[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I don't post a lot here, but it just occurred to me, if Dash is flawed, why hasn't it been attacked and it's flaws been exposed ? Or has it ?

This bridge was just fine for five months. Then it wasn't.

Dinosaurs roamed the earth for 135 million years. (By contrast humans have been here for a million or so.) Then they didn't.

etc.

See why your argument doesn't quite work?

Not really. I was under the impression some like to hack and attack coins for sport or to prove a point or to learn. GingerAle's answer seems to be the correct answer to me : the flaws are only exposable with enough resources.
  

Try to put yourself in the position of a malicious attacker. If you have an exploit that you can use repeatedly for personal or financial gain, how quickly would you be willing to announce your discovery?

With that in mind, how important is it for a system that deals with other people's money to be cryptographically secure?

[villabacho]

Can we cool off posting in Darkcoin threads? It is nothing but beating dead horses. Fools cant be helped and its certainly getting us a bad name

I would ask the same.  2 of the core monero devs (Smooth and Fluffypony) have been posting fulltime in DRK thread and reddit for days: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg10862640#msg10862640

a lot of people are asking why - this is very unusual for a top 20 coin.  And drk is in the top 5 so why are they bothered to spend all there time there instead of here.  IDK.

I can't speak for them but I would image its for the same reason Bitcoin core developers spoke out against HashFast, etc: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ze69c/core_developer_gmaxwell_speaks_out_against/

 

are there actually any real investors here lol? talk about scams - thanks for the education thankfully it cost me $0

If you're invested in drk for the duration, it will cost you all your investment. If you're using drk and the FBI gets interested, it will cost you all your privacy, and if you think you're fooling anyone with your concerned troll act, you're all mistaken.

If I was concern trolling, I would repost minor variations of above text every 30 minutes for 3 days non-stop, like the Monero core dev 'Smooth' does on the DRK thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=13813;sa=showPosts

instead I made my point, cheers

just compare the entropy of smooth's posts to that of yours *chuckle*

[smooth]

I don't post a lot here, but it just occurred to me, if Dash is flawed, why hasn't it been attacked and it's flaws been exposed ? Or has it ?

This bridge was just fine for five months. Then it wasn't.

Dinosaurs roamed the earth for 135 million years. (By contrast humans have been here for a million or so.) Then they didn't.

etc.

See why your argument doesn't quite work?

Not really. I was under the impression some like to hack and attack coins for sport or to prove a point or to learn. GingerAle's answer seems to be the correct answer to me : the flaws are only exposable with enough resources.
  

Try to put yourself in the position of a malicious attacker. If you have an exploit that you can use repeatedly for personal or financial gain, how quickly would you be willing to announce your discovery?

With that in mind, how important is it for a system that deals with other people's money to be cryptographically secure?

I don't know for sure but I don't think that's actually it. A problem with holding an exploit in your pocket is that someone else might use it or it might get fixed.

Mostly I think people just don't care about DRK very much. People are constantly trying to find exploits for Window, Linux, Android, etc. Maybe even Bitcoin. If anyone at all is trying to find exploit for DRK it can't be very many people, nor are they likely putting much time or effort into it.

There is a huge amount of self-importance in these coin communities where people think their tiny little project matters very much just because it is a "top 10" coin or whatever. In the bigger picture they really don't.

EDIT: Oh I misunderstood JM's point. I think he was saying that even if it were being exploited, you wouldn't know about it. I agree. That is likely true of most active exploits.

[xa4]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

  

      

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

It's the opposite, actually. Darkcoin/Dash's privacy claims don't have the mathematics to back them up.

It's their responsibility to back up their claims, not ours to disprove them.

[smooth]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

What the hell does it even mean to prove something "even mathematically" about a large, complex piece of software that has no formal specification?.

Don't bother to answer, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

[xa4]

I don't post a lot here, but it just occurred to me, if Dash is flawed, why hasn't it been attacked and it's flaws been exposed ? Or has it ?

This bridge was just fine for five months. Then it wasn't.

Dinosaurs roamed the earth for 135 million years. (By contrast humans have been here for a million or so.) Then they didn't.

etc.

See why your argument doesn't quite work?

Not really. I was under the impression some like to hack and attack coins for sport or to prove a point or to learn. GingerAle's answer seems to be the correct answer to me : the flaws are only exposable with enough resources.
  

Try to put yourself in the position of a malicious attacker. If you have an exploit that you can use repeatedly for personal or financial gain, how quickly would you be willing to announce your discovery?

With that in mind, how important is it for a system that deals with other people's money to be cryptographically secure?

Very important.

Maybe I'm jumping conclusions here, but are you saying there is/are probably exploits being exploited in Dash right now, because it's flawed ?

[HinnomTX]

the short answer = resources. What darkcoin does can be broken with enough resources (massive analysis efforts and masternode control etc).

IMO, it hasn't been attacked because there is no incentive yet. No one has actually done anything with it yet that would warrant an investigation from law enforcement agencies.

Resources as in deep pockets. You have to buy a lot of DASH/DRK to secure a good percentage of the 2300 masternodes in operation (it's about $5k per masternode today), and you'll drive up the price almost surely. Then, while you attack the network as a nefarious masternode (presumably by analyzing traffic and exposing Dashsend mixes or perhaps trying to DDoS other masternodes to get more than your fair share of payments, etc.) you'll sacrifice your investment, if only for a while. To what end? Most likely, just to demonstrate a vulnerability. Since it's software that runs on a 2-tiered network, you'll just cripple the features provided by the second tier (Dashsend and Instant-X) while the Bitcoin-based blockchain keeps humming along. Meanwhile the developers fix the software and roll it out to the network, which typically reaches supermajority with the latest version within about 6 hours. Note that this has already happened a few times when masternode authentication and payment enforcement had some vulnerabilities that were corrected.  

So please, I relish the thought of someone doing this, because in the long run it will serve to harden the DASH network.  

[xa4]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

What the hell does it even mean to prove something "even mathematically" about a large, complex piece of software that has no formal specification?.

Don't bother to answer, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

Wow, calm down man. This was an honest question.

[smooth]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

What the hell does it even mean to prove something "even mathematically" about a large, complex piece of software that has no formal specification?.

Don't bother to answer, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

Wow, calm down man. This was an honest question.

It can't be an "honest question" because it doesn't even make sense.

So you are either:

1. Ignorant and just blinding repeating talking points as a shill (or worse not ignorant but saying something you know to be nonsense as a shill)

2. Making up random shit to say about "maths and stuff" because you think it makes you sound smart and makes your favorite unproven ad-hoc system sound secure. It does neither.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Maybe I'm jumping conclusions here, but are you saying there is/are probably exploits being exploited in Dash right now, because it's flawed ?

I'm only saying that we wouldn't know either way. The fact that nobody is stepping forward with an exploit does not make a system secure.

[dewdeded]

I'm curious why your community get interested in the technology behind DRK right now ?
Why not before two or three or more months ?

This is incorrect, as you can see, for e.g. under https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg5799938#msg5799938 I am involved over 12 months now. I follow and post about DarkCoin since it first week. I even hold a small amount, I bought 10 days after release, with my last LTC.

I have huge respect for all german members of your team. I personally know Holger "flare" Schinzel over 10 years now. And often chat with vertoe and Aswan on FreeNode. I think paying full nodes is a great idea and Evan can code. I am really not biased against your project.

Obviously I know, no technical educated member post in your main thread today and why your community is now this way. But it is not a good situation for your project and the whole altcoin space.

Why I dont post at DarkCoinTalk.org? Because I dont have enough time, to read so many different boards. I am interested in BitShares, Ethereum, Ripple, MaidSafeCoin, NEM and many more coins. That's why I demand/want discussion here and not in coin-specific forums.
I don't even have an account at forum.monero.cc.

Why I posted this observation:

1.) I was disappointed by the development. 3/4 of the last year friendly, objective discussions with (most) DarkCoiners was possible, even in your (spamy) main thread.

2.) I was shocked by the growing number of posters with this superiority-talk (DarkCoin overtaking BTC market cap next year, the talk about technology leadership against Bitcoin, increased arrogance & aggressiveness towards other projects (DarkWallet, BTC Sidechains) or (privacy) coins.
And the many many postings about price, coming bubble, next ATH, moon, etc. Sometimes your threads reads like an daytrading forum. All reminded me of alot of LTC or other failed projects.

It's ironic, when DarkCoin was new, DarkCoiners had alot to suffer from harassment done by LiteCoiners and some (Anti Altcoin) Bitcoiners. They should know how this feels and how toxic the LTC community got with this kind of attitude. Leading to many neutral people leaving the LTC community. And later to total lazyness and a loss of reality. The early DarkCoiners exactly noticed these problems resulting out of this, inside the LTC community back in early 2014. Now it looks like, history may repeat itself.
I hope for you it doesn't.

3.) And as I strongly believe in and experienced it alot in my whole business life, to have a friendly, open-minded, helpfull & enjoyable community is a HUGE Asset and very often a critical success factor, deciding who's company/project/network is going to win in the market.
So I felt inside my heart, I have to say what is on my mind.
We have to be careful to maintain our positive community spirit and climate, because as shown by DarkCoin now, if skilled people and know-how holders decide not to post. The project suffers alot and the problem is increasing even more.

[xa4]

Ok. That was philosophical.

So, people saying Dash is flawed can't prove it, even mathematically. I thought there was more evidence, at least evidence MasterNodes could be corrupted.

What the hell does it even mean to prove something "even mathematically" about a large, complex piece of software that has no formal specification?.

Don't bother to answer, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

Wow, calm down man. This was an honest question.

It can't be an "honest question" because it doesn't even make sense.

So you are either:

1. Ignorant and just blinding repeating talking points as a shill

2. Making up random shit to say about "maths and stuff" because you think it makes you sound smart and makes your favorite unproven ad-hoc system sound secure. It does neither.

Lol, this is the first time I've been called a shill.

I own some Bitcoin and Monero, never been in the Darkcoin forums, I'm what you could call a Monero supporter (look at my history if it helps). I think you assumed incorrect things about me.  

[whocares]

How do you ever attract new users? Or is it okay to attract new users but not new critics?

Nope, I'm just a little curious about the sudden interest of your community   . What was the reason behind this ?

Perhaps instead we should discuss Darkcoin on our own hosted forum and delete the "false claims, lies and biased opinions" any Darkcoin supporters might post in response?

You know very well what I mean as "false claims, lies and etc.." and just suggested you a place where you can discuss/exchange an information with technically educated individuals..
 
If there is a possibility/risk of fraud you should confirm your claims with evidences.
There was a problem with the diff adjustment and we are aware what happened then.
Now you should prove that Evan/his friends keep the instamine or they already sold it at symbolic price to help with the distribution..
You should also provide an evidence that DS is traceable if it's that simple, just do a simple Python deanonymizer and crack it..

Explain also about the problematic masternodes network ? What are your worries about it ?
Did you ever see the Kristov Atlas security review about DS and Evan's reply ?

Probably some other things I didn't think of in 30 seconds.

I'm interested about what did you already improved over the basic CN different than some bug fixes here and there and some other "minor" modifications ?
You should provide also a peer review of the Moneros implementation of CN ? Level of resistance for the different attack vectors and etc ...

[smooth]

How do you ever attract new users? Or is it okay to attract new users but not new critics?

Nope, I'm just a little curious about the sudden interest of your community  . What was the reason behind this ?

Not that I know of, particularly, although I did take note of the aggressive and arrogant attitude of DRKers your developer decided to shit over another coin community (dashcoin) by paying its developer to abandon it without so much as even addressing them directly, and didn't like the whole vibe of it one bit. That encouraged me to a closer look at what other shadiness is going on over there.

I can't speak for others.

Perhaps instead we should discuss Darkcoin on our own hosted forum and delete the "false claims, lies and biased opinions" any Darkcoin supporters might post in response?

You know very well what I mean as "false claims, lies and etc.." and just suggested you a place where you can discuss/exchange an information with technically educated individuals..

Those technically educated individuals are welcome to come here to nice neutral forum. Perhaps if they engaged with the community instead of retreating to a walled garden, your coin's thread wouldn't be such a cesspool of pumpers and fanboys.

I'm snipping all the nonsense you posted about the darkcoin instamine scam because its not relevant here. There are threads for that (including one I created), you are welcome to post there instead of spamming.

I'm interested about what did you already improved over the basic CN different than some bug fixes here and there and some other "minor" modifications ?

Not a whole lot, because the system is very well designed to begin with. What would be the purpose to change that  other than to play the altcoin feature pumping game, which doesn't interest us. We are focusing on incremental improvements, greater robustness, improved APIs, etc.

You should provide also a peer review of the Moneros implementation of CN ? Level of resistance for the different attack vectors and etc ...

No thank you. I find these altcoin "peer review" efforts to be a little more than marketing for pumpers.

We have an academic review of the white paper and the original cryptonote white paper has mathematical proofs which have been reviewed by us and others. The code has been and continues to be security reviewed by us and outside experts. That is sufficient imo.

 

[Lebubar]

Let's ignore DarkCoin.
 

LOL

So why 2 of your devs pass hour and hour in our thread, and bashing us on reddit??

For your information thanks to them I'll never ever invest a $ in this shitcoin and speak about this to all my friends:

Smooth, as someone who holds some Monero (less and less over time, admittedly), you make me very nervous with the amount of time you spend in the Dash thread slandering other developers instead of working on your own technology.  You and Fluffypony need to figure out that if you put more of your time into development, and show that your technology a positive future, the community will see this promise and will defend the tech for you- as has happened with Dash.  Their developers don't get involved in circular arguments that waste everyone's time on anonymous message boards ("You prove this", "No, you prove this", etc).  They focus on improving their product and they get things done.  Positivity will trump negativity every time.

I understand that you have "concern" that people are choosing the "wrong" technology, and that you're "concerned" for late-comers about the amount of coins released early on.  I came in "late" and I researched all of the facts and I still invested in Dash.  You come off as very greedy and obviously aren't concerned for anyone other than yourself.  As an investor in your product, I ask you to please worry about your own project and don't come here making up reasons to bash someone else's. 

Well, I think I'm gonna like having you around

Hey, thanks.  I'll be around for a while.  I have them all ignored now, but I just couldn't resist letting the Monero developer know what I thought about the way he chooses to use his time as someone who once thought Monero possibly had a future.  I had been slowly getting out of Monero for some time and after seeing how the devs have acted the past few days (Fluffypony bashing Dash on Reddit non-stop, and Smooth spending literally 10+ hours in this thread today alone) I'm fully out and done with them. I don't know how anyone can possibly think Monero has a any sort of long term future with those two jealous greedy children being the main developers.

I think that more people think this way...

First and last post here, bye...

[BlockaFett]

...

...

I'm interested about what did you already improved over the basic CN different than some bug fixes here and there and some other "minor" modifications ?
You should provide also a peer review of the Moneros implementation of CN ? Level of resistance for the different attack vectors and etc ...

[smooth]

last post here, bye...

[GingerAle]

the short answer = resources. What darkcoin does can be broken with enough resources (massive analysis efforts and masternode control etc).

IMO, it hasn't been attacked because there is no incentive yet. No one has actually done anything with it yet that would warrant an investigation from law enforcement agencies.

Resources as in deep pockets. You have to buy a lot of DASH/DRK to secure a good percentage of the 2300 masternodes in operation (it's about $5k per masternode today), and you'll drive up the price almost surely. Then, while you attack the network as a nefarious masternode (presumably by analyzing traffic and exposing Dashsend mixes) you'll sacrifice your investment, if only for a while. To what end? Most likely, just to demonstrate a vulnerability. Since it's software that runs on a 2-tiered network, you'll just cripple the features provided by the second tier (Dashsend and Instant-X) while the Bitcoin-based blockchain keeps humming along. Meanwhile the developers fix the software and roll it out to the network, which typically reaches supermajority with the latest version within about 6 hours. Note that this has already happened a few times when masternode authentication and payment enforcement had some vulnerabilities that were corrected.  

So please, I relish the thought of someone doing this, because in the long run it will serve to harden the DASH network.  

I really don't get this argument. 2300 * 5k = $11.5 million. Woopity friggin doo. A drop in the bucket for any government, if they went this route (as opposed to just getting amazon or whatever server to shutdown services). You write as if the ones that would launch such a network attack are the same ones that are pushing forward the frontier of decentralization / new money. You write as if the ones hoping to bring down the network are the same ones trying to wrestle control of our valuation systems from oligarchies / aristocrats / silver spoon / whatever. Comments like these make me realize that some people really don't understand what is going on with cryptocurrencies, or they did at one point and they've forgotten the dream.

As a new observer, what I see happening with all of these scams (paycoin is a big one) is everyone else on this frontier is looking over and going "woooh dude. what the heck are you doing? Come on - we've got serious stuff to do!". The concern (and the subsequent concern trolling) with darkcoin, in this metaphor, is that there are people building a bridge over the fungibility / privacy canyon in this new frontier, but they're not bridge engineers. And down the way, there are others building bridges - and great! More bridges the better, right? But people are going "wooh dude - you probably shouldn't build your bridge that way" and instead of providing any sort of in-depth response, all of the people waiting for that bridge to be built are just like "naw, it'll be fine!!! You don't know what you're talking about." Its often commented that the monero devs are out there spreading fud or wasting time concern trolling as opposed to developing their coin. First, WTF? We're all in this together! Second, I'd rather see a dev addressing questions or quelling concern - these are the ones that know how to build bridges! I'd love to see an actual response from a darkcoin dev of substance! The closest we got was:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=979315.0

and the darkcoin dev left it with: "ok, you build that python script".... so the goddamn bridge engineer hasn't even run the stress tests himself?


I aint walking over that bridge.



And these are my opinions. I don't speak for monero. I like monero because these are the things I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA

[Grim]

which cpu miner is recommended these days? still yam m7v?

tia

----
i7 4770

somebody for sure knows what cpu miner is best

You answered your own question. YAM M7V is the miner I run, with the exact same CPU as yours.
(YAM version 8 is less stable and slower on my particular machine and OS, so I stick with m7v)

ty
what is the lowest donation interval that can be set?