Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB

[un_ordinateur]

Okay...

This morning I checked my payouts... and there was nothing.  Nothing but a measly 0.39BTC for four days of mining.  
$15,750 had been taken from me!  Distributed to the pool!  Not one extra bitcoin was given to me for having the miner that did the work.

How could you think you'd get anything more? That's the WHOLE point of pooled mining: getting regular, small payments, instead of gambling for a BIG payout you'd probably never get anyway.

Also, you protest about things not being clear, but according to the first sentence on Eligius FAQ page "Whenever a block is found, the most recent 25 BTC worth of unpaid shares are paid." If all the coins found in the block are sent to payed shares, then the finder gets nothing more. And according to the first sentence in the bitcoin wiki's article about pooled mining: "Pooled mining is a mining approach where multiple generating clients contribute to the generation of a block, and then split the block reward according the contributed processing power."

"Not one extra bitcoin was given to me for having the miner that did the work." -> You do realize that the miner that finds the block did not more nor less "work" than any other miner in the pool. It's pure luck. It doesn't deserve anything more.

Then I realized what a Communist plot pool mining is.  You have no chance to rise above your station in life comrade.  Your efforts are for the good of all.  You shall not benefit from your efforts beyond the average level of your hashing power.

And... That is bad? Everybody that mines everywhere contributes to the Bitcoin network, and they all deserve a fair share of the reward. Fair = in proportion of their hashing power. If it did not happen, a lot of people would stop mining out of frustration of mining for months and not finding anything, and the network would be weaker.

It also enables a fair spread of the initial Bitcoin production: the bitcoin economy may only take off if the coins are more or less spread across all the users, instead of a few that hold them all.

It does NOT compare to communism because everybody does have the same merit. Nobody works "harder" that anybody else. Well, you can double your hashrate, then you'll double your reward. But I repeat: The miner that finds the share has not done any more work than the others. It is pure luck.

I will never know the joy of mining a block and receiving the full reward.  I could try mining solo, but I may never see that level of luck again in my lifetime without the aforementioned 100TH of mining power, and the target keeps rising.

You should try a POT (Pay on target) pool like ozcoin. It would suit your desires.

Or, you could update your settings for requesting shares of a lot higher difficulty. You'd find them less often, on average, but they'd pay that much more. Same average/expectation value, but much more influence of luck, so you could win more. (Well, on some other pool, because the reward system of eligius prevents anybody from earning more that 100% PPS.)

In Bitcoin, as in life, the spoils once again go only to the wealthy power-brokers. Satoshi you have failed to create the coin of the common man! This shall be its fatal flaw that will either make Bitcoin fail entirely, or cause it to become just another currency used to manipulate and control the masses.

I don't understand why you say that once again... The pooled mining system spreads the money evenly instead of making a few rich "winners". That is the exact opposite of what you're saying. In any case, it is not satoshi's fault beacause mining pools are built by people on top of Bitcoin; they are not part of bitcoin itself.

Heh, I didn't even get recognition.  

You adress is going to be listed on the blocks page in the column "contributor".

All the gobbledygook about CPPSRB, luck, rounds, etc. made NO sense to me when I was starting out with mining.  All that information is written to inform the already informed.

Everything cryptocurrency related is SEVERELY lacking in clear explanation, even in the WiKis.  Then again, I find ANYTHING that even vaguely relates to cryptography is severely lacking in clarity, even with the BEST of efforts.

So are most textbooks on pretty much every bit of human knowledge. It takes time to write good introductory texts for any topic. And Bitcoin is still in it's beginning! But the best way to learn about something is to try it hands on! But you should check the udemy course on bitcoin. It's really not bad and explains a lot. https://www.udemy.com/bitcoin-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-crypto/?sl=E0cddzFTKn1uFFkoCkA%3D

[1715232042]

1715232042

[bizzyb]

To all those that think our friend WizKid should charge a fee:

DONATE

I am running a puny 475Ghs setup compared to most of you. I donate 1% to each category. My system is also running MinePeon for 127Ghs of the total so it donates 15 minutes a day.

Our friends do not arbitrarily charge us for things but they would like us to willingly help out where we can. Think of it this way if a friend drives you around because your car is in the shop, you are going to maturely offer him/her gas money and maybe dinner for their troubles.

Thanks,
Shawn

The reality for me is donating is a faff.
Happy to pay a fee if things improve but for now have moved my 3th because I want regular payouts and stable stats.
Would prefer to stay as I have a lot of respect for the work lkj and WK carry out "as a hobby".
Look forward to a default fee and the inevitable improvements.

[btmtb]

You should try a POT (Pay on target) pool like ozcoin. It would suit your desires.

You hit the nail on the head so many points. Someone obviously doesn't realise where his payments have been coming from for all those weeks where he hasn't 'done all the hard work' and found a block. On a side note, I don't believe Ozcoin offers POT anymore, it does still mention POT on the home page which I think this just hasn't been updated in forever, the actual user configurable pool options state:

Payout Method
Double Geometric Method (DGM)
Note: Only DGM available currently.

Not sure if any other pools offer POT?

[mdude77]

...even with the BEST of efforts.

I mine on bitparking now, and block finders get the reward of all transaction fees for that block. it's DGM and rounds can be long and arduous, but it's worth it.

I don't follow?  Eligius's home page says this:

Code:

Pool pays transaction fees to miners. 

Is that not accurate?

M

[raskul]

...even with the BEST of efforts.

I mine on bitparking now, and block finders get the reward of all transaction fees for that block. it's DGM and rounds can be long and arduous, but it's worth it.

I don't follow?  Eligius's home page says this:

Code:

Pool pays transaction fees to miners. 

Is that not accurate?

M

I never said anything about Eligius not paying tx fees. So yes it should be accurate and I'm not going to speculate on differences of opinion.
The actual difference lies in the fact that tx fees are divided on Eligius, on BP, all tx fees are paid as a bonus to the block finder. i merely mentioned this, as TodaysGandalf seemed to have a minor issue with the fact that he was a block finder, and received no bonus reward for being. BP addresses this.

[mdude77]

I never said anything about Eligius not paying tx fees. So yes it should be accurate and I'm not going to speculate on differences of opinion.
The actual difference lies in the fact that tx fees are divided on Eligius, on BP, all tx fees are paid as a bonus to the block finder. i merely mentioned this, as TodaysGandalf seemed to have a minor issue with the fact that he was a block finder, and received no bonus reward for being. BP addresses this.

I'm sorry, I misread what you wrote.

I suggest p2pool do the same... and was promptly informed that it goes against the purpose of Bitcoin.  As time goes by (as each halving occurs), the blockreward for miners decreases.  That means the incentive to mine relies upon transaction fees increasing.  Which means any pool that distributes transaction fees to the finder is going to have a problem.

I agree it'd be nice for the block finder to get some sort of reward ... however in the day and age of 4.2billion BTC difficulty, the only way little guys can stay in are with an even (yet proportional) distribution among all pool members.  Otherwise it'll just be the big guys, which will likely be corporations.

M

[raskul]

I never said anything about Eligius not paying tx fees. So yes it should be accurate and I'm not going to speculate on differences of opinion.
The actual difference lies in the fact that tx fees are divided on Eligius, on BP, all tx fees are paid as a bonus to the block finder. i merely mentioned this, as TodaysGandalf seemed to have a minor issue with the fact that he was a block finder, and received no bonus reward for being. BP addresses this.

I'm sorry, I misread what you wrote.

I suggest p2pool do the same... and was promptly informed that it goes against the purpose of Bitcoin.  As time goes by (as each halving occurs), the blockreward for miners decreases.  That means the incentive to mine relies upon transaction fees increasing.  Which means any pool that distributes transaction fees to the finder is going to have a problem.

I agree it'd be nice for the block finder to get some sort of reward ... however in the day and age of 4.2billion BTC difficulty, the only way little guys can stay in are with an even (yet proportional) distribution among all pool members.  Otherwise it'll just be the big guys, which will likely be corporations.

M

I agree with you in most of what you say, being my own preference to now mine on a DGM pool, whether better or worse, is a choice i've recently taken. With regards to the finders bonus, well, for me it is irrelevant really, for the specific reasons you state above; with only 170GH/s I am too small and will never be a block finder under current and future difficulty - except for some freakish luck, which I doubt will ever occur. But isn't it the case, as BTC price rises, tx fees need to be smaller - nobody wants to be paying an exponential fee to send bitcoins. this would in the end make it cheaper to use a credit card for purchases, which goes against the purpose intended for bitcoin in the first instance?

I'll remain with my thinking that giving the block finder a bonus is a good thing, even though I will never see that bonus personally, I think it gives extra incentive to mine.

[mdude77]

I agree with you in most of what you say, being my own preference to now mine on a DGM pool, whether better or worse, is a choice i've recently taken. With regards to the finders bonus, well, for me it is irrelevant really, for the specific reasons you state above; with only 170GH/s I am too small and will never be a block finder under current and future difficulty - except for some freakish luck, which I doubt will ever occur. But isn't it the case, as BTC price rises, tx fees need to be smaller - nobody wants to be paying an exponential fee to send bitcoins. this would in the end make it cheaper to use a credit card for purchases, which goes against the purpose intended for bitcoin in the first instance?

I'll remain with my thinking that giving the block finder a bonus is a good thing, even though I will never see that bonus personally, I think it gives extra incentive to mine.

I agree about tx fees having to be smaller.  The hope is the volume of tx fees increases to keep the incentive there for miners.  Of course what could happen is as the block rewards continues to halve, if transaction volume doesn't increase, the incentive to mine decreases, which should lead to a decrease in difficulty.  But, as Gavin says, we don't know what's going to happen.  It's an experiment.

M

[raskul]

I agree with you...
I'll remain with my thinking that giving the block finder a bonus is a good thing, even though I will never see that bonus personally, I think it gives extra incentive to mine.

I agree about tx fees having to be smaller.  The hope is the volume of tx fees increases to keep the incentive there for miners.  Of course what could happen is as the block rewards continues to halve, if transaction volume doesn't increase, the incentive to mine decreases, which should lead to a decrease in difficulty.  But, as Gavin says, we don't know what's going to happen.  It's an experiment.

M

an exciting experiment. I think difficulty decrease is inevitable - well, eventually; hence why I i'll be stashing away my old rig when it becomes a loss leader (not long to go now!) I see friends cutting their losses and selling their old 130nm mining equipment off, but i'm hedging my bets on this, i'll still be mining for the very last 0.00000001 transaction fee, because i'm a geek and I believe in the long term value. Eventually, the big farms will be forced to switch off and - here's my hope - their respective governments sting them a whacking great tax on the recycling of electronic goods. That'll teach them for being so greedy  one can but hope.

[wpgdeez]

Tried the pool out last night, had a nice solid connection but the payout method concerns me.

[lost7]

The pool I'm using just got 3orphans blocks.. so annoying!

I'll go solo mining with 300kh/s

[JLebowskiTheDude]

In Bitcoin, as in life, the spoils once again go only to the wealthy power-brokers.  Satoshi you have failed to create the coin of the common man!

You are now blacklisted from Eligius and Hop Sing's for naming names.  

[JLebowskiTheDude]

Stats have been down for like 48 hours, now the site is completely down. That's just unnaceptable for one of the largest pools, or really any site at all. I just am skeptical that this is all being used as a front for pool operators absconding with coins that should have gone to the miners. Admittedly I have a hard time trusting Christians or "altruists".

I'm moving my miners off Eligius. May come back if things improve but this is ridiculous.

Some of you really need to get a grasp on what's going on.

The servers for the pool itself have been solidly operating for ...months?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.  I think there was a very small pool outage for a few minutes time like maybe 4 or 5 months ago.  Other than that, the pool itself has been utterly solid.  Shares are being accepted and work is flowing as it should to the miners.  

The server for the front end stats has had some issues from time to time.  I, for one, care not.  Are there miners out there that only monitor their hardware via pool statistics?  That seems backasswards to me.

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

If that's putting anyone here in a bind.... ouch.  Just ouch.  Anyone in that situation, post an address.  I have some gratis coupons to fast food joints I'll mail you and some boxes of stuff from our recent Subscribe and Save order, because you're probably near homeless and starving?

[mdude77]

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

According to the current payout queue, the top 5 are 1+ month old.  And I think someone stated that there was finally a payout recently where a LOT of folks were finally paid.  So I'm not sure the "months" statement is wrong.  (But I am new here..)

M

[Luke-Jr]

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

According to the current payout queue, the top 5 are 1+ month old.

Because they hadn't met their configured minimum payouts sooner.

[freebit13]

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

According to the current payout queue, the top 5 are 1+ month old.  And I think someone stated that there was finally a payout recently where a LOT of folks were finally paid.  So I'm not sure the "months" statement is wrong.  (But I am new here..)

M

The time shown in the payout queue is slightly misleading. What it is actually showing is the time of the first share accepted after their last payout. It's effectively the date of their last payout. So, if I get a payout every couple of days; when I hit my payout limit, I'll be pushed into the queue ahead of those who get a payout every day.

[mdude77]

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

According to the current payout queue, the top 5 are 1+ month old.  And I think someone stated that there was finally a payout recently where a LOT of folks were finally paid.  So I'm not sure the "months" statement is wrong.  (But I am new here..)

M

The time shown in the payout queue is slightly misleading. What it is actually showing is the time of the first share accepted after their last payout. It's effectively the date of their last payout. So, if I get a payout every couple of days; when I hit my payout limit, I'll be pushed into the queue ahead of those who get a payout every day.

Thanks, my newness to this pool is showing.

However, the payout queue does say there is 438 BTC waiting to be paid out in 18 blocks.  Maybe that's not a lot to you, but it is a huge amount to me.

M

[Littleshop]

I learned a lesson today that disenchanted me with Eligius, pool mining and Bitcoin in general.

Last night, one of my miners found a block.  Hope against hope, it found a block!    With only 1.2TH at my command, with odds of five quadrillion to one, it found a block!  I briefly did the Snoopy happy dance.  25BTC!  That's $15,750!  The things I could do with that amount of money.  I could pay for the miners I had gone into debt to purchase and still have a nice chiunk of pocket change!  Stats were still offline so I couldn't see the impact.  I went to bed.

This morning I checked my payouts... and there was nothing.  Nothing but a measly 0.39BTC for four days of mining.  
$15,750 had been taken from me!  Distributed to the pool!  Not one extra bitcoin was given to me for having the miner that did the work.  Then I realized what a Communist plot pool mining is.  You have no chance to rise above your station in life comrade.  Your efforts are for the good of all.  You shall not benefit from your efforts beyond the average level of your hashing power.

I guess you do not understand the concept of a pool.  Every payment you get when you do not find a block is the counter argument.  There have been pools that paid the actual finder of the block a little more which reduces everyone elses payment.  So if you prefer that type of pool go ahead.  Or you can mine here and make a small 1000-1 odds bet at Satoshi dice each day if you want that extra thrill. 

[gorgatron]

Topic change!

I've started working on a pool desktop app. It's moving along pretty smooth except for the site unavailability hampering testing. The model is mostly done. All I have left to code up is pulling in the mined block data. I implemented both the historic api and WizKid's new api. Here's a screen shot of it pulling in my user stats.
https://i.imgur.com/5cFrgte.jpg
Here's one with the pool hashrate.
https://i.imgur.com/r906ONA.jpg

Doesn't look like much, but this part was the bitch. Once that's finished, the fun part begins. I'll work on the controller and then slap a view together. It'll start off simple. I'll have it just mimic the site but with one addition. I'll add the ability to set a min hashrate. If your hashrate falls below the min, I can have a giant window popup with a klaxon blaring. Once I get something simple done, I can add options, configurations, data analysis, skins,.... like a desktop widget displaying just your hashrate or have it run as a service simply checking your hashrate or payout, like a cha ching sound can play with a popup when you get paid, or a notification that you entered the payout queue.  Things like that.

This pool is pretty darn open and supplies lots of data. I don't fully understand what all the data means/represents so I'll probably need help with compiling them into useful things.

I can't mimic the nice graphs. The api doesn't supply a user's hashrate history. The best resolution for data is 1 minute for user stats.  So, I could make my own graph overtime while the app runs, but I think that is stupid.  It also doesn't supply individual worker info. I could use WebViewClient to load your user stat page then inject some javascript to display just the graphs and worker info in my app.  But, I've never done this and don't want to be pulling out my hair trying to get it to work.  So, if anyone knows how to do this, code it up and pass it along. 

I'll try to throw a quick android app together. I haven't messed with Android since Froyo so I'll be pretty much relearning it.  I have some Android knowledgeable friends at work that could knock something out rather quickly.  I'll copy off the slush pool app.  It's clean and simple.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eiabea.btcdroid

Also, if you own a chumby or infocast, I can throw something together for that too.  Leave it by your TV or on your desk and let it monitor. Here's a hack I did for the infocast. I got JBox2d to run on it.

http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=8333

Any requests, suggestions, or help is more than welcome.

Oh, also, when wizkid took the stats down, some of the api's were still available. So, some of the features that will be in this app would have still worked.

Resume bitching!

I'm curious to test out your work. just saw your post. i choose not to understand code, so the images might as have been Sumerian Cuneiform on clay tablets. having stats on the desktop would be nice when I just want to have a quick glance. best of luck on the finished product!

[Biomech]

There have also been a few small delays in payouts.  I read one post here recently that suggested the delay was months?  Maybe I misread it.

Uh.....no.  The delay has been - AT MOST - a few days time.  

According to the current payout queue, the top 5 are 1+ month old.  And I think someone stated that there was finally a payout recently where a LOT of folks were finally paid.  So I'm not sure the "months" statement is wrong.  (But I am new here..)

M

It's wrong. The stats show what it believes to be true right this minute. I've been here for about three months now, and aside from this recent run of luck with the front end, it's been paid within an hour of my threshold almost every time. When it does get fubar, Wizkid always does a manual payout as soon as the system is caught up. Like within minutes sometimes. The longest I ever saw it go was two days past my payout threshold. For the guys with big hashpower, that may have equated to 3-4 DAYS delay. Not months.

In my time here there have been zero problems with the server regardless of what the stats page was doing. This recent one where the namecoins got jacked has been the worst I've seen, and that's minor. (though still unfixed on my setup )