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Author Topic: [∞ YH] solo.ckpool.org 2% fee solo mining 257 blocks solved!  (Read 19848 times)
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July 21, 2020, 06:33:56 PM
 #661

Hi All ...

What would be the 'best' machine to buy (in bulk) for a farm? ...

Electricity would not be an issue, nor would cost of said electricity. The best value for money so that mining on these pools would be a beneficial effort.

Any advice would be great. i/we are more GPU Miners, and ASIC is still a fresh consideration for the money to be invested into hardware. As i see a few of these miners have issues with connection and meddling with settings to hook up, but most seem to be a PlugnPlay scenario.

Thanks In Advance,

#crysx

IF electricity is free, the T17+ 58TH / 61TH are good bang for buck at around $900 currently, also S17e 60TH which are similar price and will give ROI in around 210-250 days depending on shipping cost (assuming difficulty doesn't change much).
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July 21, 2020, 10:26:36 PM
 #662

the T17+ 58TH / 61TH are good bang for buck at around $900 currently, also S17e 60TH which are similar price and will give ROI in around 210-250 days depending on shipping cost (assuming difficulty doesn't change much).

How is 250 days to ROI a " good bang for buck", it's more like how to waste your money in 250 days, plus those prices are in China, so you are looking for 100-200$ for shipping, still have tax and all that, but let's be optistmic and say it's a $1100 (no tax) for T17+ 61TH.

Daily profit = $4.65
Monthly = $139.5

$1100/ 139.5 = just about 8 months.

1- It's unlikely that difficulty won't go any higher despite what the price does for a period of 8 months.
2- It's HIGHLY unlikely that the gear will have 0% failure for a period of 8 months.

So my concnsulion which I am willing to take a bet on is that you will need at least a whole year to ROI that IF EVER, unless of course, bitcoin goes to 30-50k in no time, and still in that case holding BTC would be a better option.

Someone with free electity should go with an used S9, so a few offers for $25-$30 including PSU in the U.S , that's 30 days to ROI if you have free power, be on the safe side and count 2 months to ROI , it's 2 months Vs 8 months (the best case sncerio of all those 17series), also statstically speaking, a used S9 has higher chance to run for 2 months straight than a T17/S17 to run for 8 months.

But again everybody treats the mining business in a different way, my main method has been focusing on ROI in the first place, based on factors that include difficulty, price uncertainty, gears failure, and etc. the safest route you take when investing in mining IMO is how fast will you get your money back before "the shit hits the fan", I still remember those 1st/2nd S17 batches, those who paid $4000 nearly 14 months ago, they paid just about a WHOLE BTC thinking they would ROI in 6-8 months, and we all know how it ended up for most of them.

I am not trying to discourage anybody here, but newbies should be aware that mining isn't a game anymore, it's a business and most people lose money doing business, and those who have no clue about running a business shouldn't be mining anymore, unless you are doing it for fun.

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July 21, 2020, 10:33:21 PM
 #663

the T17+ 58TH / 61TH are good bang for buck at around $900 currently, also S17e 60TH which are similar price and will give ROI in around 210-250 days depending on shipping cost (assuming difficulty doesn't change much).

How is 250 days to ROI a " good bang for buck", it's more like how to waste your money in 250 days, plus those prices are in China, so you are looking for 100-200$ for shipping, still have tax and all that, but let's be optistmic and say it's a $1100 (no tax) for T17+ 61TH.

Daily profit = $4.65
Monthly = $139.5

$1100/ 139.5 = just about 8 months.

1- It's unlikely that difficulty won't go any higher despite what the price does for a period of 8 months.
2- It's HIGHLY unlikely that the gear will have 0% failure for a period of 8 months.

So my concnsulion which I am willing to take a bet on is that you will need at least a whole year to ROI that IF EVER, unless of course, bitcoin goes to 30-50k in no time, and still in that case holding BTC would be a better option.

Someone with free electity should go with an used S9, so a few offers for $25-$30 including PSU in the U.S , that's 30 days to ROI if you have free power, be on the safe side and count 2 months to ROI , it's 2 months Vs 8 months (the best case sncerio of all those 17series), also statstically speaking, a used S9 has higher chance to run for 2 months straight than a T17/S17 to run for 8 months.

But again everybody treats the mining business in a different way, my main method has been focusing on ROI in the first place, based on factors that include difficulty, price uncertainty, gears failure, and etc. the safest route you take when investing in mining IMO is how fast will you get your money back before "the shit hits the fan", I still remember those 1st/2nd S17 batches, those who paid $4000 nearly 14 months ago, they paid just about a WHOLE BTC thinking they would ROI in 6-8 months, and we all know how it ended up for most of them.

I am not trying to discourage anybody here, but newbies should be aware that mining isn't a game anymore, it's a business and most people lose money doing business, and those who have no clue about running a business shouldn't be mining anymore, unless you are doing it for fun.

Mikey is right all of the above is very good advice for anyone thinking of getting into the mining game unless it's for fun or learning I do not see the point in splashing serious money on it, you may find it will be better to just use the funds to buy coins instead of paying a electric bill each month just spend what you would have spent of electricity on coins it will not be long before you stack up a decent amount of bitcoin.

I can vouch that even trying to build out a small mine was hard for me thought power cost was the main factor in having to close.

I also have some miners up for sale if your interested nothing special some V9's L3++ D3 and A3's but if it's for learning mikey is right get yourself a cheap S9 or similar.

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry". Satoshi Nakamoto
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July 22, 2020, 01:48:11 PM
 #664

Free/low power I’d look at an M10. Without pulling up a calc you’d should get more than double the coin with better stock efficiency than s9. Though ROI wise would be longer yet would/should out perform in revenue (pending cost) in six months. I’m still big on starting with gekko products to begin but s9’s are incredibly cheap and low risk as an entry unit. Which anything under de minimis is duty/tariff free, considering the quality issues of the 17 series though some batches were well made it a fairly risky purchase especially as an entrant device.

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July 23, 2020, 07:08:38 PM
 #665

Throwing a good amount of PH at the pool for a little.
Been a little while since we hit...
Lets get it!
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July 23, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Merited by mikeywith (1)
 #666

the T17+ 58TH / 61TH are good bang for buck at around $900 currently, also S17e 60TH which are similar price and will give ROI in around 210-250 days depending on shipping cost (assuming difficulty doesn't change much).

How is 250 days to ROI a " good bang for buck", it's more like how to waste your money in 250 days, plus those prices are in China, so you are looking for 100-200$ for shipping, still have tax and all that, but let's be optistmic and say it's a $1100 (no tax) for T17+ 61TH.

Daily profit = $4.65
Monthly = $139.5

$1100/ 139.5 = just about 8 months.

1- It's unlikely that difficulty won't go any higher despite what the price does for a period of 8 months.
2- It's HIGHLY unlikely that the gear will have 0% failure for a period of 8 months.

So my concnsulion which I am willing to take a bet on is that you will need at least a whole year to ROI that IF EVER, unless of course, bitcoin goes to 30-50k in no time, and still in that case holding BTC would be a better option.

Someone with free electity should go with an used S9, so a few offers for $25-$30 including PSU in the U.S , that's 30 days to ROI if you have free power, be on the safe side and count 2 months to ROI , it's 2 months Vs 8 months (the best case sncerio of all those 17series), also statstically speaking, a used S9 has higher chance to run for 2 months straight than a T17/S17 to run for 8 months.

But again everybody treats the mining business in a different way, my main method has been focusing on ROI in the first place, based on factors that include difficulty, price uncertainty, gears failure, and etc. the safest route you take when investing in mining IMO is how fast will you get your money back before "the shit hits the fan", I still remember those 1st/2nd S17 batches, those who paid $4000 nearly 14 months ago, they paid just about a WHOLE BTC thinking they would ROI in 6-8 months, and we all know how it ended up for most of them.

I am not trying to discourage anybody here, but newbies should be aware that mining isn't a game anymore, it's a business and most people lose money doing business, and those who have no clue about running a business shouldn't be mining anymore, unless you are doing it for fun.

You're entitled to your opinion Smiley I just couldn't imagine someone kitting out a new farm, investing 5 or 6 figures on infrastructure (OP said it will be a bulk purchase) to then install used and obsolete S9's that make pennies... Just doesn't seem worth the hassle to me? I'd also imagine his investors would expect him to be using new equipment... Perhaps suggesting Bitmain wasn't the wisest, but there are alternatives such as Whatsminer M20's which may be more reliable (although very power hungry).
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July 23, 2020, 08:14:25 PM
 #667

I just couldn't imagine someone kitting out a new farm, investing 5 or 6 figures on infrastructure (OP said it will be a bulk purchase) to then install used and obsolete S9's that make pennies.

A single S9 makes abit over $30 a month, and they ROI in less than 2 months (actually just about month), not sure if that is "pennies", anyway since he has free power and doesn't state any limit then it's only wise to utilize that, buying the same gears ast people who pay 4-6 cents and taking a huge risk of a far longer duration to ROI isn't something I would do, what seems to be confusing here is that S9 is 14TH while T17 is 61th, so it makes one thinks that S9 makes a tiny bit of profit but this is a bad way of looking at things, it's not just 14th vs 61th, it's simply

T17+ = 18$ per TH
S9     = 2.14$  per  TH

If he was to invest $16500 he could buy either:

1- 915TH  and needs 46  KW   (T17+)

or

2- 7,700TH and needs 687 KW  (S9)

That is 2200$  VS $18,550 monthly profit, obviosuly to build a 600+ KW farm will cost him more than bulidng 40+ KW farm in terms of infrastructure, but with a monthly profit of $16,300 more with S9s the initial cost of the build will be paid for very shorty.

Obviosuly things will be different if he has a LIMITED power supply of say 10kw then it's not worth buying 8 S9s and he would be better of following your advice, I personally own a small farm that is limited by a certain amount of power and mining with S9s there isn't worth it anymore, so I use much more effienct gears in that place, I also have a 300KVA transformer and a pretty large building somewhere else, i would be stupid if I bought anything but S9s there, but what do I know?  Grin

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July 23, 2020, 09:44:36 PM
Last edit: July 24, 2020, 02:16:18 AM by MoparMiningLLC
Merited by philipma1957 (4), mikeywith (1)
 #668

I say kudos to him for building a farm... My progress has halted at buying the land. Most of what I had saved up for the building and infrastructure went to supporting my kids/grandkids - the joy and pain of having 8 kids and 10 grandkids lol - during these months of COVID where they were out of work but unable to get unemployment or assistance due to our state/county sites failing - for my daughter to claim one week took almost 6 hours of straight up logging in, starting the process, getting kicked and starting over - repeated over and over.

Had there been no COVID, I most likely would have my 80'x40' building up and then be working at filling it with miners.

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July 24, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
 #669

Sad that big Corp got all the bailout monies as well. We didn’t apply for any in hope that would go the small biz and restaurants and such.

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July 26, 2020, 07:56:24 AM
Last edit: July 27, 2020, 01:57:25 AM by chrysophylax
 #670

Many Thanks for the Replies ...

Just in answer to a few of the points made.

- I asked here, even though it is not exactly on topic, due to the vast array of legends/high level members, as well as those that may not have the 'level' we do on BitCoinTalk, but have very high quality input. As can be seen and proven by the previous comments.

- I personally am not a novice or a newbie. A veteran in the Mining and Crypto industry for over 9 years now, though mainly in the area of GPU and GPU mining software (such as the CWIgm software introduced a while back but pulled from circulation).

- The 'free' Electricity comes in the form of the next project we are taking on, which is currently the purchase of the property (11Acres) but subsequently the build and installation of theSolarFarm which will eventually equate to 2MW total production. Some of which will feed the grid in the area it is being built, but most of which will be used to power the Miners. I personally have been working towards this for many years now, and this is the BEST time to do this, while there is some blood on the streets with COVID19 lockdowns. I know that sounds cruel, but it is fact.

- The foray into ASIC territory has already started with CWI (the Company) but only with X11 and Equihash, while dabbling a bit in sCrypt and some SHA256 ASIC's. The time has come for a more professional approach to SHA256 ASIC use while theSolarFarm is under construction and as such, I am looking at the preliminary stages of SHA256 Purchases. I know this will change as time goes on in the short term, let alone the long term, but it gives me a more precise idea of what is needed to fund the mining side of this farm.

- Finally, the hashrate that will be generated from the SHA256 side of this farm (there is another I are looking at down the road - a 3000Acre block) WILL be pointed at the CK pool, as Con himself has been a Legend in my eyes for many many years, and is one of the few people that STILL carries himself with respect and decency in my eyes (as have many of you who have commented). If only I could afford to have him on my team, and I am not just talking money wise.

So all in all, the posts made, and responded to are VERY important to me, and honestly is quite humbling to see that educated and well thought through advice like this (and how you all freely give it) is still a part of this awesome industry we are all in. It really makes me proud to see that this level of advocacy to the 'Betterment Of Crypto' (a statement I have always said) is still alive and well.

So Thank You all for your advice, and I hope I make the right decision in purchasing over the next 6-12 months of this project.

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
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July 26, 2020, 04:01:35 PM
 #671

Hello chrysophylax

Not sure if youve been in touch with "philipma1957" yet,
but he is the person you would want to get as much info from
as possible.  He is a great source for all your mining farm, solar questions
or possibly join your team  Grin Cheesy
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August 19, 2020, 05:39:56 PM
 #672

Nothing to see here  Grin
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August 21, 2020, 07:05:27 AM
 #673

Hello chrysophylax

Not sure if youve been in touch with "philipma1957" yet,
but he is the person you would want to get as much info from
as possible.  He is a great source for all your mining farm, solar questions
or possibly join your team  Grin Cheesy

He did ...

I have watched philipma1957 for some time now, since he started the farm in his basement/garage I think from memory. Good bloke.

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also? Especially EquiHash (ZEC for example)? If so, where would I be able to direct hashrate to?

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
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August 21, 2020, 07:06:28 AM
 #674

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
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August 21, 2020, 07:34:21 AM
Merited by suchmoon (7)
 #675

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Thanks Mate ...

We currently have a number of EquiHash miners (AntMiner Z9Mini and one Z9) and are looking at a large number of SHA256 Miners, probably S9Series machines as they seem to be the most value effective ones, though not very power efficient. Decision has not been made yet, and are still researching while we proceed with the purchase of the smaller property (approx 11Acres) for the initial foray into the Solar Farm project.

I am hoping we will get this organized within the next 6Months, even if it means starting small on 200KWH (approx 1Acre) as a basis of BTC mining. We will be using this pool for mining while we are in this process of growth/installation for CWI.

Appreciated.

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
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August 23, 2020, 06:10:44 AM
 #676

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Thanks Mate ...

We currently have a number of EquiHash miners (AntMiner Z9Mini and one Z9) and are looking at a large number of SHA256 Miners, probably S9Series machines as they seem to be the most value effective ones, though not very power efficient. Decision has not been made yet, and are still researching while we proceed with the purchase of the smaller property (approx 11Acres) for the initial foray into the Solar Farm project.

I am hoping we will get this organized within the next 6Months, even if it means starting small on 200KWH (approx 1Acre) as a basis of BTC mining. We will be using this pool for mining while we are in this process of growth/installation for CWI.

Appreciated.

#crysx


So what will be your start up hashrate?

Is it going to be solar? 
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August 23, 2020, 10:04:10 AM
 #677

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Thanks Mate ...

We currently have a number of EquiHash miners (AntMiner Z9Mini and one Z9) and are looking at a large number of SHA256 Miners, probably S9Series machines as they seem to be the most value effective ones, though not very power efficient. Decision has not been made yet, and are still researching while we proceed with the purchase of the smaller property (approx 11Acres) for the initial foray into the Solar Farm project.

I am hoping we will get this organized within the next 6Months, even if it means starting small on 200KWH (approx 1Acre) as a basis of BTC mining. We will be using this pool for mining while we are in this process of growth/installation for CWI.

Appreciated.

#crysx


So what will be your start up hashrate?

Is it going to be solar? 


Well ...

If all goes well, the initial is a Three Phase Electrical connection to the grid before the first 200KW get planned and built. 3Phase at 120Amp per Phase, so whatever that works out to be for how many machines each phase can run at 100Amp Max.

After that, components per 200KW will be built every xDays that it takes to build 200KW (usually per Acre).

This is ALL dependant on three things ...

1 - The successful purchase of the property (11Acres) as this has proved to be a mountain to climb so far.
2 - The Government/Regulatory bodies to 'allow' the Solar Farm to take place.
3 - The funds are available on an upfront basis as almost ALL parties involved have no intention on taking BTC (or any other Crypto) as payment except AUD.

So I would be very interested to see what will happen in the next 3Months with at least the first point. I have discussing and negotiating the funding part, which is at least 6Months away from what I have been told due to the regulatory bodies taking a crap load of time - for nothing mostly - and paying them for the privilege.

So depending on the machines and the power consumption each Phase can initially take, then we can determine how much initial HashRate we will have in CKPool, and what we will end up with when the farm is started as well as when it will be finished.

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
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August 25, 2020, 06:02:22 AM
 #678

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Thanks Mate ...

We currently have a number of EquiHash miners (AntMiner Z9Mini and one Z9) and are looking at a large number of SHA256 Miners, probably S9Series machines as they seem to be the most value effective ones, though not very power efficient. Decision has not been made yet, and are still researching while we proceed with the purchase of the smaller property (approx 11Acres) for the initial foray into the Solar Farm project.

I am hoping we will get this organized within the next 6Months, even if it means starting small on 200KWH (approx 1Acre) as a basis of BTC mining. We will be using this pool for mining while we are in this process of growth/installation for CWI.

Appreciated.

#crysx


So what will be your start up hashrate?

Is it going to be solar? 


Well ...

If all goes well, the initial is a Three Phase Electrical connection to the grid before the first 200KW get planned and built. 3Phase at 120Amp per Phase, so whatever that works out to be for how many machines each phase can run at 100Amp Max.

After that, components per 200KW will be built every xDays that it takes to build 200KW (usually per Acre).

This is ALL dependant on three things ...

1 - The successful purchase of the property (11Acres) as this has proved to be a mountain to climb so far.
2 - The Government/Regulatory bodies to 'allow' the Solar Farm to take place.
3 - The funds are available on an upfront basis as almost ALL parties involved have no intention on taking BTC (or any other Crypto) as payment except AUD.

So I would be very interested to see what will happen in the next 3Months with at least the first point. I have discussing and negotiating the funding part, which is at least 6Months away from what I have been told due to the regulatory bodies taking a crap load of time - for nothing mostly - and paying them for the privilege.

So depending on the machines and the power consumption each Phase can initially take, then we can determine how much initial HashRate we will have in CKPool, and what we will end up with when the farm is started as well as when it will be finished.

#crysx

Good Luck crysx

Hope this plans out good and all is good  Wink
chrysophylax
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August 26, 2020, 12:40:59 AM
 #679

Question (possibly for CK himself) - does this pool system cater to other Algos also?
Nope, bitcoin ONLY.

Thanks Mate ...

We currently have a number of EquiHash miners (AntMiner Z9Mini and one Z9) and are looking at a large number of SHA256 Miners, probably S9Series machines as they seem to be the most value effective ones, though not very power efficient. Decision has not been made yet, and are still researching while we proceed with the purchase of the smaller property (approx 11Acres) for the initial foray into the Solar Farm project.

I am hoping we will get this organized within the next 6Months, even if it means starting small on 200KWH (approx 1Acre) as a basis of BTC mining. We will be using this pool for mining while we are in this process of growth/installation for CWI.

Appreciated.

#crysx


So what will be your start up hashrate?

Is it going to be solar? 


Well ...

If all goes well, the initial is a Three Phase Electrical connection to the grid before the first 200KW get planned and built. 3Phase at 120Amp per Phase, so whatever that works out to be for how many machines each phase can run at 100Amp Max.

After that, components per 200KW will be built every xDays that it takes to build 200KW (usually per Acre).

This is ALL dependant on three things ...

1 - The successful purchase of the property (11Acres) as this has proved to be a mountain to climb so far.
2 - The Government/Regulatory bodies to 'allow' the Solar Farm to take place.
3 - The funds are available on an upfront basis as almost ALL parties involved have no intention on taking BTC (or any other Crypto) as payment except AUD.

So I would be very interested to see what will happen in the next 3Months with at least the first point. I have discussing and negotiating the funding part, which is at least 6Months away from what I have been told due to the regulatory bodies taking a crap load of time - for nothing mostly - and paying them for the privilege.

So depending on the machines and the power consumption each Phase can initially take, then we can determine how much initial HashRate we will have in CKPool, and what we will end up with when the farm is started as well as when it will be finished.

#crysx

Good Luck crysx

Hope this plans out good and all is good  Wink

I hope so too ...

Seems the owner of the land is keen, but not as proficient at getting things done as I am. 6 Months and not a contract of sale in sight.

Looking for other properties that have the same land - flat reasonably even ground that is not too close to residential and not in any flight path. I have found a 600Acre piece that the farmer is not interested in selling but is happy with the plans, so there is a possibility of a joint venture on his land of which 180Acres is available to build on. Let's see how this deal goes. Without ownership of the property such as this, I would look at alternate investment into this venture.

I think it is time to move this to it's own thread, but will continue to reference CKPool Smiley

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
ailikun
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August 26, 2020, 04:36:33 PM
 #680

its a bit boring in this thread, so lets do another solo round Grin.

There is no minimum amount of participants, or maximum either.
You can gamble any amount of btc, starting from 0.005 to 0.03.
If we find a block, we will split the block reward between all the solo gamblers percentage-wise.

We will start our solo journey in 7 days.
Write down you’re nickname and send me a pm, if you’re in!

P.s We will also donate 1% to ck from our solo pot, and 1% if we find a block.

1. ailikun   0.01 btc
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Komuto Herovato is definitely the chief engineer of bfl)
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