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Author Topic: Intersango Exchange  (Read 76290 times)
Otoh
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August 31, 2012, 08:06:14 AM
 #501

I thought I'd share this PM exchange of today with 'Intersango' as it helps to explain some of the things that were happening earlier this month with their UK bank withdrawals.

Hi,

This account is rarely used. The most reliable way to contact us is the ticketing system. We try to respond readily to tickets and usually we do but there are some backlogs.

I noticed you've had some previous posts about your payments going from 'Requested' status to a 'Processing' status and back to a requested status. This is not because of some fishy business or anything abnormal at all.

Once our UK bank problems had been resolved after weeks of issues, it took us 10 days to catch up with payments out. When payments are are dealt with, the stack of payments are turned from 'Requested' to a 'Processing' status. If we allow users to cancel payments while they are being processed we could be taken severe advantage of and lose our user's payments to theft.

If a daily limit is hit while the payments are processing then the unprocessed payments are put back to 'requested' status. Payments are generally done in order but not always for various reasons. If there is incredible lag sometimes a single payment can take 10 minutes to make, in that case higher value payments are prioritized.

There are a lot of issues like these and we simply cannot communicate all these nuances as well as maintain service. Right now we are pursing finding out 5th payment gateway for just the UK alone in the last year and a half I believe. Many people take things that we would never think of and turn them into somehow being suspicious behavior.

We are trying to provide good service while trying to be a sustainable business. We are learning from our mistakes and trying to preempt issues but these issues are the reason bitcoin exists. 


Hi,

Many thanks for your reply & explanation, I will post it to your Intersango thread as I believe it would be helpful for others who may have been in the same position or were wondering what was happening & why. I wish you good luck with finding a UK bank that can work for you & am looking forward to using Intersango again once you find one.

All the best & for the conference too,

Otoh

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willphase
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September 01, 2012, 01:04:59 PM
 #502

Received my GBP withdrawal today.  Metro bank problems still manifesting, or did you guys sort that out?

Cheers,

Will

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September 02, 2012, 11:29:55 PM
 #503

Received my GBP withdrawal today.  Metro bank problems still manifesting, or did you guys sort that out?

Cheers,

Will

It looks like deposits have been stopped but withdrawals are still happening??

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September 03, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
 #504

Received my GBP withdrawal today.  Metro bank problems still manifesting, or did you guys sort that out?

Cheers,

Will

It looks like deposits have been stopped but withdrawals are still happening??

The accounts still open (I assume because it's the weekend).

It could close at any moment so I wouldn't suggest transferring funds into it.
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September 14, 2012, 08:27:53 PM
 #505

Here's a thread in the German forum.  

The assertion is that an attempt to send a deposit to Intersango's bank in Polant was rejected.

Here's the Google Translate of that post to English:

Quote
Rejection due to regulatory requirements

After several successful referrals to Intersango now came the first time a "rejection due to regulatory requirements." This is the writing of my norisbank: # # # # Below transfer order has returned the given them the beneficiary's bank: Reason for return: rejection due to regulatory regulations receiver: Intersango LTD recipient IBAN: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX BIC: WBKPPLPPXXX amount: EUR 700.00 Purpose: Intersango Bitcoins XXXXXXXX # # # # The letter rejected the Polish recipient bank. Yes there are also Mt.Gox and bitcoin-24. So a good target to hinder Bitcoins. Does anyone have any other information?

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109433.0

Is this a new problem, or an isolated incident?

oblongmeteor
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September 14, 2012, 10:37:44 PM
 #506

Right - this may be of interest to some of you. I turned this up on an entirely random unconnected search on Google.

Firstly; this extract from a Topix forum (Link : http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/valium/TEMNUUCTLB0786BGV):

"Big news, be careful Wink

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=24376.120

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/valium/TDB3N8...

Ultrafunkular3 / real_gp_diaz / Intersango being investigated by SOCA for criminal activity.

It's a long story, but it goes like this.

A few weeks ago HSBC got in deep shit with US regulators for being used by criminals to wire money worldwide with no checks or cautions, the US regulators turned up the heat on HSBC and the UK regulators big time and it's all being dragged through the courts at the moment.

A few days back someone used Intersango to buy Bitcoins, they transferred via bank transfer UK GBP from their account into Intersango's Metro account. They got the money into Intersango successfully, got some Bitcoins then used those Bitcoins to buy some drugs.

The drugs never turned up, so the person wanted their money back. They bitched to Metro bank that they had done a transfer into an account of theirs which was to pay someone to buy drugs and that it hadn't worked, so could they have their money back please?(They probably thought this would be funny, but hey it hasn't turned out that way)."

I'm sure most of you know the .onion link is a TOR URI - specifically to the Silk Road forums so be forewarned.

Secondly; For those of you who don't have/ don't want to install ToR to read the rest of the sorry story, here is a copy of one of the more interesting posts:

"So with a little inside information and some basic logic I've been able to piece together what's really happeneing at Intersango.

It's a long story, but it goes like this.

A few weeks ago HSBC got in deep shit with US regulators for being used by criminals to wire money worldwide with no checks or cautions, the US regulators turned up the heat on HSBC and the UK regulators big time and it's all being dragged through the courts at the moment.

A few days back someone used Intersango to buy Bitcoins, they transferred via bank transfer UK GBP from their account into Intersango's Metro account. They got the money into Intersango successfully, got some Bitcoins then used those Bitcoins to buy some drugs.

The drugs never turned up, so the person wanted their money back. They bitched to Metro bank that they had done a transfer into an account of theirs which was to pay someone to buy drugs and that it hadn't worked, so could they have their money back please? (They probably thought this would be funny, but hey it hasn't turned out that way).

The shit hit the fan at Metro Bank, especially with the added heat from regulators they initially just froze but later infact completely closed Intersango's Metro bank account. This is why Intersango initially thought they were having temporary issues and then later on admitted they were being subject to a full investigation and it will take weeks.

After a brief investigation Metro Bank were forced to hand information over to SOCA (The Serious Organized Crime Agency), the British equivalent of the FBI & DEA combined. SOCA are now investigating and planning to bring charges of money laundering and assisting in the supply and sale of class A, B & C substances contrary to the misuse of banned substances XYZ act (not sure exactly) against Intersango.

I'm not sure whether the guy who originally bitched to Metro bank about loosing his money is complying with SOCA and this is why they're able to bring an investigation, my guess is probably yes, they must have got his IP or email address or something and traced it to him.

Anyway I'll keep you guys updated as things develop.

It seems to me something like this was inevitable anyway.

Also on a side note Intersango still haven't fulfilled their legal obligation to file their company accounts which were due on 25/07/2012, so now 3 days overdue:
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/9858dc17db80d4d92f692dc3de29753c/compdetails

Although considering their probably currently sweating in a Met Police cell, this doesn't really surprise me. Also I guess it would be pretty easy to file accounts when they currently stand at -£2 million (permanent SOCA wire transfer lol)."

* Authors note. I've posted the un-redacted posts complete with all the URI's as they were on the source sites. If this is judged to be against the board rules in this context, please redact them.


 
Herodes
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September 14, 2012, 11:32:50 PM
 #507

Sucks to be the Intersango guys at this point I guess.


However I have one question. How the f*ck could Intersango be complicit in assisting the purchase of banned substances ?


If Avg Joe gets 2K punds into his bank account as wages, then goes to an ATM and withdraws 0.5K punds, and he goes to a street dealer and purchases cocaine, how the hell could the bank be blamed for that ? That would never happen, as it is the customer that is to blame, and if there's a police investigation, the bank shall not at all be investigated. That's only logical.

And the same thing with Intersango. Intersango facilitates trades fiat <> btc. How the hell can they be resposible if somebody purchases btc, then withdraw this and buys drugs, explosives, guns or anything else that's illegal ?

If the authorities pin Intersango for this, it looks quite dim for most bitcoin companies selling bitcoins, or exchanges for that matter.

Why can't we just agree that the individual is always responsible for his act?

Should we investigate Dell if said customer used a Dell machine to attempt buy drugs? Heck, perhaps the customer is a criminal and bought his Dell machine just to plan criminal acts. OMG, should we not investigate Dell ?

Could somebody please explain to me exactly why Intersango should be accused of money laundering and drugsale?
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September 15, 2012, 12:22:20 AM
 #508

However I have one question. How the f*ck could Intersango be complicit in assisting the purchase of banned substances ?

vaguely I recall the following info, but can't find the reference anymore; maybe someone can confirm or elaborate?

anyway, "it was said" the guy buying drugs wired to the Intersango account under the impression he'd be directly paying to the drug supplier. He wasn't aware of bitcoins at all. I.e. the drug dealer made it appear as if by wiring to "Intersango", he would directly pay for the drugs.
Herodes
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September 15, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
 #509

....
Could somebody please explain to me exactly why Intersango should be accused of money laundering and drugsale?
You understand how bitcoin, exchanges etc work. The UK cops aren't exactly renowned for ensuring the right party gets punished, just being in the area and from the right country has often been enough for a guilty verdict. Doubt they would go to a great deal more trouble by understanding how bitcoin works and what actually happened when they can just grab the first link in the chain and mark the case closed.

Yes, from the experience I have in life, what you say makes perfectly sense.


So the rule must be:

"If you don't want to lose, don't play the game"
Herodes
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September 15, 2012, 12:31:56 AM
 #510

However I have one question. How the f*ck could Intersango be complicit in assisting the purchase of banned substances ?

vaguely I recall the following info, but can't find the reference anymore; maybe someone can confirm or elaborate?

anyway, "it was said" the guy buying drugs wired to the Intersango account under the impression he'd be directly paying to the drug supplier. He wasn't aware of bitcoins at all. I.e. the drug dealer made it appear as if by wiring to "Intersango", he would directly pay for the drugs.

I head another twist of that story, some douchebag was asking people to send him money to Intersango, with the reference to his account, then he would purchase bitcoins, and withdraw them. No drugs would ever be sent to anyone.

If that's the case, and judging from the previous history of the Intersango guys, and how they deal with things, it's no wonder this happened. Deposits should be limited to verified accounts, and funds should only be allowed to come from verified bank accounts connected to those verified Intersango accounts. A pain in the ass, yes, but then you would avoid all this stuff.

If some account starts receiving funds from a lot of accounts, then this account shold be freezed for manual investigation, heck if the name of the exchange account holder and the name of the sender of the bank deposit doesn't match, it should be frozen for investigation immediately.

And of course, if some idiot complains to the bank he tried to purchase drugs by sending money to Intersango, he's not only incriminating himself, but also Intersango. Intersango is just a small fry for any bank, and they couldn't care less, so the Intersango guys would need to look after themselves to try to stay under 'the radar'.
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September 17, 2012, 08:48:09 AM
 #511

Lots of BS can be eliminated by allowing funds in and out from only 1 bank account.
If you close your primary bank account, new account can be added and same rule applies. Probably some paperwork has to be produced to show, that account really is closed.
As simple as that. And guess what, it also adds an extra layer of security.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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September 17, 2012, 04:28:41 PM
 #512

Lots of BS can be eliminated by allowing funds in and out from only 1 bank account.
If you close your primary bank account, new account can be added and same rule applies. Probably some paperwork has to be produced to show, that account really is closed.
As simple as that. And guess what, it also adds an extra layer of security.

Does that still allow the scammer to arrange a bunch of individual sales, opening a new Intersango account for each one?  Each Intersango account only receives deposits from a single bank account that way, and business continues for the scammer as before.

Herodes
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September 17, 2012, 07:47:25 PM
 #513

Lots of BS can be eliminated by allowing funds in and out from only 1 bank account.
If you close your primary bank account, new account can be added and same rule applies. Probably some paperwork has to be produced to show, that account really is closed.
As simple as that. And guess what, it also adds an extra layer of security.

Does that still allow the scammer to arrange a bunch of individual sales, opening a new Intersango account for each one?  Each Intersango account only receives deposits from a single bank account that way, and business continues for the scammer as before.

Tow rules could be added to prevent this.

1. An IP can have no more than 1 account.
2. An account can only be accessed from the same IP as the signup, unless the account is verified, then the account holder could select to add more allowed ip's, or set 'no ip restrictions'.

Thus, to continue the fraud scheme, the fraudsters needed to verify each new account, and using new IP with each account. When victim deposits money, there could be an investigation because of unknown IP.

Measures can be discussed, and it's hard to find the perfect system, but it does seem to me that the Intersango team could not be arsed to put any anti-fraud measures in place. Perhaps they did, but I do not know about it and can only judge by what I've heard and seen, and it's not good.
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September 18, 2012, 07:43:33 AM
 #514

Lots of BS can be eliminated by allowing funds in and out from only 1 bank account.
If you close your primary bank account, new account can be added and same rule applies. Probably some paperwork has to be produced to show, that account really is closed.
As simple as that. And guess what, it also adds an extra layer of security.

Does that still allow the scammer to arrange a bunch of individual sales, opening a new Intersango account for each one?  Each Intersango account only receives deposits from a single bank account that way, and business continues for the scammer as before.

Tow rules could be added to prevent this.

1. An IP can have no more than 1 account.
2. An account can only be accessed from the same IP as the signup, unless the account is verified, then the account holder could select to add more allowed ip's, or set 'no ip restrictions'.

Thus, to continue the fraud scheme, the fraudsters needed to verify each new account, and using new IP with each account. When victim deposits money, there could be an investigation because of unknown IP.

Measures can be discussed, and it's hard to find the perfect system, but it does seem to me that the Intersango team could not be arsed to put any anti-fraud measures in place. Perhaps they did, but I do not know about it and can only judge by what I've heard and seen, and it's not good.

online deposits to intersango would come from the banks ip ,the customer would innitiate it from his bank first
and they would dump the funds into intersangos

ip addresses are too easily manipulated anyway to rest security upon,especially in the uk where addresses are
dynamic and if using mobile broadband like 3g you get a differnt one every few minutes .........

thats without even using proxies or tor so the current system is fairly wide open to abuse
Herodes
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September 18, 2012, 01:13:38 PM
 #515

Lots of BS can be eliminated by allowing funds in and out from only 1 bank account.
If you close your primary bank account, new account can be added and same rule applies. Probably some paperwork has to be produced to show, that account really is closed.
As simple as that. And guess what, it also adds an extra layer of security.

Does that still allow the scammer to arrange a bunch of individual sales, opening a new Intersango account for each one?  Each Intersango account only receives deposits from a single bank account that way, and business continues for the scammer as before.

Tow rules could be added to prevent this.

1. An IP can have no more than 1 account.
2. An account can only be accessed from the same IP as the signup, unless the account is verified, then the account holder could select to add more allowed ip's, or set 'no ip restrictions'.

Thus, to continue the fraud scheme, the fraudsters needed to verify each new account, and using new IP with each account. When victim deposits money, there could be an investigation because of unknown IP.

Measures can be discussed, and it's hard to find the perfect system, but it does seem to me that the Intersango team could not be arsed to put any anti-fraud measures in place. Perhaps they did, but I do not know about it and can only judge by what I've heard and seen, and it's not good.

online deposits to intersango would come from the banks ip ,the customer would innitiate it from his bank first
and they would dump the funds into intersangos

ip addresses are too easily manipulated anyway to rest security upon,especially in the uk where addresses are
dynamic and if using mobile broadband like 3g you get a differnt one every few minutes .........

thats without even using proxies or tor so the current system is fairly wide open to abuse


Naturally, I was only discussing certain measures that could be implemented, not that they would be perfect.  I don't know why you talk about bank deposit and IP-adresses. When a customer pays through a bank to Intersango, the payment goes from bank to bank, and Intersango is not part of that system. Intersango merely holds a bank account, so the only thing Intersango can try to do is to increase security on their side.

For instance if an Intersango account has an associated name, then payments from any other name should be rejected, and to attempt to prevent anyone to make several accounts, there should be some restrictions, and some of these restrictions may not be perfect (ie. IP-based), but still, having zero restrictions is not smart.

But they already have a trust issue anyway, who would send their ID to Intersango at this point ?
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September 18, 2012, 03:54:33 PM
 #516

Dam it - just stupidly deposited some btc into my intersango account to sell for £, then I realised I couldnt get it back out so had to sell back to btc and move it out.... luckly was only a small amount otherwise I'd be truely pissed at the loss I just made.

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September 19, 2012, 08:16:31 PM
 #517

Regardless, this is a real pain in the obvious.  The Arb opportunities are excellent at the moment but if you cant get your cash out its irrelevant!

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September 22, 2012, 11:14:39 AM
 #518

Having read the last couple of pages of this thread I understand why PhantomCircuit did not want to link me to this thread.
Also no response from Intersango to any of the allegations made in this thread look bad.
Thanks to Steven Gornick for linking to this thread elsewhere.

from an other thread:
is there a thread for the current issue?

i searched couldn't find one but i don't want to make a new thread.

Why would you even need a thread?

Whenever there is news it will be posted to https://support.intersango.com/status

pretty promise
dont need a thread but would like a thread to ask questions. such as why you are being an arsehole?

Intersango are sitting on my GBP and i would like to make a decision should i close my account and receive my GBP by cheque or should i allow you to continue holding my cash.

Whenever there is news it will be posted to https://support.intersango.com/status

pretty promise

I cant make a serious decision based on the information in that link.


Ok, so i have some question.

I can see on the status page that transfers are not available but this does not tell me enough about what is happening.

Some basic information would be helpful: (Tansparency is good even if it means you have to admit mistakes or problems)

Have Intersango team made enquiries about a new banking account for Intersango?
Have they got any banks approval to do business with them?
If so
how far in this process are they?
How long is the process expected to take?

Are the allegations of drug dealing causing problems in establishing a new banking account?

In ToS there is provision to close account and be paid by cheque, is this still available?



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September 23, 2012, 11:06:19 AM
 #519

At this point nobody from Intersango regularly reads (much less responds to) the posts on the forum.

If you want an answer to a specific question you should open a support ticket https://support.intersango.com/
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September 23, 2012, 07:20:03 PM
 #520

At this point nobody from Intersango regularly reads (much less responds to) the posts on the forum.

It's difficult to deal with criticism, huh ?
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