Crimea

[Matt_W]

OK. Who knows - everyone seen, what has happened in Sochi - now there are international resort of top class. I have been there for Olympic games. I would never forget it!
And I heard, that Crimea for last years has no money to grow up and only degraded. Maybe now it would become a kind of delicious resort, how do you think? Russia has much more opportunities, than Ukraine to develop Crimea.

[Balthazar]

Russia has much more opportunities, than Ukraine to develop Crimea.

Ukraine never tried to develop anything here. That's why an economy and infrastructure appears like "greetings from 1980s" now... People just tired of this ignorance from Kiev's staff.

[general lee]

Ukraine abandon its nuclear arsenal to Russia, so Russia should be honest and respect borders.  

[general lee]

I think that Russia broke Budapesht treaty of 1994

How much people are listening the EU & US propaganda? Remember that you have to read something about the subject before making any conclusions. Don't trust any media, they are almost all just liars and manipulators.

They are trying to exploit people's ignorance while claiming that Budapest Memorandum guarantees anything. It does not, because it's just a piece of paper.

Any treaty, memorandum or legislation does not apply until it has been ratified by all sides of deal. Neither Ukrainian nor Russian side have not been ratified this document. The USA and UK didn't ratified this memorandum too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification

This memorandum never had any power, so it can't be broken... Even if it would be ratified, USA broke it a long time ago and multiple times.

Have you seen russian propaganda? "it is not our forces in Crime, we do not know who is it" RT - really propaganda chanell. Do you think they will  develop Crime? I think it will be big military base? For russians it is also bad, 1 eur-50 rub, 3 mounth ago it was 42. So all prices wil grow in 15%. USA need George Bush

[Balthazar]

Have you seen russian propaganda? "it is not our forces in Crime, we do not know who is it" RT - really propaganda chanell.

This still doesn't mean that Budapest memorandum has been ratified. So any sentence related to budapest memorandum violations is a lie.

Just like BBC, FoxNews or CNN the RT contains some propaganda too, of course. Only idiot would try to deny that.

Of course it's not a crime, because they have an authorization from Ukrainian government. Bases of the Black Sea fleet are located here and they are allowed to have up to 25000 troops, and troops are allowed to move on the peninsula territory. It's allowed by agreement between Ukraine and Russia, which was signed in 1993.

The real crime it's a lying about "invasion" or occupation, which never happened.

Do you think they will  develop Crime?

A lot of money already has been invested. A republican budget was more than doubled since declaration of independence, so some progress is definately coming.

Some of changes already announced:

It's planned to build a Kerch's bridge to maintain a connection between Crimea and the rest of Russia;
It's planned to build two new power stations.

$14 billion already has been dedicated for this work.

I think it will be big military base?

An entire peninsula is already a big military base since 1940s.

For russians it is also bad, 1 eur-50 rub, 3 mounth ago it was 42. So all prices wil grow in 15%. USA need George Bush

It has no relation with recent events, USD and EUR price grown because of changes in CB policy.

USA need George Bush

Bush is an idiot, Obama much smarter.

[BitOnyx]

Well Russia is well known for respecting human rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ8do57JGLc  I love this video because this dude on left is international observer who keep saying how great and democratic elections were.


I just hope there wont be war.

[general lee]

Have you seen russian propaganda? "it is not our forces in Crime, we do not know who is it" RT - really propaganda chanell. Do you think they will  develop Crime? I think it will be big military base? For russians it is also bad, 1 eur-50 rub, 3 mounth ago it was 42. So all prices wil grow in 15%. USA need George Bush

This still doesn't mean that Budapest memorandum has been ratified. So any sentence related to budapest memorandum violations is a lie.

Just like BBC, FoxNews or CNN the RT contains some propaganda too, of course. Only idiot would try to deny that.

Do you think they will  develop Crime?

Of course not, because they have an authorization from Ukrainian government. Bases of the Black Sea fleet are located here and they are allowed to have up to 25000 troops, and troops are allowed to move on the peninsula territory. It's allowed by agreement between Ukraine and Russia (it was signed in 1993).

The real crime it's a lying about "invasion" or occupation, which never happened.

I think it will be big military base?

An entire peninsula is already a big military base since 1940s. And it does satisfy all agreements.

For russians it is also bad, 1 eur-50 rub, 3 mounth ago it was 42. So all prices wil grow in 15%. USA need George Bush

It has no relation with recent events, because of changes in CB policy.

USA need George Bush

Bush is an idiot, Obama much smarter.

It is much more propaganda at russian channels. Western channels critic USA and Western countries also. Have you ever seen RT critics Putin or Russia? It is much more pluralism at BBC, FoxNews or CNN. Obama is too soft. USD and EUR price grown because of Ukraine everybody sell russian shares(you can look statistic). It is really depend. Also you can look statistic abour rub during last 3 mnth.

[Balthazar]

It is much more propaganda at russian channels.

There are many differences between propaganda and alternate point of view.

Western channels critic USA and Western countries also.

It's not an excuse for lying or cheap fabrication. We're all have seen it on the western channels during these weeks, and it would be strange to deny that.

Only a few examples:

• Column of ukrainian tanks with "Russian occupation" subtitles on BBC;
• Reports of military exercises on the Russian territory, labeled as "A war in the Ukraine" (FoxNews);
• A constant attempts to exploit people's ignorance (they are misinforming people about Budapest memorandum, black sea fleet agreement and many other things).

And this list could be much longer, just ask me for another examples.

It is much more pluralism at BBC, FoxNews or CNN.

It's just an illusion because their owners are the same.  

Have you ever seen RT critics Putin or Russia?

Of course I've seen it many times. They are getting money for their hard and unsafe work, but they also have editorial independence. Abby Martin proven this many times, for example.

because of Ukraine everybody sell russian shares(you can look statistic).

And that's fine, it's a good opportunity to get some money from panic.

P.S. Previous post has been updated.

[general lee]

I do not agree with you...because there a lot of changes in russian mass media for the last 14 years. Today it is propaganda only. Western mass media also lie sometimes. But opinion borders much more wide than in Russia.

[Balthazar]

I do not agree with you...

It's your choice.

Western mass media also lie sometimes.

They are lying not sometimes, but constantly. And you are a victim of their lie, just remember your message about the budapest memorandum.

But opinion borders much more wide than in Russia.

Sorry, are you joking? There is no excuse for anything like this:

• Column of ukrainian tanks with "Russian occupation" subtitles on BBC;
• Reports of military exercises on the Russian territory, labeled as "A war in the Ukraine" (FoxNews);
• A constant attempts to exploit people's ignorance (they are misinforming people about Budapest memorandum, black sea fleet agreement and many other things).

"He that once deceives is ever suspected", you sholdn't forget this. All of these "Oh no! They are lying but the opinion borders more wide..." are nothing more than acts of self-deception. C'mon, why do you deny this so obvious thing?

[Nemo1024]

Seeing as BBC and CNN saw fit to edit down Putin's address to wrap its message in their favour, here is a digest of the quotes, that actually highlight his intended message:
http://rt.com/news/putin-address-ten-quotes-778/

Oh, and finally some voice of reason heard from Obama:
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-diplomacy-obama-russia-949/
I simply love the term "military excursion" used by him.

While the illegitimate hunta in Kiev keeps on dreaming that is has any form of clout:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/
By the way, a visa regime with Russia would mean that quite a lot of day-workers in the Eastern Ukraine, who earn their bread on Russian soil will have it even more difficult than they do now. Not a wise move, if they want to keep the level of unrest in the Eastern regions to the minimum.

because of Ukraine everybody sell russian shares(you can look statistic).

And that's fine, it's a good opportunity to get some money from panic.

I am buying. Actually sold some BTC to buy Russian equity funds.

Well Russia is well known for respecting human rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ8do57JGLc  I love this video because this dude on left is international observer who keep saying how great and democratic elections were.

I just hope there wont be war.

A budget of about $200 would be needed to create such video anywhere in the world.
Oh, and by the way, I almost got my camera confiscated by an armed security guard in a European mall, when I tried to so some stock photography there.

[joeventyra]

Well Russia is well known for respecting human rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ8do57JGLc  I love this video because this dude on left is international observer who keep saying how great and democratic elections were.


I just hope there wont be war.

Russia does not want a war for sure. And Ukraine is not crazy to start it. The whole thing is about russian people which were living in Ukraine (Crimea).

[Luno]

Seeing as BBC and CNN saw fit to edit down Putin's address to wrap its message in their favour, here is a digest of the quotes, that actually highlight his intended message:
http://rt.com/news/putin-address-ten-quotes-778/

Oh, and finally some voice of reason heard from Obama:
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-diplomacy-obama-russia-949/
I simply love the term "military excursion" used by him.

While the illegitimate hunta in Kiev keeps on dreaming that is has any form of clout:
http://rt.com/news/urkaine-cis-visa-demilitarized-917/
By the way, a visa regime with Russia would mean that quite a lot of day-workers in the Eastern Ukraine, who earn their bread on Russian soil will have it even more difficult than they do now. Not a wise move, if they want to keep the level of unrest in the Eastern regions to the minimum.

I've have been following this thread as I try to follow the progression of the events in Crimea. One thing I don't understand is this strong Russian Patritism expressed here? If you are Russian, why do you feel that your personal honour is at risk here?
ut
It's ok to blaim the US for a lot of things, but why resort to nationalist consciousness as an argument?
Is this a Russian tradition, second WW patriotism? It's like soccer hooligans?

Why is this important to you?

 

[Balthazar]

And Ukraine is not crazy to start it.

These "Svoboda" zombies are crazy enough, that's why I wouldn't be so sure about that. Will see...

[Balthazar]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/19/associated-press-removes-ukraine-dateline-crimea-stories

[general lee]

It is much more propaganda at russian channels.

There are many differences between propaganda and alternate point of view.

Western channels critic USA and Western countries also.

It's not an excuse for lying or cheap fabrication. We're all have seen it on the western channels during these weeks, and it would be strange to deny that.

Only a few examples:

• Column of ukrainian tanks with "Russian occupation" subtitles on BBC;
• Reports of military exercises on the Russian territory, labeled as "A war in the Ukraine" (FoxNews);
• A constant attempts to exploit people's ignorance (they are misinforming people about Budapest memorandum, black sea fleet agreement and many other things).

And this list could be much longer, just ask me for another examples.

It is much more pluralism at BBC, FoxNews or CNN.

It's just an illusion because their owners are the same.  

Have you ever seen RT critics Putin or Russia?

Of course I've seen it many times. They are getting money for their hard and unsafe work, but they also have editorial independence. Abby Martin proven this many times, for example.

because of Ukraine everybody sell russian shares(you can look statistic).

And that's fine, it's a good opportunity to get some money from panic.

P.S. Previous post has been updated.

There is no excuse for this also:

- call all people at Maidan banderas, fascists etc.
- said that troops with no id are not russian and we do not khow who are they
- said that Berkut has no weapon
- said that Ukrain is not a country

[bryant.coleman]

- call all people at Maidan banderas, fascists etc.
- said that troops with no id are not russian and we do not khow who are they
- said that Berkut has no weapon
- said that Ukrain is not a country

- they were fascists
- they are not Russian, they were Ukrainian citizens
- the Berkut didn't used any weapons other than batons
- "Ukrain" is not a country. May be Ukraine is.

[Nemo1024]

I've have been following this thread as I try to follow the progression of the events in Crimea. One thing I don't understand is this strong Russian Patritism expressed here? If you are Russian, why do you feel that your personal honour is at risk here?
ut
It's ok to blaim the US for a lot of things, but why resort to nationalist consciousness as an argument?
Is this a Russian tradition, second WW patriotism? It's like soccer hooligans?

Why is this important to you?

All very good and important questions and I will try to answer them from my standing point. I cannot answer for all Russians (and by that I don't mean just ethnic Russians, but people from other ethnic groups, who identify themselves with Russia). Different individuals would have different views on the matter.

First let me to correct some terminology: not "nationalist consciousness", but "national consciousness", or "patriotic pride".

Patriotism is good as long as it does not come at the expense of other nations. Russians have a historic, almost genetic, need to stick together. It is rooted much further back in the history than the World Wars, probably starting with Tatar-Mongol invasions. You either stick together in the face of an external threat of you seize to exist as a distinct nation. Russians themselves would love nothing more than being left alone, yet that privilege has always been denied them by constant prodding both military and political.

Russians would be the first to admit and highlight the failures and faults of their leaders, criticize them. (I myself was furious with Putin's handling of Pussy Riot girls - they should have got not more than 15 days and a fine for disorderly behaviour!) Yet Russians would not see kindly to an outside power (especially an outside power with its own agenda) doing the same. The ranks would close and it would generally result in the previously-critisized leader getting more internal support. That's a reaction that gives Russians a chance to survive.

Finally, there is pride in ones history, in having history, however hard that history was, because a nation without a history, is not a nation.

[Nemo1024]

- call all people at Maidan banderas, fascists etc.
- said that troops with no id are not russian and we do not khow who are they
- said that Berkut has no weapon
- said that Ukrain is not a country

- they were fascists
- they are not Russian, they were Ukrainian citizens
- the Berkut didn't used any weapons other than batons
- "Ukrain" is not a country. May be Ukraine is.

A small, but very important correction to the first point:
No one called all people at Maidan for Bandera supporters, until Fascists turned up in February.
Before the provocations started, the Maidan meet-up was a legitimate form of citizen protest/demonstration for/against EU integration and against corruption in the government. And no one used force against those citizens. Then banderas started mixing in, provocations and beating up of militia started. Same scenario as theone used in arab countries: turn a legal peaceful protest into a violent one.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/19/associated-press-removes-ukraine-dateline-crimea-stories

There's and interesting reader comment there:

Actually, "the Russians" being nice was the reason the CIA slaughtered people after the Feb. 21 agreement was signed. Just watched a documentary on the Romania revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF-LSrsd0fw&list=PL9EB1397CF580EB12. It interviews several CIA and Romanian Securitate describing why snipers were used after Ceausescu fell to give more legitimacy to the incoming government in Bucharest.
In the case of Ukraine, when the military and police refused to be provoked by the violence of the protestors victims were created to consolidate a new regime. It would have been hard to give the nationalists security posts otherwise. Both the population and western media might have found them distasteful.
Why else would the US veto the Russian demand for an independent inquiry at the UN Security Council? If the former government was responsible it could only help the new government take control of the army and police.
Most people aren't fools and if they have an interest in Kiev they are probably quite aware of the CIA's crime. But what would you have them do since we who live closer to these criminal governments don't seem to give a crap?

[Luno]

I've have been following this thread as I try to follow the progression of the events in Crimea. One thing I don't understand is this strong Russian Patritism expressed here? If you are Russian, why do you feel that your personal honour is at risk here?
ut
It's ok to blaim the US for a lot of things, but why resort to nationalist consciousness as an argument?
Is this a Russian tradition, second WW patriotism? It's like soccer hooligans?

Why is this important to you?

All very good and important questions and I will try to answer them from my standing point. I cannot answer for all Russians (and by that I don't mean just ethnic Russians, but people from other ethnic groups, who identify themselves with Russia). Different individuals would have different views on the matter.

First let me to correct some terminology: not "nationalist consciousness", but "national consciousness", or "patriotic pride".

Patriotism is good as long as it does not come at the expense of other nations. Russians have a historic, almost genetic, need to stick together. It is rooted much further back in the history than the World Wars, probably starting with Tatar-Mongol invasions. You either stick together in the face of an external threat of you seize to exist as a distinct nation. Russians themselves would love nothing more than being left alone, yet that privilege has always been denied them by constant prodding both military and political.

Russians would be the first to admit and highlight the failures and faults of their leaders, criticize them. (I myself was furious with Putin's handling of Pussy Riot girls - they should have got not more than 15 days and a fine for disorderly behaviour!) Yet Russians would not see kindly to an outside power (especially an outside power with its own agenda) doing the same. The ranks would close and it would generally result in the previously-critisized leader getting more internal support. That's a reaction that gives Russians a chance to survive.

Finally, there is pride in ones history, in having history, however hard that history was, because a nation without a history, is not a nation.

Thank you, so it's an ethnic thing also? It never occurred to me, to think that being Russian also was cultural heritage.
But that's maybe just me. I'm Danish and while expressing too profound national pride is considered slightly right wing extremist here, there never have been much self definition, in Denmark, from the fact that we are a nation. So I was brought up differently, I guess?

Using the same disclaimer as you.: I'm not sure my view’s are representative of Danes view's of nationalism.

It's not like we are against the "state" as a principle but we feel uncomfortable thinking about being lead by someone, or viewing our selves as special because of nationality.

I know that Americans ( a lot of them at least) feel as strongly as Russians about their history so maybe it's just different if you are a citizen in a country that consider it self a super power?