BitMarket.Eu has closed down

[vv01f]

@Mahkul

Thank you very much for these announcements - I'd love to see some trustworthy instance in your market where classic money and btc are held until both sides have transferred their amount. I hope you are successful in offering an at least as good service as mtgox regarding charging the account. They really lack SEPA for many Europeans (hope they can hold 20th aug11).
The Paypal-Option not many will miss I suppose. But probably the ones that do miss such service can boost moneybookers to a position where withdrawing to a bank account will not cost anymore - the main reason I do not use that one.

Besides, right now I have a problem with a missing confirmation of an bank transfer I did. How can I proof that I did send the money to the Person that keeps silent right now?

[1714770959]

1714770959

[vv01f]

I just think moneybookers has a problem in acceptance (number of users).
One reason for that I estimate in the fact, that there is paypal where a user can charge and withdraw his account without any fee.
And MB just can charge without a fee.
The matter of acceptance is a matter of ease - a matter of ease is if I have (as a customer) to think about fees. If there is none, I do not have to think about that one. That is also the main reason for charging fees on the receiver (usually businesses) and not the payer (usually the customer). It is some kind of marketing I assume.

[lorenzfx]

I like the decision, I never accepted paypal as a payment method, but still twice someone wanted to pay my btc via paypal. Glad to see it gone

[kakobrekla]

I'm glad we still have MoneyBookers

I dont.

I got charged back on moneybookers the following day that I sold BTC on Bitmarket.eu.
I wrote to MB telling the full and honest story  (yes I told them about bitcoin).
After that they have suspended my withdraw and requested further identification (passport), tho my address was already confirmed.
After I provided them with ID, they decided to give me an option to withdraw my left money on MB and after that, they closed my account.


Dear Mr. ---,

 Following a detailed security check, we have decided to terminate your account with Moneybookers. Any balance is immediately available for you to withdraw at your convenience.

 Please visit our Terms and Conditions - Section 10.2 for further information regarding the reversed payments.

 This action is taken in accordance with section 17 of our Terms and Conditions.

 Kind regards,

 Moneybookers Security



After asking twice for additional explanation about section 17 (which part of it im breaking), they responded this...( response was the same both thimes )

Dear Mr. ---,

 Thank you for your email.
 We are sorry to inform you that we cannot offer you our services. Please note that the decision for closing your Moneybookers account is final and indisputable. Any attempt to open new accounts will not be tolerated.

 Best regards,

second one:


Dear Mr. ---,

 Thank you for contacting us.

 We regret to inform you that since your account was suspended based on our Terms and Conditions section 17 we are unable to further assist you.

 Kind regards,

 Moneybookers Security


And btw, there is a charge back button in help... so you can automatically cancel transactions, no need to call MB or anything.

Pawel, the bitmarket.eu admin is aware of my case tho its obvious I will not get any money (btc or eur) back.

Edit: adding this part of the TOS:

17. Termination and suspension
17.1. We may terminate your Moneybookers Account or any payment service associated with it by giving you two months prior notice. You may terminate your Account with us at any time. Different termination rights may apply under a Merchant Agreement if you hold a Merchant Account.
17.2. Together with a termination notice or at any time thereafter we may give you reasonable instructions on how to withdraw remaining funds.
17.3. If your Account is subject to a reserve, termination of your Account will not affect our right to hold the reserve and to make deductions therefrom for the time agreed.
17.4. We may at any time suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account without notice in case:
17.4.1. you breach any condition of these Terms of Use or any other condition applicable to specific services covered by separate terms and conditions;
17.4.2. you violate or we have reason to believe that you are in violation of any law or regulation that is applicable to your use of Moneybookers services; or
17.4.3. If we have reason to believe that you are in any way involved in any fraudulent activity, money laundering, terrorism financing or other criminal activity.
17.5. We may suspend your Account at any time if:
17.5.1. we reasonably believe that your Account has been compromised or for other security reasons; or
17.5.2. we reasonably suspect your Account to have been used or is being used without your authorisation or fraudulently; and we shall notify you either prior to the suspension or, if prior notification is not possible under the circumstances, promptly after the suspension unless we are prohibited by law to notify you.

[LokeRundt]

Question1: how can I trust the vendor that he will accept the transaction once I send the money?

As BioMike said, if you can prove that you've sent the money, we can act on this. Another thing is that we're planning some other features that will make this easier and safer, but these things take time, as we not only need to code them, but also make sure that it complies with law in Poland.

Would it be possible to add all SEPA currencies, or is that a complicated process?
I would like to offer some coins in CHF and NOK would be good-

It isn't complicated, but we would need to see that there is actual demand for trades in these currencies. Then we could consider adding them.

Yes, I have some NOK that I'm looking to convert into BTC, and the seller on the otc that's offering BTC for NOK has a gpg key that won't work to encrypt messages.

[miernik]

Can someone tell me what does it mean if there are offers on BitMarket.eu which do not have any Payment types? How will such users pay?
For example now in USD Market on Bid (buy) offers:

   17.08.2011, 4:19:17   10 BTC   USD   13 USD   130.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:35   3 BTC     USD   13 USD   39.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:49   2.92 BTC   USD   13 USD   37.96 USD

They don't have any logos of  Local wire transfer, neither, Foreign wire transfer, SEPA wire transfer nor Dwolla, not even Moneybookers, nothing!

If I want to sell some BTC for 13 USD/BTC to these users, how will they pay me?

Will such orders match with anything?

There are now sell orders much below 13 USD, and these orders don't match with them.

Maybe its an error to allow such orders and they'll never be executed?

[ancow]

Can someone tell me what does it mean if there are offers on BitMarket.eu which do not have any Payment types? How will such users pay?
For example now in USD Market on Bid (buy) offers:

   17.08.2011, 4:19:17   10 BTC   USD   13 USD   130.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:35   3 BTC     USD   13 USD   39.00 USD
   17.08.2011, 4:19:49   2.92 BTC   USD   13 USD   37.96 USD

They don't have any logos of  Local wire transfer, neither, Foreign wire transfer, SEPA wire transfer nor Dwolla, not even Moneybookers, nothing!

If I want to sell some BTC for 13 USD/BTC to these users, how will they pay me?

Will such orders match with anything?

There are now sell orders much below 13 USD, and these orders don't match with them.

Maybe its an error to allow such orders and they'll never be executed?

I'm pretty sure those were Paypal-only offers, and they will probably go away/be replaced eventually (unless the admins delete them manually, which would speed things up ).

[miernik]

I'm pretty sure those were Paypal-only offers, and they will probably go away/be replaced eventually (unless the admins delete them manually, which would speed things up ).

No, because there are other offers which have the Paypal logo, so the Paypal option didn't get removed from the offers which had them before the change.

See https://bitmarket.eu/market/USD

[ancow]

Right you are. However, since this coincides with the removal of PP as an option, this bug will likely have something to do with it. I'm a tad curious how this could have happened... (Database corruption by the payment method removal script? New offers not being assigned one because of a bug introduced by the change?)

[PowerChaos]

17.4.3. If we have reason to believe that you are in any way involved in any fraudulent activity, money laundering, terrorism financing or other criminal activity.

money laundering

this is your reason of acocunt suspension on mb

they see bitcoin as a kinda fraude thing , there is no proof that it is sended and it get created on a not fair way (depeds how you explained it to them)
basicly bitcoin can be seein as money laundering because you can create your own bitcoin and sell it for money
there is no proof that you sold a real thing , there is no proof that you sold anyhting , so you just get money from some1 with out a reason

but before going to mutch offtopic
here is a little secret , it is way easyer to chargeback with moneybookers then with paypal ( reason why egypt get accepted by mb and not by pp ?? )

the fee's are higher to on mb then on pp
but before i go to mutch offtopic
i still love the service that bitmarket is offering
but it would be sadly for me if they should remove paypal , its the users there right to denie payments with pp but i still feel that they need to keep pp alive as there are almost no other markets that accept pp , and i can not sell btc on a other way then with pp (got my reasons and a bit of lazyness has to do with it to)

Greets From PowerChaos

[BTCnewbie]

We are very sorry to announce that as of this moment Paypal is no longer available as a payment method on BitMarket. The reason being, as some of you already know, that over the last couple of weeks there have been a significant increase in the Paypal scams on our exchange.

We realize that this decision will probably make some of you even quit using our service, but we would rather have fewer people around that can feel safe than a lot of people that will constantly be worrying about being scammed.

No matter what we do, Paypal will never be a safe option for selling Bitcoins. The small percentage of the scammers is really using stolen Paypal accounts. But the nicest people in the world and with 100% positive E-Bay feedback proved to be scammers as well and even more often! And there is nothing we can do to stop them, because they use their own Paypal account and tell Paypal the transactions were not authorized by them. What can you do then - how can we prove that they are not right? And of course Paypal doesn't give a damn about sellers, otherwise they would have introduced some OTP mechanism and there would be no stolen passwords then and no excuses for dumb users who cannot guard their passwords properly or simply are thieves. Why don't they do it even though they are one of the biggest money processing companies in the world? I don't know, but that's pathetic and laughable.

Some of our users even started (sic IMHO) suspecting that we ourselves have something to do with these chargebacks; believe me that this is not very encouraging to keep on running this service altogether. So, we are just fed up with Paypal and that's over. Due to all the recent scams we haven't even had time to take a look at any other emails other than those related to Paypal reversals. One thing I can promise everyone is that from now on processing emails will be much faster.

Within two months BitMarket is going to be transformed into an exchange operating in a similar exchange as Mt. Gox, where users are able to transfer their money directly to us and then trade safely. There will also be a much more advanced login procedure in place (2-step authentication). BitMarket will also become an Irish limited company accepting: EUR, GBP, PLN, USD and CHF. There will also be small fees for using it; however, for our most loyal users that have been supporting us constantly trading will remain free of charge.

EDIT: When I get around to it I will post all email addresses that were used to scam people.

Good decision,

time for someone to create bitpal and bitbay and cut out these fuckers altogether

[miernik]

but it would be sadly for me if they should remove paypal , its the users there right to denie payments with pp but i still feel that they need to keep pp alive as there are almost no other markets that accept pp , and i can not sell btc on a other way then with pp (got my reasons and a bit of lazyness has to do with it to)

I don't get it why would anyone need to sell BTC with Paypal. If you have Paypal then for sure you also have a bank account, yes? So if you have a bank account, you can sell BTC receiving money in your bank account, and from the bank account you can easily deposit it to Paypal if you need it to end up in there.

The result is the same, but all sides of the transaction are safe.

[PowerChaos]

ok time for some exlanation then on your post

0) when does paypal ask for a bank account ?? after you sended 1200€ ... long way to go if you barely use it o.O (then it just ask visa , it never ask your bank account)
1) from paypal to bank -> 3 - 7 days
2) from bank to bank in usa ( international ) -> 7 - 14 days
3) from bank back to paypal -> 3 - 5 days

extra , pay with visa ?? no way possible if you do it with a bank transfer - > never

conformation ?? -> only when you as end user confirm it , we get a conformation that it is sended but not when it is recrived -> easy to scam (i never got the money)
getting refunded ?? -> no way possible -> you need to sue to get it back -> a lot extra money lost to possible win the case  -> a lot of proof is needed -> not a good option

that was the short explanation as the full explanation will take ages to read

to show my point (and sorry , now i released a other way to get scammed ) try it yourself to get something refunded , even if it is just 1€ ... good luck with that part

other examples needed ?? -> read the news , there are enouf examples of fraude and some dark practice to hide money and to gain money with out the user that can get it back (welcome to real life )

the big point i mean is that no transfers are safe , exept just giving it cash and see the guy sitting next to you transfering the bitcoins to your account ... all other payments can be scammed if you know how (some are easyer then others )

want to have the best secure way ?? just setup a contract .. and then you got something to sue for that you wil always win
but who will setup a contract if it goes about bitcoin ?
now you hopely got my point and hopely you can stop whining about stuff you think you know you are talking about and saying that it is safer because you just think it is

no offence to bitmarket.eu and sorry that i post this as reply in here
but i just want to show that it would be sadly to remove that option because of the high risk when there are other high risks to (or do you provide support to if the end user refuse to confirm my payment i made to his bank ? or that i can not do internal transfers because high security risk that the bank doesnt allow it to complete the transfer like in holland ??  )

never wondered why egypt cant use bank transfer ? but it can use moneybookers or western union ( thats a other story) ?? and that paypal is not allowing them ?
same as a lot of other country's that are not allowed to do bank transfers ??

anyway
hopely you understand where i am talking about and if you realy want to understand everything then i would suggest to do a bit of investigation about it

if paypal need to go from this bitcoinmarket.eu then it is sadly for me , but if it can stay on it then i will be happy to use/support it
i am even willing to help bitmarket.eu to fight against the chargeback/fraude  if i can make a deal with them ( so everything get past me for example ? like i do wiht my escrow service but then with special deals ? )

Thank you for reading
Greetings From PowerChaos

[miernik]

ok time for some exlanation then on your post

0) when does paypal ask for a bank account ?? after you sended 1200€ ... long way to go if you barely use it o.O (then it just ask visa , it never ask your bank account)
1) from paypal to bank -> 3 - 7 days
2) from bank to bank in usa ( international ) -> 7 - 14 days
3) from bank back to paypal -> 3 - 5 days

Yes, its slower, but not as much as you exaggerated it.

0) Well, maybe its possible to use Paypal without having a bank account, but in practice almost everyone who uses Paypal to receive money has a bank account, otherwise he can't get the Paypal money out (otherwise then buying something with Paypal), but most things can't be bought with Paypal so sooner or later he'll need a bank account anyway, for example if he needs to buy some food in the local grocery shop with that money. Its a theoretically possible, but anyway inconvenient and very unlikely that someone uses Paypal not having a bank account.

2) Even international bank transfers take max 2 days, often 1 day. At least in Europe. They can even take 1 second if both people have accounts in the same bank.

3) No need to deposit money to Paypal waiting 3-5 days as you can just pay with Paypal using a debit card to your bank account, which works instantly.

The rest of your post about not being able to reverse the payment in case the other side doesn't send the Bitcoins is also completely a non-issue, and completely backwards. Not being able to reverse the payment is the only way to make the trade safe, and especially if you are SELLING Bitcoins, you have nothing to worry about. You got your bank transfer, the buyer can not reverse it (unkike a Paypal payment), so you can safely send him Bitcoins.

The Bitcoins are deposited in Bitmarket.eu wallet so if the person doesn't confirm he got the bank transfer he'll not gain anything as he'll not get his Bitcoins back from Bitmarket.eu - they will stay frozen there, so there is no incentive to scam. Anyway if you are afraid of that, just don't use Bitmarket.eu, use plenty of other exchanges where money is deposited at the exchange, like MtGox.com Bitcoin7.com Tradehill.com

[Valalvax]

I've never had a bank transfer that didn't take at least 3 days

So far I haven't had any problems at all with Paypal chargebacks, though I've only done two or three orders, my problem is the length of time it takes to get back to Dwolla, if anyone ever charge backs me, I'll give Paypal proof that I gave them what they paid for, and if they refuse that, I'll take them to small claims court

[phase]

I'm glad we still have MoneyBookers

+1!

I didn't use Paypal for BitMarket trading anyway, nor bank transfers, just MB. It's the only available option that can complete a trade within a couple of minutes (once the buyer responds). Plus it's P2P trading, this nicely obfuscates the incoming money from an MB point of view. I'm hoping this decision will move some traffic from PayPal to Moneybookers. I also hope the option will remain in place to trade directly over Moneybookers with other peers in the future. If you have an MB account with just transfers coming in from BitMarket (supposedly in the future), I don't think it would take them long to shut down your account.

[vv01f]

OK, the prob mit PP and MB is, that there aint sold any goods that can be followed if shipped or not?

I've never had a bank transfer that didn't take at least 3 days

SEPA is 3 days (and free) now, dunno about SWIFT etc, these are to expensive for myself and very low BTC-amounts (1-10).
But in local (and free) bank transfer it takes just 1 day within the same bankgroup, and the law says in next years the time is to be limited again..

The main point of MB and PP is the ease of use.. just type in an email-address and go on paying.. thats fine. Bank-transfers are much more complex compared to that.. when does Bitpal start?! hope they do..


What about sending a wallet.dat - that one can be encrypted, stored and sent via multiple ways, not only a protocol..
would that be a way to go? I mean, I also can sell websites and word document, whatsoever.. so its comparable for me.

I think of just selling a new wallet.dat which helds the amount of sold BTC and transfer it encryptet.. after receiving money, they get the key. What do you think?

[ancow]

I think of just selling a new wallet.dat which helds the amount of sold BTC and transfer it encryptet.. after receiving money, they get the key. What do you think?

This is kinda OT here, so you may want to start a new thread. Anyhow, as a potential buyer, I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this as you may not send me the (correct) key, or keep a local copy of the wallet and empty it as soon as the money arrives. It'd put me in a pretty vulnerable position.

[vv01f]

I just wanted to make up how the friends at MB could be satisfied..

of course the security for the customer isnt increased, neither it is with some software or other things to sell.

and thats why the post aint OT

[ancow]

I just wanted to make up how the friends at MB could be satisfied..

of course the security for the customer isnt increased, neither it is with some software or other things to sell.

and thats why the post aint OT

I see. In that case, it doesn't really address their money laundering argument and is just ineffective...