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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4641882 times)
AlexGR
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May 22, 2014, 06:38:26 PM
 #3381

Masternodes are such a blatantly broken idea I cannot imagine someone encourages it in good faith. How do masternodes/miners/whoever verify if a coin is not double spent and originates from a wallet with sufficient balance if they don't know what they are transacting? There are three options:

1. Zero-knowledge proofs, but that is Zerocoin at the moment and the drawbacks are catastrophic.
2. Ring signatures and similar mixing constructs that hide the sender in a subset of the network.
3. Some other information leak that is not documented.

Do you understand why there is no other way?

We'll find out what Evan has in store. I'm not coding the thing. I read something about the users doing the mixing

Quote
If the New and Improved DRK implements 2, then it has at most the same strength as MRO and possibly less, with the added bonus(?) of more, unnecessary centralization. If it implements 3, then it is a failed anonymity solution. The short answer is that ring signatures are cryptographically near-perfect mixing and no Bitcoin fork can ever natively support them.

Native support is not a requirement.
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billotronic
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May 22, 2014, 06:39:09 PM
 #3382

Monero only has Ring Signatures going for it, which has terrible issues such as bloating and scaling

That is all Monero needs, a little bloat and scaling issues for now are a side effect of having a proper anonymous network.


lol. Anyone talking about bloat should go see how many weeks it would take to synch the BTC blockchain from scratch. ffs.

This post sums up why all this bullshit is a scam
Read It. Hate It. Change the facts that it represents.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1606638.msg16139644#msg16139644
AlexGR
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May 22, 2014, 06:44:56 PM
 #3383

Monero only has Ring Signatures going for it, which has terrible issues such as bloating and scaling

That is all Monero needs, a little bloat and scaling issues for now are a side effect of having a proper anonymous network.


lol. Anyone talking about bloat should go see how many weeks it would take to synch the BTC blockchain from scratch. ffs.

Imagine this X8.
surfer43
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May 22, 2014, 06:45:34 PM
 #3384

http://moneropool.org has sent payments for the last 2 days! It has a 10% mining bonus for now Wink
ibleed100s
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May 22, 2014, 06:54:32 PM
 #3385

Can Someone please let me know everytime im mine with the cpuminer fork i get errors after like 5-10 min of mining? and updated miner of this fork?


[2014-05-23 04:53:43] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:53:43] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] ...retry after 10 seconds



sorryforthat
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May 22, 2014, 06:58:27 PM
 #3386

Can Someone please let me know everytime im mine with the cpuminer fork i get errors after like 5-10 min of mining? and updated miner of this fork?
[2014-05-23 04:53:43] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:53:43] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:53:55] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:54:06] ...retry after 10 seconds
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] json_rpc2.0 error: Unknown job id
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] submit_upstream_work json_rpc_call failed
[2014-05-23 04:54:17] ...retry after 10 seconds

You should ask this on the pool that you are minings thread.
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May 22, 2014, 07:01:14 PM
 #3387

Buy and sell your MRO at https://cryptonote.exchange.to

Don't use Poloniex. Had several withdrawal issues, site constantly fails to load...
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May 22, 2014, 07:06:33 PM
 #3388



thats all you need to know about DRK.

Is that really true?

No wonder the guy behind it is supporting it like it's his full time job.
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May 22, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
Last edit: May 22, 2014, 07:58:31 PM by eizh
 #3389

Bytecoin will also have to fix it's own issues to become NSA-proof. As it is right now, it is not. And the extremely low transaction volume in its network doesn't allow for much mixing (same applies for clones). Mixing without volume = problem. Darkcoin has a tremendous advantage in that department.

I'm afraid with that, you show you have no clue what ring signatures even are. This is actually where CryptoNote outperforms DRK by a massive margin that cannot be closed. DRK, like just about all altcoins, has a microscopic volume in the bigger financial picture - only BTC (and maybe LTC) has the consistent volume to pull off half-usable CoinJoin since it requires other participants. Ring signatures do perfect mixing with arbitrary amounts and arbitrarily low volume. And I do mean perfect (bounded by the anonymity set). They are the theoretical limit that CoinJoin can't approach. ZKP is also perfect, but with a larger anonymity set that comes with other costs.

You also don't seem to understand 'bloating'. Because that's actually not even it - the issue is pruning. All cryptographically strong anonymity solutions cannot perform pruning because they, by nature, need outputs from far in the past. Why? Because that's precisely how you get a large anonymity set! The very reason Bitcoin and Bitcoin-clones like DRK can perform pruning is because their anonymity is of low quality and fundamentally limited to that low quality. Saying a system has '99.99% anonymity' when you don't seem to understand the concept of an anonymity set is kind of silly, no?

There actually are (inconvenient) ways to prune ring signature or zero knowledge currencies. But here we are in 2014 with a large Bitcoin blockchain and we're doing fine. Hardware and network improvements have outpaced the blockchain growth. If sync time is your argument against actual anonymity rather than pretend anonymity, that's rather unconvincing.
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May 22, 2014, 07:36:39 PM
 #3390

Bytecoin will also have to fix it's own issues to become NSA-proof. As it is right now, it is not. And the extremely low transaction volume in its network doesn't allow for much mixing (same applies for clones). Mixing without volume = problem. Darkcoin has a tremendous advantage in that department.

I'm afraid with that, you show you have no clue what ring signatures even are. This is actually where CryptoNote outperforms DRK by a massive margin that cannot be closed. DRK, like just about all altcoins, has a microscopic volume in the bigger financial picture - only BTC (and maybe LTC) has the consistent volume to pull off half-usable CoinJoin since it requires other participants. Ring signatures do perfect mixing with arbitrary amounts and arbitrarily low volume. And I do mean perfect. They are the theoretical limit that CoinJoin can't approach. ZKP is also perfect, but with a larger anonymity set that comes with other costs.

You also don't seem to understand 'bloating'. Because that's actually not even it - the issue is pruning. All cryptographically strong anonymity solutions cannot perform pruning because they, by nature, need outputs from far in the past. Why? Because that's precisely how you get a large anonymity set! The very reason Bitcoin and Bitcoin-clones like DRK can perform pruning is because their anonymity is of low quality and fundamentally limited to that low quality. Saying a system has '99.99% anonymity' when you don't seem to understand the concept of an anonymity set is kinda of silly, no?

There actually are (inconvenient) ways to prune ring signature or zero knowledge currencies.
But here we are in 2014 with a large Bitcoin blockchain and we're doing fine. Hardware and network improvements have outpaced the blockchain growth. If sync time is your argument against actual anonymity rather than pretend anonymity, that's rather unconvincing.

Very nice post sir.

How did you gain this deep knowledge of the protocols? If you are a coin dev if it would be great to have you on board this project.
eizh
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May 22, 2014, 07:40:19 PM
 #3391


Very nice post sir.

How did you gain this deep knowledge of the protocols? If you are a coin dev if it would be great to have you on board this project.

My knowledge isn't deep, I just read up on things said by people who do have deep knowledge. Cheesy

One should understand his own investments and the competition before investing, no? This seems to escape most people, who prefer to latch on to a few words that they think they understand (and then go on a trolling spree).
pbleak
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May 22, 2014, 07:41:35 PM
 #3392

Hmm, not sure about those exchanges at all. Any hope of a cheeky Monero donation to help me get in  Smiley
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May 22, 2014, 07:43:18 PM
 #3393

New pool: extremehash.com, based in the US

The pool found a block overnight, any idea when it  is going to be paid out?

You do realize they wait 60 confirms, right?

Right, it was found few hours ago, so there have been more than 60 confirmations for sure. The maturity block counter on the pool page upon page refresh displays negative numbers that are decreasing, so I am pretty sure that the block is already confirmed. In addition, the time the block was found is reported as 1 AM, which regardless of the US timezone is far enough in the past.

To the operator of extremehash.com, thank you for fixing the payouts issue, working fine now!
daeminium
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May 22, 2014, 07:44:29 PM
 #3394

no profit calculator?
equipoise
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May 22, 2014, 07:45:31 PM
 #3395

^freenode -> #monero -> !calc

About me | zRMicroArray - phase 2 - Gene Expression Analysis software | [Weed Like to Talk - Bulgaria] Start a wave of cannabis seminars in Europe | Monero weighted average price stats: moneroprice.i2p
BTC: 1KoCX7TWKVGwqmmFw3CKyUSrKRSStueZar | NMC: NKhYEYpe1Le9MwHrwKsdSm5617J4toVar9 | XMR (Tip me a beer OpenAlias Monero address): tip.changetheworldwork.com
[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency: 4AyRmUcxzefB5quumzK3HNE4zmCiGc8vhG6fE1oJpGVyVZF7fvDgSpt3MzgLfQ6Q1719xQhmfkM9Z2u NXgDMqYhjJVmc6KX
reesev
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May 22, 2014, 07:46:24 PM
 #3396

seems like a great investment.  Hope it pays off!
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May 22, 2014, 07:48:43 PM
 #3397

^freenode -> #monero -> !calc

Thanks  Cheesy
AlexGR
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May 22, 2014, 07:59:42 PM
 #3398

If sync time is your argument against actual anonymity rather than pretend anonymity, that's rather unconvincing.

Ok, I'm clueless.

Question: Is Anonymint clueless? Is he blind that he does not see "actual anonymity"? When he says that most of the anonymity will come from IP obfuscation, is that a vote of confidence for the protocol itself?

CryptoNote / Monero et al

CryptoNote's one-time ring signature as a way of obfuscating who is the payer (the spender), is optional and can only be used when there are other payees who have matching input amounts. In other words, it can't do any obfuscation for you on spending unless there are other coins that have the same balance as yours.

That very infrequent opportunity for use is coupled with constant use of elliptical curve cryptography which is known to be broken under quantum computing, as well is suspect to broken by the NSA[1] or could be broken since it is number theoretic public key cryptography.

And the use of one-time ring signatures mucks up the pruning of the block chain of spent addresses. There is a tweak to improve this over the current CryptoNote (one of the tweaks I alluded to upthread).

Bottom line is most of your anonymity will come from obfuscating your IP address with something more reliable than Tor and I2P, not from the block chain mixing of CryptoNote or Zerocash/coin, i.e. if your IP is correlated to your identity, then the one-time ring signature doesn't obscure your identity when you spend.

The case where the one-time ring signature is really useful is a transaction with multiple inputs wherein the spender is merging his coins, thus enabling tracing of those coins to the same entity (the current spender). And it is very unfortunate the one-time ring signature is optional in this case, because it is the identity of the upchain spenders who suffer from this action by the current spender, thus the motivation is not there.

So we can see as it is currently structured, CryptoNote doesn't really support anonymity much.

Sorry to blow holes in your enthusiasm. Reality sucks if you haven't taken the time to do some serious work before launching.

Note that the use of a separate payee address for each transaction is a very useful strategy. This is a positive aspect of CryptoNote that adds anonymity, but again it is not so effective without reliable IP obfuscation, as the payee will reveal himself on spending.
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May 22, 2014, 08:05:39 PM
 #3399


here is crypto-zoigberg response to annonymints concerns: maybe somone with knowledge can compare and discuss



CryptoNote's one-time ring signature as a way of obfuscating who is the payer (the spender), is optional and can only be used when there are other payees who have matching input amounts. In other words, it can't do any obfuscation for you on spending unless there are other coins that have the same balance as yours.
[/quote]
That's why coinbase and wallet by default split outs into standart amounts, and when you need to send money to someone  anonymously you almost always have some outs for mixin, you can learn this in Bytecoin blockchain, just check blockchain index.


That very infrequent opportunity for use is coupled with constant use of elliptical curve cryptography which is known to be broken under quantum computing, as well is suspect to broken by the NSA[1] or could be broken since it is number theoretic public key cryptography.
Quantum computer is like Schrödinger's cat - it is both real and unreal.  Grin  
The worst that can happend in case that quantum computer will become a real is hard fork.

And the use of one-time ring signatures mucks up the pruning of the block chain of spent addresses. There is a tweak to improve this over the current CryptoNote (one of the tweaks I alluded to upthread).
For this reason in Boolberry we chaged tx identification from whole blob hash to tx_prefix hash, and when blockchain entry will be covered by checkpoin the ring signatures could be cutoff.

Bottom line is most of your anonymity will come from obfuscating your IP address with something more reliable than Tor and I2P, not from the block chain mixing of CryptoNote or Zerocash/coin, i.e. if your IP is correlated to your identity, then the one-time ring signature doesn't obscure your identity when you spend.
I disagree with you here.
Crypto-currency, particularly Boolberry/CryptoNote, is a set of rules which is obligatory for all. First of all it is a currency_core that doesn't even know about network protocols or ip addresses.
It's just guarantees compliance with currency rules.
You (or anonymint) actually talks here about the way of delivering transactions to crypto currency net. But even if we don't provide a way to anonymize your ip now, just act via third party anonymizer if you prefer.

The case where the one-time ring signature is really useful is a transaction with multiple inputs wherein the spender is merging his coins, thus enabling tracing of those coins to the same entity (the current spender). And it is very unfortunate the one-time ring signature is optional in this case, because it is the identity of the upchain spenders who suffer from this action by the current spender, thus the motivation is not there.
If i understand you right, we solved this problem by adding attribute to each out, that can force spender to use this out only with ring singature.

So we can see as it is currently structured, CryptoNote doesn't really support anonymity much.
Sorry to blow holes in your enthusiasm. Reality sucks if you haven't taken the time to do some serious work before launching.
Note that the use of a separate payee address for each transaction is a very useful strategy. This is a positive aspect of CryptoNote that adds anonymity, but again it is not so effective without reliable IP obfuscation, as the payee will reveal himself on spending.

Thanks for this post, you didn't blew holes in our enthusiasm. We still belive that this is most interesting technology in crypto-currencies field.

[/quote]
[/quote]
fluffypony
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May 22, 2014, 08:09:25 PM
 #3400

Very nice post sir.

How did you gain this deep knowledge of the protocols? If you are a coin dev if it would be great to have you on board this project.

That's why eizh is on the core team:)

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