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Author Topic: [ANN] IPO of MaidSafe:  Entering the Future of the Decentralized Internet  (Read 530442 times)
FrictionlessCoin
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April 23, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
 #201

I really don't care for MSC since it obviously is a flawed concept and has no real intrinsic value.

Can you summarize the reasons you think that? not quarreling here, just genuinely interested. i can't see any "obvious" reason.


MSC is based on an idea that you can stuff arbitrary information into a bitcoin transaction.   However, it does not leverage Bitcoin's main capability, that is, the ability to prevent double spending.   You can use any protocol (http, smtp) to enable MSC.  The use of Bitcoin's network is more hype than substance.


      
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April 23, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
 #202

I really don't care for MSC since it obviously is a flawed concept and has no real intrinsic value.

It just facilitated the biggest/fastest crowdsale in history exactly as it was designed to do, and protocol-wise it performed perfectly.  Your definiton of “flawed” and mine are vastly different.

Craig

Any exchange could have enabled the same crowdsale thing.   In fact,  the BTC purchases as you can see, does not require MSC to raise funds.   Just ask folks to send money to and address,  compile all transactions in a spreadsheet and then dole out the funds.

My definition of 'flawed' is from the technical perspective and not the marketing perspective.


      
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April 23, 2014, 08:02:52 PM
 #203

I really don't care for MSC since it obviously is a flawed concept and has no real intrinsic value.

Can you summarize the reasons you think that? not quarreling here, just genuinely interested. i can't see any "obvious" reason.


MSC is based on an idea that you can stuff arbitrary information into a bitcoin transaction.   However, it does not leverage Bitcoin's main capability, that is, the ability to prevent double spending.   You can use any protocol (http, smtp) to enable MSC.  The use of Bitcoin's network is more hype than substance.

That’s an opinion, in my opinion, not an obvious “flaw” that can be logically argued.  For your premise, that “Bitcoin’s main capability” is in its “ability to prevent double spending,” you are correct, MSC does not leverage this capability yet.  But that doesn’t mean that it won’t in the future.

We’re just beginning to scratch the surface of what effects “conditionality” can have on trustless transactions on an open, secure ledger.  Time will tell, but more will come.

If you’ve got any ideas, let us know.  We strongly believe that our critics will be our strongest influence in making the Master Protocol become more advanced with more useful features.  The more masterminds the better, so please continue providing your feedback, and consider contributing to the effort by offering your criticisms in an actionable way.

Thanks,
Craig

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April 23, 2014, 08:03:57 PM
 #204

Any exchange could have enabled the same crowdsale thing.

This is true.  But it wouldn’t be decentralized, which is kind of the point ;-)

Craig

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April 23, 2014, 08:11:00 PM
 #205

I really don't care for MSC since it obviously is a flawed concept and has no real intrinsic value.

Can you summarize the reasons you think that? not quarreling here, just genuinely interested. i can't see any "obvious" reason.


MSC is based on an idea that you can stuff arbitrary information into a bitcoin transaction.   However, it does not leverage Bitcoin's main capability, that is, the ability to prevent double spending.   You can use any protocol (http, smtp) to enable MSC.  The use of Bitcoin's network is more hype than substance.

That’s an opinion, in my opinion, not an obvious “flaw” that can be logically argued.  For your premise, that “Bitcoin’s main capability” is in its “ability to prevent double spending,” you are correct, MSC does not leverage this capability yet.  But that doesn’t mean that it won’t in the future.

We’re just beginning to scratch the surface of what effects “conditionality” can have on trustless transactions on an open, secure ledger.  Time will tell, but more will come.

If you’ve got any ideas, let us know.  We strongly believe that our critics will be our strongest influence in making the Master Protocol become more advanced with more useful features.  The more masterminds the better, so please continue providing your feedback, and consider contributing to the effort by offering your criticisms in an actionable way.

Thanks,
Craig

If MSC does not leverage Bitcoin's double spending prevention, then I don't see any point in using it for moving money around.   MSC probably has its own consensus mechanism to handle this, but like I earlier opined,  it doesn't have to ride on the Bitcoin protocol.

Anyway, this is a SafeCoin thread,  so we best stay on topic.   


      
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April 23, 2014, 08:12:13 PM
 #206

Any exchange could have enabled the same crowdsale thing.

This is true.  But it wouldn’t be decentralized, which is kind of the point ;-)

Craig

Uh....  explain to me where the 'decentralized' part comes to in play here?


      
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April 23, 2014, 08:25:58 PM
 #207

Any exchange could have enabled the same crowdsale thing.

This is true.  But it wouldn’t be decentralized, which is kind of the point ;-)

Craig

Uh....  explain to me where the 'decentralized' part comes to in play here?

Anyone can read the transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain, issue their own crowdsales, etc.  At least four different Master Protocol implementations can decode and encode such transactions, and the logic behind them is agreed upon by the participants of the ecosystem.

No central authority handled this crowdsale.  MaidSafe used the Master Protocol on top of Bitcoin to designate how many MSAFE would be returned automatically upon receipt of MSC, broadcast it to the blockchain, and funds started rolling in.  No servers, no exchanges, someone just needed to "stuff arbitrary information into a bitcoin transaction.” ;-)

Craig

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April 23, 2014, 08:32:12 PM
 #208

Another interesting observation: only 35% of the fund-raiser was funded through BTC, the remaining 65% going to MSC investors. Of those 65%, a whopping 85%, or 248 million Safecoins, went to 15 adresses.


Thanks for calculating, this last sentence make me regret in investing in this project. Smell really fishy for what MSC foundation/Bitangel did.

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April 23, 2014, 08:37:05 PM
 #209

Another interesting observation: only 35% of the fund-raiser was funded through BTC, the remaining 65% going to MSC investors. Of those 65%, a whopping 85%, or 248 million Safecoins, went to 15 adresses.


Thanks for calculating, this last sentence make me regret in investing in this project. Smell really fishy for what MSC foundation/Bitangel did.

The Safecoin folks look to be genuinely interested in innovating to change the world.  No regrets on my part.

 





      
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April 23, 2014, 08:37:57 PM
 #210

2 years -> 1 Safecoin = 2 BTC

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April 23, 2014, 08:38:48 PM
 #211

Another interesting observation: only 35% of the fund-raiser was funded through BTC, the remaining 65% going to MSC investors. Of those 65%, a whopping 85%, or 248 million Safecoins, went to 15 adresses.


Thanks for calculating, this last sentence make me regret in investing in this project. Smell really fishy for what MSC foundation/Bitangel did.

I’m assuming that those large holders are the types to do just that: hold.  It will probably increase the value of your own holdings because those large holders aren’t likely to move their tokens.  When I saw that number, that was my first thought.  No regrets here either.

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April 23, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
 #212

2 years -> 1 Safecoin = 2 BTC

Ridiculous.

Probably a more realistic calculation would be somewhere along the lines of Ripple.  Ripple at its peak had an astonishing market cap of $6 billion.  

Let's say Safecoin achieves say 4.3 billion USD for a brief moment,  the we are talking about $1 per Safecoin.  

So the 1 BTC purchase today would then be worth an astonishing $23,800!

Anyway, let's hope the money we invested in this can generate the hype.


      
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svk31
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April 23, 2014, 08:58:55 PM
 #213

2 years -> 1 Safecoin = 2 BTC

Ridiculous.

Probably a more realistic calculation would be somewhere along the lines of Ripple.  Ripple at its peak had an astonishing market cap of $6 billion.  

Let's say Safecoin achieves say 4.3 billion USD for a brief moment,  the we are talking about $1 per Safecoin.  

So the 1 BTC purchase today would then be worth an astonishing $23,800!

Anyway, let's hope the money we invested in this can generate the hype.
It's difficult to see why either of your guesstimates would ever happen. At this point there's no reason why the Safecoin value would ever appreciate, as there's no actual use for it in the SAFE system. Will it pay for access? Apparently not. Will it pay for apps? Who knows.. Until the Maidsafe folks actually unveil a business plan and usage model for Safecoins, there's nothing to indicate that the value will appreciate other than a fancy exponential graph in a blog post indicating that value will increase then plateau and that it will somehow be inversely related to processing power and storage costs.

That doesn't make any sense though, if processing power and storage costs go towards zero, why would the Safecoin token price increase? Add to this a hefty inflation from farming and the value might actually decrease. I do hope they surprise me though and come up with something awesome, the potential of their technology deserves it.
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April 23, 2014, 09:13:28 PM
 #214



2 years -> 1 Safecoin = 2 BTC

Ridiculous.

Probably a more realistic calculation would be somewhere along the lines of Ripple.  Ripple at its peak had an astonishing market cap of $6 billion.  

Let's say Safecoin achieves say 4.3 billion USD for a brief moment,  the we are talking about $1 per Safecoin.  

So the 1 BTC purchase today would then be worth an astonishing $23,800!

Anyway, let's hope the money we invested in this can generate the hype.
It's difficult to see why either of your guesstimates would ever happen. At this point there's no reason why the Safecoin value would ever appreciate, as there's no actual use for it in the SAFE system. Will it pay for access? Apparently not. Will it pay for apps? Who knows.. Until the Maidsafe folks actually unveil a business plan and usage model for Safecoins, there's nothing to indicate that the value will appreciate other than a fancy exponential graph in a blog post indicating that value will increase then plateau and that it will somehow be inversely related to processing power and storage costs.

That doesn't make any sense though, if processing power and storage costs go towards zero, why would the Safecoin token price increase? Add to this a hefty inflation from farming and the value might actually decrease. I do hope they surprise me though and come up with something awesome, the potential of their technology deserves it.

So explain to me why Ripple hit a market valuation of $6 billion?  There are barely any exchanges that employ Ripple. 

Safecoins are proxies for Proof of Resources.  So essentially, if you need 120GB then you use SafeCoins to acquire that storage space on the cloud.   

Yes, processing power and storage costs do go to zero,  but we always need more of it.   Look at Bitcoin ASIC hardware, they also go to zero at a pace much faster than processing power or storage,   but we always need more of it.   The point is though,  Safecoin doesn't come for free.  You have to spend something to acquire it.   Bitcoin burns energy by running a useless calculation,  so does every other alt-coin out there.  SafeCoin by contrast, does create something of utility,  that is, it create storage.    The other thing is that, SafeCoin is one of the few coins that provides incentives for running an active node.   Bitcoin by contrast only provides incentive for running a miner.

The point I want to make as to why Safecoin has a unique proposition as compared to alt-coins it is likely the only coin out there that creates something of value as a consequence of 'mining'.   

As to the price,  well.... its pure speculation.


      
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April 23, 2014, 09:27:16 PM
 #215

2 years -> 1 Safecoin = 2 BTC

Ridiculous.

Probably a more realistic calculation would be somewhere along the lines of Ripple.  Ripple at its peak had an astonishing market cap of $6 billion.  

Let's say Safecoin achieves say 4.3 billion USD for a brief moment,  the we are talking about $1 per Safecoin.  

So the 1 BTC purchase today would then be worth an astonishing $23,800!

Anyway, let's hope the money we invested in this can generate the hype.
It's difficult to see why either of your guesstimates would ever happen. At this point there's no reason why the Safecoin value would ever appreciate, as there's no actual use for it in the SAFE system. Will it pay for access? Apparently not. Will it pay for apps? Who knows.. Until the Maidsafe folks actually unveil a business plan and usage model for Safecoins, there's nothing to indicate that the value will appreciate other than a fancy exponential graph in a blog post indicating that value will increase then plateau and that it will somehow be inversely related to processing power and storage costs.

That doesn't make any sense though, if processing power and storage costs go towards zero, why would the Safecoin token price increase? Add to this a hefty inflation from farming and the value might actually decrease. I do hope they surprise me though and come up with something awesome, the potential of their technology deserves it.

It's an experimental business model for sure, but it could work really well.  Farmers know their storage is of value and now have access to that value.  When I farm and 'rent out' my spare disk space on the Safe network I'm not just going to give those Safecoins away for free, because I know I've provided something of value in exchange for them.  The safecoins have given me access to that value.  So now the Safecoins have value. All farmers will probably feel like this, that their safecoins have value roughly equivalent to the storage space they offered the network and so farmers will give value to their Safecoins.  I know I certainly will.  The farmers and investors and the whole Maidsafe community decide the price.  The users of the network also want Safecoins to have value, after all they don't want the network to go down.  

We've seen it a hundred times with altcoins, except this altcoin (dare I do it the injustice of calling it that) is aiming to rebuild the entire Internet and so potentially has a huge community which will give value to Safecoins.  

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April 23, 2014, 09:28:34 PM
 #216

IIRC - the 10% IPO means the capitalization at launch will be $160 million.  That's a risky investment for people who poured BTC into this.   It's easier said than done to hit $1 billion or $10 billion.  

You have to factor in the farmers, like miners, who'll be dumping to meet their overhead.  I'm pretty certain this IPO was never determined to be a good investment.

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
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April 23, 2014, 09:29:47 PM
 #217

Is the IPO already over?
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April 23, 2014, 09:31:51 PM
 #218

You can still buy safecoins by sending BTC to the BTC address. http://www.safecoin.io/ suggests it's open until they've received 7341BTC.. see current total at https://blockchain.info/address/1KHfLixa2idRnZXMUfEisBati1vpywaH6E

฿://1CBxm54Ah5hiYxiUtD7JGYRXykT5Z6ZuMc
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April 23, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
 #219

Guys. Check the big btc amount investments, most addresses can only be traceable 1 or 2 steps back.

This is a whale, sending his own coins to that address, making it look as if many are investing, just to steal your coins in the process.

Please don't fall for it, skip this one and thank me after you see the same thing happen here as it did with Edgecoin.

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April 23, 2014, 09:36:00 PM
 #220

IIRC - the 10% IPO means the capitalization at launch will be $160 million.  That's a risky investment for people who poured BTC into this.   It's easier said than done to hit $1 billion or $10 billion.  

You have to factor in the farmers, like miners, who'll be dumping to meet their overhead.  I'm pretty certain this IPO was never determined to be a good investment.


I think the proper calculation of market cap should be float.  Let's say 10% (IPO) + 15% (DEV) = 25% has been floated, so we are really talking here about around a $15 million market cap.   Note that the other SafeCoins still need to be farmed.   It is the analagous to BTC, where 12 million exists today but another 12 million still need to be mined.  

$15 million market cap.... not bad considering the amount of innovation in this coin.


      
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