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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4633604 times)
smooth
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May 22, 2014, 01:01:36 AM
 #3201

Nobody uses botnets to mine coins, a constantly pegged CPU is very noticeable to just about anyone with a pulse.
For your education: DKOM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_kernel_object_manipulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unlinking_EPROCESS.png

It's fairly trivial for a rootkit to entirely hide a process.  You can quite literally run a CPU miner and the processor usage sits under idle in all task managers.

You can't hide the temperature (especially on a laptop, meaning a huge share of computers now) and fans going.

You can mine only at a low level of usage without being noticed, but then you greatly reduce your output. And even then, it won't matter once the coin is widely adopted, because legitimate users will far outnumber botnets, and will drive the difficulty up to where professional miners (including botnet operators) won't be interested.

This conversation is fairly pointless though. This is a designed (legitimately, unlike most of the others) as a CPU coin and its going to remain a CPU coin for the immediate future, until perhaps a design flaw or other technological obstacle gets in the way.

If you don't like CPU coins, you should just move on to one of the hundreds of GPU and/or ASIC coins. If you stay here and post negatively about it, you are clearly being a troll or FUD bombing. Its all quite transparent.

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May 22, 2014, 01:04:37 AM
 #3202

Last I checked, discrete GPUs are an expensive technology largely confined to rich white Western males. Let's not pretend it's 'fair'. Just like everyone else, they're an interest group trying to serve themselves. It's actually a rather tiny community in the grand scheme (the world is pretty big), but they have a disproportionate presence on this forum.
Still, everyone can go buy a GPU - level playing field.  Not everyone can (and definitely should not) go create a large botnet and abuse their CPUs...

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It's sure as hell more fair than hackers having 100, 200, 300 computer botnet farms mining CPU only coins.
Far more likely that the majority of the hashrate comes from people around the world renting VM instances mining MRO and paying for it.  
Lol.. no, it really isn't more likely.  Botnet is WAY more likely based on the history of CPU coins.

You're wrong about this. I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone who paid a lot of money for a lot of servers to mine this coin. He won't be outed by me ever but he does in fact exist. Truth.

There is little to no evidence of any massive botnet involvement with this coin. If and when it does happen, you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners, because the miners get incorporated into malware. If you knew as much as you claim to know about botnet mining, you would know this.

FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?

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May 22, 2014, 01:08:55 AM
 #3203

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FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?


My estimation is he owns some DRK, but not enough to sell and hedge his bets with MRO so he's feeling threatened.  Either that or hes got a couple of R9's.  

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May 22, 2014, 01:12:03 AM
 #3204

I bought it at 50K sats... Cry
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May 22, 2014, 01:12:36 AM
 #3205

The biggest thing Monero would benefit from right now, is a GPU miner.  CPU-only is a guaranteed way to put the majority of the coins in the hands of criminals/botnet owners.

Will Monero ever have a GPU miner?

CryptoNote is about more than just privacy. It's about freedom. That's the point of egalitarian mining. Live in an oppressive state? Fuck you, government! Anyone with an internet connection can download the miner and receive a fair share of money. What's the point of anonymous transactions if only priviledged individuals can get the coins? What's the point of a fair launch and fair distribution if the rich get disproportionately richer via priviledged mining?

I'm sorry if you have a snazzy GPU farm that you're dieing to take advantage of, but Monero doesn't play favorites. It goes against the entire philosophy of this currency. I'm fairly certain that the developers and other contributing parties agree with me (speak up if you don't). Even if they are unanimously brainwashed into thinking GPU mining is a good idea, I will fight tooth and nail to make sure it never gets implemented. I swear to God, I will haunt this thread for as long as it exists and scare the bejesus out of anyone who dares to come up with some half-brained argument to enable privileged mining.
Absolutely absurd.  CPU mined coins are not "fair" in any measurable way.  CPU-only mining results in botnet owners/criminals manipulating the network.  Period.  Your cheap i3 will never get a reasonable portion of the network, because there will be millions of drone computers mining for their masters.  GPU mining levels the field.

Actually I don't think a GPU can be faster one-on-one, as the PoW depends heavily on the characteristics of the CPU. If CryptoNight ASICS do become a reality, I believe the GPU mining phase will be skipped entirely.
Highly unlikely.  This was said about scrypt (which became rapidly GPU mined) - in fact many things ring very similar. The main 'protections' against GPUs and ASICs that are claimed of CryptoNight are related to L3 cache speed and scratchpad size requirements.  Guess what?  The same was said about scrypt...

I was waiting to discuss this in more detail until the AES-NI optimizations were released.

So let's jump in:

CryptoNight makes three decisions differently than scrypt does:
  - Its central bit-mixing function is one round of AES, which is a single instruction on modern Intel CPUs, but requires quite a bit more computation on GPUs.
  - It mixes in 128-bit quantities instead of the 512-bit quantities that scrypt does.  This favors CPUs a bit because the wider memory bus of the GPU won't provide an advantage.
   - It writes back to the mixing scratchpad to prevent LOOKUP_GAP style optimizations.

I said it earlier:  I think CN is GPU-able.  But these design differences *will* shrink the CPU-to-GPU gap compared to scrypt.  My *hunch* is that GPUs will still have a slight advantage in cost-per-hash-per-second, but I'm honestly not sure.  The designers of this PoW clearly learned from scrypt and made progress.  I look forward to seeing what happens on this one - whomever designed the PoW was clever.


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May 22, 2014, 01:12:48 AM
 #3206

you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners

This happened to me today, for the first time.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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May 22, 2014, 01:20:15 AM
 #3207

You're wrong about this. I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone who paid a lot of money for a lot of servers to mine this coin. He won't be outed by me ever but he does in fact exist. Truth.

There is little to no evidence of any massive botnet involvement with this coin. If and when it does happen, you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners, because the miners get incorporated into malware. If you knew as much as you claim to know about botnet mining, you would know this.

FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?
Hah... sounds more like FUD to me then anything else posted here.  "I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone".... WHOA NELLY! STOP THE PRESSES!

And there is at least one version of the miner that is definitely detected (falsely) by AV now.

I'd say your FUD bombing AND trolling... I was trying to extend a conversation about why GPU mining would be a positive step.
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May 22, 2014, 01:20:48 AM
 #3208

you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners

This happened to me today, for the first time.


Okay, well that being the case there probably is malware mining the coin, but if you know where to look you can still tell its not happening on a large scale. At least not yet.

What miner got flagged? If it was cpuminer, that could be a flag left over from the old (pre-CryptoNight) cpuminer. If simpleminer got flagged, that's pretty likely a real hit.



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May 22, 2014, 01:22:32 AM
 #3209

You're wrong about this. I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone who paid a lot of money for a lot of servers to mine this coin. He won't be outed by me ever but he does in fact exist. Truth.

There is little to no evidence of any massive botnet involvement with this coin. If and when it does happen, you will see malware detectors (false positive) flagging the miners, because the miners get incorporated into malware. If you knew as much as you claim to know about botnet mining, you would know this.

FUD bombing or trolling, which is it?
Hah... sounds more like FUD to me then anything else posted here.  "I have a screen shot that was PMed to me by someone".... WHOA NELLY! STOP THE PRESSES!

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Perhaps the sender will come forward, or send the same screen shot to others who can confirm. Or perhaps he doesn't care enough to do that. I have no idea, and I respect his privacy.

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May 22, 2014, 01:24:21 AM
 #3210

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Perhaps the sender will come forward, or send the same screen shot to others who can confirm. Or perhaps he doesn't care enough to do that. I have no idea, and I respect his privacy.
You evidently missed part of my sarcasm - a screenshot doesn't prove anything either...
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May 22, 2014, 01:30:06 AM
 #3211

What miner got flagged?

monero.win.x64.0520.zip was flagged on download.  

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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May 22, 2014, 01:37:10 AM
 #3212

Focus on the coin, the market will sort everything else out. That said I still believe that the coin distribution is terrible right now but getting better every day.

Disclaimer: I hold both DRK and MRO.
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May 22, 2014, 01:42:52 AM
 #3213

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Perhaps the sender will come forward, or send the same screen shot to others who can confirm. Or perhaps he doesn't care enough to do that. I have no idea, and I respect his privacy.
You evidently missed part of my sarcasm - a screenshot doesn't prove anything either...

It proves it enough.  Seriously dude, do you think if you complain enough that the devs are going to say "well, since phzi seems really upset about not being able to mine MRO with his gaming cards, we're going to rewrite the hashing aglo and hard fork MRO so that he feels hes not being cheated out of coins that he doesn't have in the first place"?
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May 22, 2014, 01:44:45 AM
 #3214

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. Perhaps the sender will come forward, or send the same screen shot to others who can confirm. Or perhaps he doesn't care enough to do that. I have no idea, and I respect his privacy.
You evidently missed part of my sarcasm - a screenshot doesn't prove anything either...

It proves it enough.  Seriously dude, do you think if you complain enough that the devs are going to say "well, since phzi seems really upset about not being able to mine MRO with his gaming cards, we're going to rewrite the hashing aglo and hard fork MRO so that he feels hes not being cheated out of coins that he doesn't have in the first place." 

Miners have gotten all to comfortable with the GPU way of doing things.
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May 22, 2014, 01:50:05 AM
 #3215

What miner got flagged?

monero.win.x64.0520.zip was flagged on download.  



https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/8d0567994062954334723137ef2a463516cc0e69f51a0292dd181d0963f8ecde/analysis/1400722832/


Looks absolutely fine.


PS: Botnets need coins with a high liquidity to cashout everything they have...and thats just litecoin or maybe doge at the moment. They also have no problem using cgminer instead of minerd...If you want to get rid of Botnets, you need ASICs - if thats better in the End is very questionable.

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May 22, 2014, 01:51:08 AM
 #3216

The Easy Miner link is broken in the OP and on the web site.
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May 22, 2014, 01:54:11 AM
 #3217

If you want to get rid of Botnets, you need ASICs - if thats better in the End is very questionable.

We don't want to get rid of botnets. We love botnets. Monero <3 botnets.
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May 22, 2014, 01:54:19 AM
 #3218

Well if not Botnets then who is making money mining?  I have had 4 computers mining 24/7 for several days for a grand total of 0.16  MRO.  So clearly this isn't profitable for anyone who isn't running a massive botnet.

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May 22, 2014, 02:00:08 AM
 #3219

Well if not Botnets then who is making money mining?  I have had 4 computers mining 24/7 for several days for a grand total of 0.16  MRO.  So clearly this isn't profitable for anyone who isn't running a massive botnet.

Those were either very low end computers or you got screwed by polls not working very well (I tried to warn everyone), using an unoptimized miner, or just getting unlucky. A single 4770 class machine (very roughly 100 h/s IIRC) should make about a coin and a half per day at 100M difficulty (and it wasn't that high until the past few days). That's roughly 100 times what you got. Not right.
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May 22, 2014, 02:00:38 AM
 #3220

If you want to get rid of Botnets, you need ASICs - if thats better in the End is very questionable.

We don't want to get rid of botnets. We love botnets.

Thank you. I may put that on my sig. Let me try it out for fun:

---
Monero <3 botnets.

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