thanks!

Drawingthesun, is a  long time detractor, and supports other anon coins,  as you can see by his unsubstantiated response. Although nobody can give you an accurate price prediction, you are coming at a good time since Darkcoin has gone  through an speculation cycle recently, it seems like current pricing is a very solid base of longer term investors supporting the coin, this is a very good entry point as it is very unlikely people will dump from this price.  Darkcoin all time high is around 15USD so you are buying at a good point with great growth potential, from a technical perspective, we are expecting an external review by Kristov Atlas to come out in the next couple of weeks, to know all the plans of the development team check out the official announcements from darkcointalk.org focus on the ones coming from eddufield the lead developer of the project:

https://darkcointalk.org/forums/official-announcements.54/

[stonehedge]

I don't want to sound like a whiner, but I'm going to whine, LOL.

I don't get it, why is lightcoin worth $5.50+ right now?  What the heck?  Why?

And darkcoin in a hole... yah....

And I really wish I understood statistics so I could figure out what the chances of being found out are for 3, 5 and 8 rounds of darksend?

Finally, I agree with the guys above.  Auditing takes a long time if you do a thorough job of it, and we (the community) wanted a job well done.   Kristov has a moral obligation to us, foremost and primarily.  His coins are his to do with as he likes, including selling off asap if he thinks they're not up to snuff so he can cash in before he sends in his verdict.

How else are we going to pay him?  This makes his obligation to us, though he gives his report to our CEO, our CEO did not pay him, and shouldn't control his loyalty, we should.

Now I have a crazy idea.  What would happen if you could, along with denominating your coins as it is now, darksend them with a front end mixer like it was?  Man, I'd think that would be incredibly messed up!  How could anyone/thing follow the bread crumb trail then?

Also, I think I glimpsed a question about the blockchain getting bigger.  Yah, I think it'll probably be getting.... guessing.... 5% bigger/faster than a "normal" block chain  (pulling out of my @$$, but...)  But the thing is, we're planning to have masternodes serve up the blockchain for our users (also will still need to be on hand for miners)  So eventually, users will only need to use a lightweight blockchain while the miners and masternodes will keep the ledger decentralized and in check. (and of course, anyone else who wishes to keep a copy).

Also, stonehedge, anyone could at least study the way DS works, or get someone they trust to look into it and get at least the idea reviewed for themselves.  True, you can't see if the code has flaws, but you can extensively test it in testnet (without any risks) and see how it performs.  So I think your financial dude is a bit myopic and not seeing the big picture.  We are also a small community here.  We know whom we trust (really trust) and it's as good as we can get it.  Yet, I'll bet my life, yes my life, that we as a community can figure out whom to trust better than any business out there in the "normal world".

All pump and dumpers are scammers trying to bleed newbs.  That's the only way money gets into the system for them to win. They always hurt crypto coins when they do that as well, all cryptos.  But there are bad players everywhere, and I dare say the subject is easily written on every wall, all over the floors and on the ceilings, so anyone who gets burned in that game should have known better.  Point being, we have all kinds here, yet as in the real world (outside cryptos) we, as a whole, can figure out what's what

I think you're on the right lines TanteStefana but the thing is that for us to succeed with DRK, we need to attract people who might not necessarily know what a code review or open source is or actually means. These are the kind of people who need to be able to see an easy to use service and not need to know about how masternodes work or understand what Kristov comes out with.  These are the people who need a method of payment like Darkcoin and decide to use it.  Unfortunately, these are the people most at risk of FUD in my opinion.  

As for my banker friend, as JGCMiner points out, he has probably missed an opportunity to get in relatively early and as you point out he is being a touch myopic but that is the way he has to be.  He isn't your average joe DRK user, he wants to buy 20k or 30k DRK and sit on them for a few years.  For him to invest a similar amount into a startup business (which is his second hobby, after driving up London property prices) he would need to see a code review by somebody who didn't have a vested interest in the success of the business.  Myopic for sure but rest assured that my banker friend (MBF from now on!) misses plenty of opportunities and also makes plenty of bad investments too.  He has his rules and sticks to them.  One of his rules is that compliance is non negotiable.

I noted a few people up thread saying companies pay for auditors to come in and always will.  That is correct but this is slightly different in that the auditor is independent and being rewarded by the potential success of the product he is auditing.  It is not the same as Evan saying here's $2k to come and do a code audit.  This is the DRK community inadvertently saying please come and review our code and if its good, you will earn a lot more money than if its bad.  This is not cool in the real world.  I only really raised it as an issue on this thread because I'm not sure if people realise what it could look like to potential investors/service users who might consider getting involved with DRK when they hear of it but don't know who Eduffield is and don't know their masternodes and DRK community from their asses.

Anyway, this current low price stability is reassuring and I'm just frustrated that I'm as invested as I possibly can be and not have a divorce on my hands  The code review will be of value to darkcoin and to the community but I doubt it is going to attract much outside attention.  This will come after RC5 when Evan and his compadres launch their marketing machine into full swing.  We're still testing a new service and we are privileged to be involved so early on.

Last time I contributed on here I caused offence by insinuating that some people were liars because they were reporting lost funds and bugs on here but refusing to report them to bitcointalk or on Jira. Sorry if I have caused any offence by opening a discussion on the code review. S ometimes it is good to look at something that you have emotional and financial investment in with an independent with experience (like MBF).  I was just reporting back on his thoughts.

For what its worth, he loves the masternode concept and will keep an eye on things in the future.  I think he has a DRK price ticker on his phone and google news alerts set up now

[stonehedge]

I just realised I forgot to say that what attracted MBF to research DRK in the first place.

Number 1 on his list of investment rules is that "company" must have a product or service with potential demand.  He missed the boat on BTC and made a few bad decisions with some other altcoins.  What he loves about DRK is he thinks that it has future demand. 

He has been stung on a few bad investments in technology companies over the years but most notably poured money down the drain in the late 90s investing in companies that had little more than a web site and a cool name.

Since then his biggest successes have ranged from online confectionary and food services and a few other things that I can't mention without potentialy identifying him.

I think the fact that MBF has DRK on his watch list is a nice little reminder to look to the future and stop looking at the price chart

[shojayxt]

Noob here!

What value do you guys estimate that DRK will go to?

Thanks!

Drawingthesun, is a  long time detractor, and supports other anon coins,  as you can see by his unsubstantiated response. Although nobody can give you an accurate price prediction, you are coming at a good time since Darkcoin has gone  through an speculation cycle recently, it seems like current pricing is a very solid base of longer term investors supporting the coin, this is a very good entry point as it is very unlikely people will dump from this price.  Darkcoin all time high is around 15USD so you are buying at a good point with great growth potential, from a technical perspective, we are expecting an external review by Kristov Atlas to come out in the next couple of weeks, to know all the plans of the development team check out the official announcements from darkcointalk.org focus on the ones coming from eddufield the lead developer of the project:

https://darkcointalk.org/forums/official-announcements.54/

Darkcoin may never reach it's all time high again.  That high was just an example of a successful pump and dump.  I would like to thank all the pumpers for allowing me to tag along and make a significant profit from trading drk.  The bitcoin I made is being put to good use.  

I tried the masternode thing for a week and was rewarded a measly 4.5 drk.  I dumped the 1000 drk, bought back at a lower price 15 minutes later for a profit of 75 drk in 15 minutes.  I doubt that I will be setting up a masternode again.  I can't justify tying up the btc to earn $10 in a week when I can earn 15 time that in 15 minutes with a couple trades.

Oh, I bought and sold those original 1000 drk I dumped from the masternode I was running several times since yesterday and now have 1203 drk sitting on the exchange. That's 203 drk made in a day vs 4.5 made in a week.    

Some people might be content with the meager profits earned from running a masternode but I prefer to maximize my profits and most likely won't be tying my capital up just to support the DRK network.  Just like the majority of altcoins, drk is basically nothing more than a coin to sell on the pumps and buy on the dumps.  Time it right and you'll make lots of btc.

Go DRK!

[shojayxt]

I don't want to sound like a whiner, but I'm going to whine, LOL.

I don't get it, why is lightcoin worth $5.50+ right now?  What the heck?  Why?

And darkcoin in a hole... yah....

And I really wish I understood statistics so I could figure out what the chances of being found out are for 3, 5 and 8 rounds of darksend?

Finally, I agree with the guys above.  Auditing takes a long time if you do a thorough job of it, and we (the community) wanted a job well done.   Kristov has a moral obligation to us, foremost and primarily.  His coins are his to do with as he likes, including selling off asap if he thinks they're not up to snuff so he can cash in before he sends in his verdict.

How else are we going to pay him?  This makes his obligation to us, though he gives his report to our CEO, our CEO did not pay him, and shouldn't control his loyalty, we should.

Now I have a crazy idea.  What would happen if you could, along with denominating your coins as it is now, darksend them with a front end mixer like it was?  Man, I'd think that would be incredibly messed up!  How could anyone/thing follow the bread crumb trail then?

Also, I think I glimpsed a question about the blockchain getting bigger.  Yah, I think it'll probably be getting.... guessing.... 5% bigger/faster than a "normal" block chain  (pulling out of my @$$, but...)  But the thing is, we're planning to have masternodes serve up the blockchain for our users (also will still need to be on hand for miners)  So eventually, users will only need to use a lightweight blockchain while the miners and masternodes will keep the ledger decentralized and in check. (and of course, anyone else who wishes to keep a copy).

Also, stonehedge, anyone could at least study the way DS works, or get someone they trust to look into it and get at least the idea reviewed for themselves.  True, you can't see if the code has flaws, but you can extensively test it in testnet (without any risks) and see how it performs.  So I think your financial dude is a bit myopic and not seeing the big picture.  We are also a small community here.  We know whom we trust (really trust) and it's as good as we can get it.  Yet, I'll bet my life, yes my life, that we as a community can figure out whom to trust better than any business out there in the "normal world".

All pump and dumpers are scammers trying to bleed newbs.  That's the only way money gets into the system for them to win. They always hurt crypto coins when they do that as well, all cryptos.  But there are bad players everywhere, and I dare say the subject is easily written on every wall, all over the floors and on the ceilings, so anyone who gets burned in that game should have known better.  Point being, we have all kinds here, yet as in the real world (outside cryptos) we, as a whole, can figure out what's what

Actually if the SEC is serious about crypto falling under SEC rules and guide-lines....If Kristov Atlas was to find that DRK had an issue and then sold his coins before he made the annoucment, he would be commiting a felony. Selling his coins after the annoucment would not be an issue as he would be in the same market as the rest of us. Attempting to make a profit on insider knowledge is illegal. I seriously doubht he would take that risk.

Committing a felony?  Oh brother.  He can say anything he wants, sell anything he wants whenever he wants and there would be no penalties.  Altcoins are not regulated by the SEC so insider trading laws do not apply.   He could find a trojan horse, key logger, etc...  say nothing about it and there is nothing anyone could do. 

[dotnetmin]

What crypto really needs are new people coming to the markets.
Momentary all people once lost money on crypto ( and these are the
majoraty  ) have already left or will left the crypto markets.
If new people will come back for what reason ever they will find out that
DRK is one of the cryptos with future and things will be good for DRK
Momentary its summer time and all markets gernerally are low.
If the market will not recover until december crypto has done.
Too much scam and bad behaviour in the scene to attract people
to enter these markets.

EDIT: the same time i write mine above and did send it i have to read the bullshit from our TOP FUDer.
Exactly this is why we not get new people to crytpo. A bunch of ASSHOLES and loosers.

Play your game as long until you are alone with your fucking bullshit !!!

[alex-ru]

Now the thing we might be interested in is the probability of someone just tracing a transaction without any malicious masternode involved, then we can use Evan's numbers from this post:

Does this diagram mean that with 1 round mixing for 2 users - coins are traceable (related to ours) with 50% chance?
So in simplified model, to make our coins 99% chance untraceable we need to mix it with at least 99 other Darkcoin's users? Is it correct?

If DS+ works as intended it means that there's an equal possibility that either party could own the prior money from the viewpoint of the blockchain after 1 round of mixing. Even then there's plausible deniability from future transactions. With more rounds of DS+ things get much harder to track, for example 8 rounds of DS+, there's 2^8 users with an equal likelihood of owning the prior money (256 possible users). With 3 participants per join, there's 3^8 users (6561).

DS+ just removes the blockchain as being used as proof that any user did anything with absolute certainty, which is our goal.

Now remember you can send already mixed coins for additional rounds of mixing, now remember that even with a single round of mixing, you are basically just guessing since there is no direct link, and also the mixing and the spending are done at completely different times so you cant do timing analysis and check if some address decreased the same amount of coins  some other address increased, that just wouldn't work with Darksend+.  So I think you are left just with guessing and with any anonymity approach you take  guessing is always an option, so that means in my opinion Darksend+ is as good as it gets while keeping a practical solution.  Like AlexGR said you could do 16 rounds divided in two 8 round iterations in fact you can do 32 rounds divided in 4 separate 8 round iterations, nothing stops you from doing this if you are that worried.  Since people seem to like edge cases, lets say we do 32 rounds of mixing with 3 participants, using Evans logic above that would be 3^32, that means there would be a 0.0000000000000053965% chance of someone tracing a transaction.  This is all above my pay grade, but that is how I understand it, maybe others can confirm.

As well as I get it,
To simplify, let’s look at 1 round DarkSend with 2 participants

Before:
A(Alice)=16DRK
B(Bob)=17DRK

After - denominated to new addresses:
X1=10DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X2=10DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X3=5DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X4=5DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X5=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X6=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)
X7=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s)

Looks like it is problem with future spendings - if Bob decide to spend all his DRK with 1 transaction:

X2 + X4 + X6 + X7 = 17DRK -> sent to some new address
Such transaction will tell us with 100% probability that:

X2+X4+X6+X7 = Bob’s coins
and
X1+X3+X5 = Alice’s coins


So if I am not wrong -  not to harm probability - amount of your future spending must be no more than the total balance of any user you a mixing with.

Hope that with lots of participants and rounds - this probability will go reasonable low.

But with lots of participants and rounds and denominations DarkCoin will face another problem - huge Blockchain’s size.

Hope this problems aren’t fatal and have some solution.

[g4q34g4qg47ww]

shojayxt

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Hahaha this feature makes my day so much nicer

[stonehedge]

shojayxt

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Hahaha this feature makes my day so much nicer

I love the fact that he is probably insulting me or others right now and I can't even see it.

I had a post deleted the other day because I quoted one of his posts!

[Lebubar]

shojayxt

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