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eiskalt
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March 03, 2013, 10:22:04 PM |
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@manfred: thank you very much, maybe it will help, although chances are very small.
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Even in the event that an attacker gains more than 50% of the network's
computational power, only transactions sent by the attacker could be
reversed or double-spent. The network would not be destroyed.
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Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
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mralbi
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March 03, 2013, 11:39:51 PM |
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well, the problem I discussed with my lawyer is: he does actually not owe you BITCOINS anymore, since they are GONE. In this case he is responsible to reimburse you the inflicted damage resulting from the loss in FIAT currency. Speculation profits or whatever you could construct are not counted....Since the loss was announced at 22.12 or so, he is responsible to reimburse you something like 47,62 times 10 euros = 476,20 Euros.
In a follow up step, provided you can actually provide enough evidence and bla you will pay in advance 3000 euros for a lawyer to get a certificate proving that he owes you that amount. This does not mean that he actually CAN pay you. In case he cannot (which is VERY likely if you have around 300.000 euros debts) He will go to bankruptcy. And after that "bankrupcy" will be announced and all former bitcoin holders would get around 6%. So, in your case: maybe 30 Euros, while you spent 3000 for the lawyer. (And up to here 2 years passed)
You are completely naive to trust into our legal system and stupid buerocrats or lawyers. In my case it would actually make more sense, as i have 618 frozen coins, but you can sue around as much as you want, it simply does not make sense when there is nothing to take....
The address should be easy to find, just check the domain owner
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eiskalt
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March 04, 2013, 12:33:18 AM |
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You are completely naive to trust into our legal system and stupid buerocrats or lawyers.
well, the problem I discussed with my lawyer
I am a full time EU buerocrat myself
You see, I am not naive - I simply do not trust you and your lawyer. In a follow up step, provided you can actually provide enough evidence and bla you will pay in advance 3000 euros for a lawyer to get a certificate proving that he owes you that amount.
BS, there are different ways and for sure even if I would take a lawyer in Poland, it will not be that costly. To specify my first question: Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that I held 47,6258 bitcoins at bitmarket.eu right before they got stolen? -and I would like to get this question answered by m4v3r per email. To my third question: I checked the whois-protocol at eurid.eu, but they seem not to disclose the address of the registrant (there is only an email-address). One address is disclosed, but that seems to be the address of the hosting service. So, I am still waiting |
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tacoexperience
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March 04, 2013, 06:07:25 AM |
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I was going to post something about the above lawyer fees comments.... I better not. I/we understand you're upset. Join the boat my friend. We're all here ho....... you know what? Perhaps I shouldn't post this either. Good luck, but please read back around 20 to 30 pages, in date order.. If you couldn't find that address from the 620 stolen coins I can pretty much assume that you hardly read anything at all. At most you skimmed through it, like your lawyer will do when he charges you EUR200-300 p/hour to "read" 2 pages of your problem, and that are other thousands(?) of people with the same one.   |
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M4v3R
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March 04, 2013, 07:12:19 AM |
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-Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that he owes me 47,6258 bitcoins? (My username at bitmarket.eu is fluppisippi.)
Please note though that since Bitmarket is not a bank, we don't have any insurances against theft or other unpredicted losses of Bitcoin. While legally I don't think I own you any Bitcoins (as per mralbi said), I feel morally obliged to return them to all users that had them stolen, that's why you will receive them back after we gather necessary funds. They will get the same treatement as the "on hold" ones from the previous loss, possibly with one exception - they will be probably reimbursed first. -To which bitcoinaddress(es) were the latest 620 stolen bitcoins sent? (Maybe bitmarket-admin already told us, but I could not find it)
As someone already said before, the address and all necessary information was already posted before. The address that was used for the theft is: http://blockchain.info/pl/address/1Lbcfpaw3uHs3iarBqZ12FYeD5vFwNvY49Also, I don't really feel posting my postal address to some random guy on the internet, even if I owe virtual currency for him. Bitmarket investors will know my personal information and that's sufficient. |
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mralbi
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March 04, 2013, 08:50:14 AM |
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and one additional comment:
If you go to the police, they will take two hours of your precious time and write a nice protocol that is needed for some crime statistics only. After 2 months you get a reply that investigations are stopped, as your tiny sum is not worth the effort to start further investigations and they tell you to take a lawyer, as there is no public interest in the case. (I did this last year when someone cheated me for 28 Bitcoins, where i even knew the bank information and name/address of the guy)
And for the bitmarket.eu thing: When I looked for lawyers in Poland during the time at the beginning when I first was VERY angry about my frozen coins, i also was extremly disapointed.
They usually have "reasonable" fees for polish citizens, but quite high fees for foreigners. It is tricky to find english speaking lawyers, I could at least manage to find few german-speaking lawyers as they speak german better than english in many cases. But they ALL take cash in advance and most of them do not even answer to your inquiries anymore, as soon as you start explaining something about bitcoin and blockchain transactions or whatever. They will refuse to take YOUR case anyway when tiny sums like 50 bitcoins are concerned, they will just laugh and tell you to go back and play with your facebook friends.
But do not trust me or "my lawyer", just make your own experience, waste some more money on lawyers if you can afford and keep beleiving I am now best friends with Maciej and I am investing into this new bitmarket project thing because i want do HIM (Maciej) a favor ;-))
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becoin
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March 04, 2013, 09:39:36 AM |
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While legally I don't think I own you any Bitcoins (as per mralbi said) !?... I didn't understand what mralbi said. Perhaps, he doesn't understand it either? Would you care to elaborate why you don't legally own any bitcoins to your customers? It doesn't really matter that you are not a bank. Thieves don't need to be a bank to commit a crime? |
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mralbi
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March 04, 2013, 10:05:47 AM |
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Well, thats what i thought in the beginning, too. He owes you bitcoins and you can sue him to to get your bitcoins back. But thats simply a wrong assumtion.
This is not the case, as the bitcoins got lost and are not there anymore. Therefore, from legal point of view he does not owe you these bitcoins anymore, but he has to reimburse the inflicted damage in EURO (or whatever fiat currency applies) that was caused by the loss. And this makes a HUGE difference.
It is the same as if you buy a car and the car burns down because the seller "accidentially" burned it down or lost it because the car was stolen or whatever AFTER your purchase. in this case you cannot demand the car anymore, but the seller has to reimburse the amount in Euro (not in cars).
I only have a german source for this case, namely § 326 I BGB, but in polish law it should be the same.
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becoin
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March 04, 2013, 10:48:09 AM |
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It is the same as if you buy a car and the car burns down because the seller "accidentially" burned it down or lost it because the car was stolen or whatever AFTER your purchase. in this case you cannot demand the car anymore, but the seller has to reimburse the amount in Euro (not in cars). Of course. All bitmarket customers will be more than happy if they are reimbursed in euro, dollars, or whatever at the bitcoin exchange rate! In addition current owner can also be sued over missed opportunity! |
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mralbi
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March 04, 2013, 11:11:08 AM |
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you can also sue him for having two ears and a nose, but the question is if you would get through with it. At least what I have seen from (german) cases from the past, e.g. cases where precious metals were involved or stocks that gained massively in value etc. the courts have always denied these kind of cases for the "loss of opportunity" part.
But this is anyway just a side problem. The main issue is in my opinion: No matter how right you are and whatever the court will approve, the question is: Would you actually GET the money, or would you simply get nothing because there is nothing there? Your lawyer will not care, he will always get your money from YOU and he will get it first before he will start doing anything... ;-)
BTW, you could also try without lawyer and see how far you get without polish language skills
But please, do not believe me, just do your own research, i am just trying to help
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becoin
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March 04, 2013, 12:38:07 PM |
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the question is: Would you actually GET the money, or would you simply get nothing because there is nothing there? Your question is of two parts that are excluding each other! How will you GET the money if there is actually nothing there? The question is: Would you GET some money as a result of the lawsuit against current owner or you'll get nothing but just another promise in the queue of broken promises? The cost of the lawyer will be paid from ALL bitmarket customers proportionally to their lost bitcoins, so it is not such a big deal. I'm pretty confident that if you've included such a question in the questionnaire the answer of the majority would have been "yes". I don't really understand why are you acting as M4v3R's lawyer? |
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mralbi
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March 04, 2013, 01:16:25 PM |
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I dont claim to be anyone's lawyer, i just want to share my personal view on things. I also shared the legal assessment I received from "my" (german) lawyer about the interpretation of "lost bitcoins". But your assumtion that I want to help M4v3r out is just wrong. In my opinion the only way to get "THE" money back is by "earning" it back by setting up a new site that provides unique features and would have the trust of many users.
From the questionnaire results, most people actually chose to put their energy in creating a new platform instead of trying to hunt behind the "old" money which is lost anyway, no matter how many court cases you might win.
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eiskalt
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March 04, 2013, 01:57:49 PM |
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In my opinion the only way to get "THE" money back is by "earning" it back
and that is exactly how gamblers feel and ponzi-schemers/conartists operate. There would be a lot more to comment on, but I also have limited resources and I just want to clarify, that I specified my question - I asked, if bitmarket-admin can confirm, that I held 47,6258 bitcoins at the exchange, right before the theft. I am still waiting for an answer there. @m4v3r: You have got my bankaccount-data, you have got my ebayaccount-data and not only mine, but from hundreds of users - you could easily get everybodies address with that, but you do not want to disclose your relevant postal address, although for legal reasons you should? So anybody still interested in "investing"? For those who honestly want to travel to Helsinki: you should assess the risks carefully, take a lawyer of your own choice, take him with you and if you do not have the resources to pay for a lawyer, leave this hole shady buisness-plan. If not, take at least two or three of your best buddies with you, so you can not be forced to sign anything in Helsinki. I do not want to stop anyone to feel ashamed for a third time though - it is your choice. |
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BCB
CTG
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BCJ
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March 04, 2013, 02:52:10 PM |
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Review the bitfloor.com hack before you agree to a repayment plan. Bitfloor lost 30,000 BTC in September 2012 and to date has returned 1.7% of the stolen bitcoin. Trading volume remains very low and there has been no report of additional investors payments.
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mralbi
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March 04, 2013, 02:57:08 PM |
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If i was you, I would not demand (or rely on) any confirmation from the admin on how many coins he owes you. What do you do when he simply does not answer or tells you that he owes you just 1 BTC or whatever other (wrong) amont?
You should collect "prove" by your bank transactions when purchasing these "frozen" coins from bitmarket.eu and maybe also use the receiving person you sent the money as witness. (This was at least the info i received as recommendation). You can of course also try to take whatever blockchain transactions as "prove", but you should NOT rely on the info you might receive from the admin (if you get any). At least, if i was him I would not give out any information to someone who publicly announces that he wants to sue me ;-)
And for the "meeting", there is no contract that would be signed. We want to meet to discuss the way out of the mess, based on the information we have from the questionnaire(s). It is mainly to discuss the ideas we have right now, discuss how these could be put into place plus get clarification on roles and responsibilities. No need to bring buddies or lawyers ;-))) We want to discuss primarily how the new site would look like and which functions could be implemented. How debts could be paid is also on the agenda, but for investors not the main issue.
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xumi
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March 06, 2013, 12:59:36 AM |
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If I understand correctly, this bitcoinica issue occured at december 2012.
I naively deposited 2.43 BTCs on bitmarket and sold them without problem (14/02/2013). Then I deposited 5 more BTCs and put them on sale (on 15/02/2013). Then The site got offline 16/02/2013 and has been offline since then.
This bitcoins were transfered after the issue with bitcoinica, so the admin should have complete access to them.
Is there any way to get in contact with him? The site is offline without contact info. Would be enough to send a PM to his user in this forum or he just got completely off this issue am I simply screwed?
(sorry for the bad english btw).
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disclaimer201
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March 06, 2013, 01:09:48 AM |
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The bitcoinica "issue" happened in June 2012.
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xumi
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March 06, 2013, 06:24:51 AM |
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Had been a little astray from this thread lately https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441.msg1413156#msg1413156"December 21, 2012, 08:53:16 AM" Maybe it occured before, but the consequences of it on bitmarket.eu started on december. Anyway, since my coins were sent on february 2013, they shouldnt have been afected by this (bitcoinica). But just found out that I was f*cked up in the last hack  Looking at the address where they were sent, seems like they were totally lost, being tranfered through a lot of wallets in massive amounts (200, 500, 1000, even 2000 btcs at once!). |
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unixdude
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March 06, 2013, 07:55:03 AM
Last edit: March 06, 2013, 08:33:21 AM by unixdude |
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-Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that he owes me 47,6258 bitcoins? (My username at bitmarket.eu is fluppisippi.)
Please note though that since Bitmarket is not a bank, we don't have any insurances against theft or other unpredicted losses of Bitcoin. While legally I don't think I own you any Bitcoins (as per mralbi said), I feel morally obliged to return them to all users that had them stolen, that's why you will receive them back after we gather necessary funds. They will get the same treatement as the "on hold" ones from the previous loss, possibly with one exception - they will be probably reimbursed first. -To which bitcoinaddress(es) were the latest 620 stolen bitcoins sent? (Maybe bitmarket-admin already told us, but I could not find it)
As someone already said before, the address and all necessary information was already posted before. The address that was used for the theft is: http://blockchain.info/pl/address/1Lbcfpaw3uHs3iarBqZ12FYeD5vFwNvY49Also, I don't really feel posting my postal address to some random guy on the internet, even if I owe virtual currency for him. Bitmarket investors will know my personal information and that's sufficient. This might be relevant for people in the UK and other EU countries thinking about taking the previous owner to court you may not get all your coins back or their monetary value but if you just want to see him suffer the consequences of his actions it might be worth it: http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/dispute_resolution/litigation/basics/500437.htmlI've reported him for fraud and theft this morning and I am awaiting a call from the police in the coming days to get more information from me. |
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