|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
 |
June 11, 2014, 06:07:58 PM |
|
But something should be done. While we a talking bot owners are mining. I am not very satisfied with the fact that we discussing the ways how to save the coin while bots are mining. It appears that we are now working to protect their wealth. This is not a normal situation.
Ironically, I very much agree!! This is why I'm pressing our friend Bill to at least communicate to us their intents. We at least need an immediate resolution to the difficulty-warp attack. Multiple approaches to mitigation of this vector have been proposed, discussed, and even mostly agreed upon. (Does anyone still *not* think that we should constrain timestamp and return to a traditional difficulty retarget with an upward pressure to ensure blocks can eventually be mined? (regardless of the timestamp bias arguments...)) Why we're sitting here arguing over my "N-heads" patch instead of rushing out a hotfix and hard fork for what is unquestionably the greatest risk to this coin is beyond me. I just ran some quick numbers on what it would cost me, in terms of both time and energy spend, to fork the network back to block 1. You don't even want to know the results. Suffice to say that this is a critical issue and everything else should come second to it! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
minim1ner
Newbie
 Offline
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 06:35:45 PM |
|
There is no reason to send money to yourself, more likely it is c-cex address |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 06:57:32 PM |
|
There is no reason to send money to yourself, more likely it is c-cex address There are lots of reasons to send money to yourself. Not the least of which, in this context, would be to simply cast doubt as to whether or not you still held it. We know that the origination address was owned by the dev, but we can't say yet for certain who owns the MoLn address. (Perhaps c-cex could state if it is/isn't one of theirs?) If it were a c-cex address I'd expect to see the coins move again at least once, to be consolidated into their backend wallets and/or portioned between hot/cold wallets. It is unusual for coins sent to an exchange to sit indefinitely at their deposit address. |
|
|
|
|
minim1ner
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 07:11:35 PM |
|
There are lots of reasons to send money to yourself. Not the least of which, in this context, would be to simply cast doubt as to whether or not you still held it. We know that the origination address was owned by the dev, but we can't say yet for certain who owns the MoLn address. (Perhaps c-cex could state if it is/isn't one of theirs?)
If it were a c-cex address I'd expect to see the coins move again at least once, to be consolidated into their backend wallets and/or portioned between hot/cold wallets. It is unusual for coins sent to an exchange to sit indefinitely at their deposit address. Any way I think that making this coin bot resistant is pretty difficult task and it deserves bounty whether from devs, and in case if devs have no more coins, then from community. |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 07:20:28 PM |
|
I am mining almost alone now.
What do you mean? There is not really much of coins I've got, just 70k. If you solve this bot issue, I will sell most coins I've mined to devs for price that they dumped, and hope other guys will support me.
Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins... |
|
|
|
|
minim1ner
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:23:19 PM |
|
What do you mean? I mean that there is not really big crowd of people with bots for now. Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins... Coin needs support form devs, and if they made a mistake selling all coins in panic, comunity may restore part of this loss. Or maybe we could promote another bounties for coin improvement, as we definately need it. |
|
|
|
|
|
Acidyo
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:24:41 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer.  |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:37:57 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:48:17 PM |
|
What do you mean? I mean that there is not really big crowd of people with bots for now. Ah, yes. From what I can tell your bots and my bots together make up the bulk of the hash rate.... I'm actually working on something similar to the graphs WilliamLie produced earlier, but with points colored by which bot is which. Why on earth would you sell discounted coins to the devs to replace the coins they sold themselves??? It is not like they didn't get btc for their coins... Coin needs support form devs, and if they made a mistake selling all coins in panic, comunity may restore part of this loss. Or maybe we could promote another bounties for coin improvement, as we definately need it. Devs should support their coin whether they panic sold their stake or not. The community paying them for their mistake seems silly to me, particularly considering they already "took" the remaining bounty and giveaway coins from that community. I'm all for the idea of offering up bounties to the community at large, however. Whatever gets the problems fixed fastest, we should do that. (We can't really know what that is, though, until the devs state their intents.) |
|
|
|
|
wilppuse
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:51:36 PM |
|
Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?
|
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:56:43 PM |
|
Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?
Sure, this is possible, but what would it accomplish? |
|
|
|
|
wilppuse
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 08:59:59 PM |
|
Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?
Sure, this is possible, but what would it accomplish? It would be harder to add random set of rules to bots code each level? Or would it be just easy for them to analyze slightly randomized game physics as it is to anlalyze level layout as it is? EDIT: or lets say random gravity fluctuation would accur mid-level, when there is 1/2 time left so it would hinder bots pathfinding? |
|
|
|
|
|
Acidyo
|
|
June 11, 2014, 09:02:15 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist? |
|
|
|
|
wilppuse
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
|
|
June 11, 2014, 09:07:24 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist? I would guess GO, if startup scenario is randomised. Humans are still generally better than computers at it. |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 09:13:31 PM |
|
Im just throwing stuff in the wind here.. but what if there would be a way to extrapolate information from each block and with that adding slight changes to game physics? like each level gravity could fluctuate between 0.9994-1.0006? Impossible?
Sure, this is possible, but what would it accomplish? It would be harder to add random set of rules to bots code each level? Or would it be just easy for them to analyze slightly randomized game physics as it is to anlalyze level layout as it is? This wouldn't hinder any bots at all. The current generation of bots just "wouldn't care" and the next generation of bots would just learn to adapt EDIT: or lets say random gravity fluctuation would accur mid-level, when there is 1/2 time left so it would hinder bots pathfinding?
This could certainly introduce more difficulty for the bots, as it would introduce a modal condition, but not by much. Humans would probably have a more difficult time coping with the change than bots would. |
|
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 09:14:17 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist? Any "perfect information" game (where the entire challenge is presented to the player up front) would not have this "cheat" available to bots. |
|
|
|
|
|
psychocoin
|
|
June 11, 2014, 09:16:54 PM
Last edit: June 11, 2014, 09:34:31 PM by psychocoin |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist? Humans in any game (even GO) will be beaten by computers eventually if there is enough incentive (monetary reward in this case) to do so. I think instead of a futile search for a "bot-proof" game, we should be thinking of a game/challenge that could be INTERESTING to solve through programming a bot, with many different possible approaches, where a "smarter" bot with fewer hardware/energy resources available could easily out-mine bots that have much more resources available but use more primitive approaches. This game/challenge would also naturally grow in complexity over time in a manner that would make it difficult for bot designers to predict and quickly adjust to. Ideally this game/challenge/problem would not even be something arbitrary but somehow contribute towards cutting edge AI and machine learning research in general. Which in turn would attract the world's leading researchers and the most talented programmers to work together in pushing the limit of machine intelligence. How about that? |
|
|
|
|
HunterMinerCrafter
|
|
June 11, 2014, 10:12:00 PM |
|
Someone should do something similar like this one but with Subway Surfer. I've not played it, but did a quick google to get the idea of it. This is possible, but I see a real problem here... part of the challenge of subway surfer appears to be that it is not a "perfect information" challenge, much of what makes it difficult is that the player doesn't know what will be coming up next. Bots would be able to "look ahead" down the track indefinitely, which would give them a huuuuuuuge advantage compared to humans. (It would make the moto bots' overwhelming of humans look trivial.) What simple games are out there that are cheat-proof? Do any of those exist? Humans in any game (even GO) will be beaten by computers eventually if there is enough incentive (monetary reward in this case) to do so. I think instead of a futile search for a "bot-proof" game, we should be thinking of a game/challenge that could be INTERESTING to solve through programming a bot, with many different possible approaches, where a "smarter" bot with fewer hardware/energy resources available could easily out-mine bots that have much more resources available but use more primitive approaches. This game/challenge would also naturally grow in complexity over time in a manner that would make it difficult for bot designers to predict and quickly adjust to. Ideally this game/challenge/problem would not even be something arbitrary but somehow contribute towards cutting edge AI and machine learning research in general. Which in turn would attract the world's leading researchers and the most talented programmers to work together in pushing the limit of machine intelligence. How about that? MOTO could easily become that. If we solve the difficulty time warp problem it might already be. |
|
|
|
|
domob
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1135
Merit: 1170
|
|
June 12, 2014, 05:20:59 AM |
|
I think instead of a futile search for a "bot-proof" game, we should be thinking of a game/challenge that could be INTERESTING to solve through programming a bot, with many different possible approaches, where a "smarter" bot with fewer hardware/energy resources available could easily out-mine bots that have much more resources available but use more primitive approaches.
This game/challenge would also naturally grow in complexity over time in a manner that would make it difficult for bot designers to predict and quickly adjust to.
Ideally this game/challenge/problem would not even be something arbitrary but somehow contribute towards cutting edge AI and machine learning research in general. Which in turn would attract the world's leading researchers and the most talented programmers to work together in pushing the limit of machine intelligence.
How about that?
In general, I think this is a cool idea. Although, I see two problems (that may be solvable but need at least additional consideration from my point of view): - I already wrote it above, and still believe it is true: Such problems, where the "actual goal" is to give cutting-edge research an order-of-magnitude advantage, is not suited to securing a network of transactions. I wouldn't want to run an exchange and accept a currency that could be 51%-attacked every time someone made a break-through. (HunterMinerCrafter stated himself above that he could 99% Motocoin if he wanted to. While trusting him not to do it is possible, I wouldn't want to have lots of money at stake with that. Then I could just put it into the bank, after all.) Having the currency "just for fun" and not intended/advertised as fully secure (as Motocoin's website still does) makes this point moot.
- While I'm all for promoting research (I'm on a research grant myself, although not related to AI or crypto-currencies but applied mathematics), I also think that results should benefit the community at large (keyword "Open Access publications", for instance). I doubt that the research done for bots on Motocoin or a similar currency would at all be published somehow, as it is in the botters' best interests to keep their results in secret. Why should the community of currency investors pay them for something they research just for their own profit?
|
Use your Namecoin identity as OpenID: https://nameid.org/Donations: 1 domobKsPZ5cWk2kXssD8p8ES1qffGUCm | NMC: NC domobcmcmVdxC5yxMitojQ4tvAtv99pY BM-GtQnWM3vcdorfqpKXsmfHQ4rVYPG5pKS | GPG 0xA7330737 |
|
|
|
