A Resource Based Economy

[kjj]

OK, at whose expense are you sauntering down the street, and how does this sauntering apply to " possibly enrich themselves at the expense of others"?
Still not the right question. At whose expense were resources just sitting on the shelves during the great depression, there being no purchasing power nor incentive to give those goods away?
OK, then who owns the raw materials, and who owns the bitcoins I control?
"Libertarians" being advocates of private property, isn't that a question for them to answer? Can one own a sequence of bytes?

Hmm.  No meaningful posts.  Only answers questions with more questions.  Has no point, no connection to the discussion other than quoting.  I think we've got a troll here.

[Rassah]

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it? Who will be in charge of resource allocation? And where will those resources originate from?

The internet is paid for by capitalist companies and its users. It's not a free resource, and not one provided by the government. It also costs very little, requiring a one time setup (lay cable, install router), instead of continuous hard labor to extract or produce resources.

[Rassah]

OK, at whose expense are you sauntering down the street, and how does this sauntering apply to " possibly enrich themselves at the expense of others"?
Still not the right question. At whose expense were resources just sitting on the shelves during the great depression, there being no purchasing power nor incentive to give those goods away?

This doesn't have anything to do with what I was asking.
You said that all capitalism is, is people trying to enrich themselves at the expense of others. I gave you an example of capitalism: I trade my $40 for your video card. Since capitalism is done at the expense of others, you must point out to me at who's expense this trade was done. Sauntering down the street doesn't have anything to do with any of this. If you claim that it does, explain how, don't ask questions.

OK, then who owns the raw materials, and who owns the bitcoins I control?
"Libertarians" being advocates of private property, isn't that a question for them to answer? Can one own a sequence of bytes?

Ok, I'll answer. I own those bitcoins. Those bitcoins are my property. The raw materials I work to create are my property. Yes, I can own a sequence of bits, or more specifically the secret that lets me control those sequence of bits. I own my thoughts and my ideas, the secret securing my private keys being one of them.

[BitCoinNutJob]

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it? Who will be in charge of resource allocation? And where will those resources originate from?

The internet is paid for by capitalist companies and its users. It's not a free resource, and not one provided by the government. It also costs very little, requiring a one time setup (lay cable, install router), instead of continuous hard labor to extract or produce resources.

Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it?

some rich people who rely on manipulating media etc dont like the freedom people have on the internet.  So with a basic resource allocation system people who rely on manipulation of food/housing/water will fight it.

Who will be in charge of resource allocation?

who is in charge of the information resource allocation on the internet? seems like a bit of everyone?

And where will those resources originate from?

What i propose would require some revolutionary design like bitcoin but on a even greater scale, maybe we need greater technology first.  With the internet people are incentivised to contribute information resources on many different reward levels (our conversation for example)

With a basic food/housing/water network system the incentives get tricky it seems, got any ideas?  maybe nothing of what i speak of if possible until technology can simplify basic living resources data dramatically.

[cbeast]

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

[BitCoinNutJob]

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?

[cbeast]

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?

We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

[BitCoinNutJob]

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?

We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

Ok fair point, not much to add my end i guess i just wish evolution would speed up. I like the idea of living in a RBE. Bitcoin seems like a step towards this so might aswell just support bitcoin atm.

[cbeast]

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.

Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?

We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

Ok fair point, not much to add my end i guess i just wish evolution would speed up. I like the idea of living in a RBE. Bitcoin seems like a step towards this so might aswell just support bitcoin atm.

You got it. A wise man once told me "If you can't go around, sometimes you have to go through." Bitcoin is an energy based economy. It's a stepping stone to where all resources will one day be represented on the blockchain through smart contracts. Its transparency will enable social forces to negotiate fair trading. Eventually, that fair trading will simply become automated.

[BitCoinNutJob]

^

ok very nice explanation seriously!, i wish TZM would just go full on bitcoin i've only heard it briefly mentioned before and it seems like it could be the key transitional technology.

[Naer]

I too am a part of TZM and followed bitcoin before then. It would be interesting to see the role bitcoin has on TZM

[BitCoinNutJob]

I too am a part of TZM and followed bitcoin before then. It would be interesting to see the role bitcoin has on TZM

Ive loosely followed TZM & PJ for a couple years now, they basically dont mention bitcoin much if at all its a shame.  Unless im mistaken the main goal of TZM is to increase the numbers of value shifted people.  Is increasing numbers the best main goal right now?

When ive mentioned bitcoin/crypto to some random TZMers ive had quite a bit of negative reaction along the lines of its just another greed money based system.... which maybe that has some truth in it but come on, we have to think at least a little bit practically to transition.  

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

[cbeast]

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.

Bitcoin is very efficient and requires very little energy. In fact, Satoshi once powered the entire Bitcoin network by himself. The free market is based on the math of economics. Bitcoin is based on math as well.  Math is universal.

[Miz4r]

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM. 

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.

How is Bitcoin inefficient and not adhering to the principles of the scientific method? The incompatibility lies in that Bitcoin is part of a monetary system and market economy, whereas TZM rejects the monetary system and the market economy entirely. Bitcoin and the blockchain could evolve beyond that though, but only if there's enough people who want that. It all still boils down to the people and what they want. Bitcoin in the end is just a handy tool we can use, but people decide how to use it.

[thejaytiesto]

Bitcoin will be finished by the time humanity is ready to stablish an RBU. An RBU implies no private property and no monetary system. We are faaaaar from there so BTC is a good transition tool for now.

[picolo]

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.

Bitcoin is very efficient and requires very little energy. In fact, Satoshi once powered the entire Bitcoin network by himself. The free market is based on the math of economics. Bitcoin is based on math as well.  Math is universal.

The free market and innovation from the private sector will be more efficient than any public creation. Bitcoin is supposed to be more efficient that the fiat system that is made to give power to the rulers and allow them to lie, cheat and go to war.

[Muuurrrrica!]

tl, dr

recource based economy is really just communism

[cbeast]

tl, dr

recource based economy is really just communism

Communism uses money like rubles, pesos, and yuan. RBE doesn't.

[Rassah]

Who will be in charge of resource allocation?

who is in charge of the information resource allocation on the internet? seems like a bit of everyone?

Information is not a limited resource (thus people don't consider intellectual property actual "property"). So there is no need to allocate it. An individual can come and take it, and it won't diminish the supply of the original. So it's not a good comparison to actual physical resources.

.
You said that all capitalism is, is people trying to enrich themselves at the expense of others. I gave you an example of capitalism: I trade my $40 for your video card. Since capitalism is done at the expense of others, you must point out to me at who's expense this trade was done.

Actually, i merely added "possibly at the expense of others" to your 'capitalism is just two people trading' ... So, responding to your '$40 for a video card'-hypothesis, how do you know those resources could not be better spent elsewhere, benefitting mankind?

You did actually say that capitalism is something done at the expense of others, since your point is that capitalism is exploitative. And regarding your question, that's not an expense, that's a hypothetical. Plus we know those resources could not be better spent elsewhere, because if they could be, I would be offered more than $40 for it by someone else, or you would have spent that $40 on something you needed more than the card. The very fact that I traded the card for $40, and you traded that $40 for the card, means that we as individuals chose this as the best use of our resources in this situation.

Ok, I'll answer. I own those bitcoins. Those bitcoins are my property. The raw materials I work to create are my property. Yes, I can own a sequence of bits, or more specifically the secret that lets me control those sequence of bits. I own my thoughts and my ideas, the secret securing my private keys being one of them.

Thanks, now you only have to define 'own' and 'private property' for me to properly respond to your claims.

Own as in I have control over it, can claim objective ethical right to it (I used my own body and mind to create or obtain them without forcing them out of anyone else), and have the support and agreement of society that these coins belong to me, since those I am involved with agree that I obtained them fairly.

Private property as in things that I can rightfully claim to belong to me. That I own.

[Rassah]

The incompatibility lies in that Bitcoin is part of a monetary system and market economy, whereas TZM rejects the monetary system and the market economy entirely.

It's a bit ironic that although TZM rejects the monetary system and the market economy entirely, almost none of its followers do.

tl, dr

recource based economy is really just communism

Communism uses money like rubles, pesos, and yuan. RBE doesn't.

Actually no, the ruble was not a money, per se. Money is basically like any other commodity, traded on the exchange, and having its value established by the same supply vs demand aspects like everything else. Cost of labor (wages) and price of goods all change constantly in relation to money, and depend of the supply of each compared to the demand of each (how much money is in circulation vs how much that money is sought by others, compared to how many apples are in season right now vs how many people want apples, determines how much money will be exchanged for apples, aka their price).

In contrast, rubles were essentially coupons or points that could be exchanged for other things based on a fixed exchange rate. Job wages were not earned based on demand, as they would be with money, but rewarded in ruble "points" based on their perceived importance, and the number of ruble "points" spent on an apple would be set (by central planners) based on their need for subsistence, and somewhat on the complexity of its production. In essense, a ruble was no different than a card you could get for 8 free coffees, where each time you visit, one of the 8 coffee squares gets punched out with a hole punch.

So, yeah, RBE is like communism, where all resources are planned out, and allocated using the point system.